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Brad Close Sackbut
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:58 am
by TuckerWoerner
Has anyone had the chance to try these? They look the part, and the are priced at a very competitive rate. Sometimes things seem too good to be true. I have always had a great experience working with Noah. I have not yet worked with Brad, but from what I can tell he is great as well. Any and all feedback on the horns would be appreciated.
Re: Brad Close Sackbut
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:40 am
by Posaunus
I tried one of Brad's sackbuts (perhaps his first public showing?) at the 2017 ITA in Redlands, and was VERY impressed. But - I am not a current sackbutist; I played one for a few years decades ago (on a borrowed historic instrument), and haven't had the oportunity since. Nevertheless, Brad's superb craftsmanship was evident, and his sackbut was very attractive. And he's probably improved the design since 2017. If I had a place to play one, I'd buy it now!
Re: Brad Close Sackbut
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:55 am
by Burgerbob
I have only heard really positive things from sackbuttists.
Re: Brad Close Sackbut
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:02 pm
by bbocaner
A player in my group just got his latest one. It plays very well. Very similar feel and sound to the Ewald Meinl Drewelwecz model it is based on. Slide is pretty good. Decoration is pretty basic and the overall fit and finish looks a little bit “rustic” compared to Ewald Meinl or Egger, but this is cosmetic and it probably looks more like a 16th or 17th century original does than a more polished modern reproduction does. Most important thing is it feels and sounds great.
Re: Brad Close Sackbut
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:45 pm
by LeTromboniste
Haven't had the chance to try them yet but I hear many good things from those who have, perhaps most importantly that his methods and the quality of the result have been refined over the last couple years and they are now even better than when he launched them.
The price is very attractive, I would say if you don't have the budget for a Egger or Meinl or Vajna, better get one from Brad soon before the prices inevitably go up. I've been considering getting a D bass from him as it's half the price of a Meinl or Egger and about a third or quarter of the price of a Vajna...
The tenor and the two bass model look good, and they are the ones I heard good things about. The alto's bell (at least the one he took pictures of) looks wrong - I remember him saying in the old forum that he didn't have technical drawings for the alto, only the measurements, which would explain that the taper is not right.
Re: Brad Close Sackbut
Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:36 pm
by brassmedic
Thanks for your interest. I'm attaching some pictures of the Drewelwecz tenor model. Yes, I have made some improvements to the design. I am trying as much as possible to build accurate representations of the originals. I have tweaked a few things slightly for the sake of intonation. Maximilian is right that the prototype alto had too big of a bell throat. I'm making them much closer to the original Hieronimus Starck alto now. These are entirely hand built. The bells are hand hammered with a scraped finish. I have changed the style of engraving to be more appropriate for the time period. It's a lot of work, though, so the price will be a bit higher for full engraving. I think "rustic" is a pretty good description. They don't have the factory look that Meinl sackbuts have. I think it's more along the lines of what van der Heide does. Hope you enjoy the pics!
Brad Close
Sackbut.jpg
Sackbutbrace.jpg
Sackbutbell2.jpg
Re: Brad Close Sackbut
Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:38 pm
by brassmedic
sackbutinside.jpg
Sackbutplans.jpg
Re: Brad Close Sackbut
Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:05 pm
by Posaunus
Brad,
You're really wanting to make me take up the sackbut again (after decades away).
Please someone hire me for a lucrative gig so I can justify the purchase!
Re: Brad Close Sackbut
Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:02 am
by LeTromboniste
brassmedic wrote: ↑Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:36 pm
Thanks for your interest. I'm attaching some pictures of the Drewelwecz tenor model. Yes, I have made some improvements to the design. I am trying as much as possible to build accurate representations of the originals. I have tweaked a few things slightly for the sake of intonation. Maximilian is right that the prototype alto had too big of a bell throat. I'm making them much closer to the original Hieronimus Starck alto now. These are entirely hand built. The bells are hand hammered with a scraped finish. I have changed the style of engraving to be more appropriate for the time period. It's a lot of work, though, so the price will be a bit higher for full engraving. I think "rustic" is a pretty good description. They don't have the factory look that Meinl sackbuts have. I think it's more along the lines of what van der Heide does. Hope you enjoy the pics!
Brad Close
Sackbut.jpg
Sackbutbrace.jpg
Sackbutbell2.jpg
Wow, beautiful work! For what it is worth there's something annoying about the perfect factory finish of Egger, this hand made, artisan look has a lot more charm. This very much compares to the most well finished Van der Heide I've seen. I kinda wish I needed another tenor now...
This may not be the right place to ask about this, but I'm curious, as I understand that you do not spin the bells, and I'm curious to know why you chose to make them that way. I know it's a somewhat contentious issue among makers and organologists. I haven't seen museum pieces close enough, but I'm told by people who have inspected many, many, that a very large number of historical trombones and trumpets have either spinning marks or more subtle indications that they were spun (the pattern of stretching of the teeth in the bell seam for example).
Re: Brad Close Sackbut
Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:10 pm
by brassmedic
That's interesting. I always welcome any new information I can get about the historical instruments. I have seen spin marks on sackbuts, like this one for example:
But that is 150 years after the Drewelwecz sackbut. I wasn't aware of anyone claiming to have seen spun bells from the 16th century. I'd be interested to find out which instruments you're talking about. I don't know if Byron Pillow made it over to this forum, but he has seen that spun bell up close, as well as the others in that collection.
I don't think van der Heide, Meinl, or Egger spin their bells. It definitely makes a difference. Everyone who has tried my sackbuts has commented that they play like they expect a reproduction to play, and do not have that modern trombone feel that some of the less accurate reproductions have.
Re: Brad Close Sackbut
Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:47 pm
by LeTromboniste
brassmedic wrote: ↑Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:10 pm
That's interesting. I always welcome any new information I can get about the historical instruments. I have seen spin marks on sackbuts, like this one for example:
But that is 150 years after the Drewelwecz sackbut. I wasn't aware of anyone claiming to have seen spun bells from the 16th century. I'd be interested to find out which instruments you're talking about. I don't know if Byron Pillow made it over to this forum, but he has seen that spun bell up close, as well as the others in that collection.
I don't think van der Heide, Meinl, or Egger spin their bells. It definitely makes a difference. Everyone who has tried my sackbuts has commented that they play like they expect a reproduction to play, and do not have that modern trombone feel that some of the less accurate reproductions have.
I could be wrong and I should definitely know since I play their instruments and live a short bike ride away from the shop, but I thought Egger uses at least some spinning.
One of the signs for spinning I've heard of - although if I remember right the discussion was about trumpets, not trombones - was that the seam of the bell, gets flattened out and stretched in every direction when hammered, but mostly only longitudinally with little to no sideways stretching when spun, and so that might be a way to tell that a bell was spun rather than hammered even when no clear spinning marks are left on the finished instrument. And that would reportedly be consistent with the seams on many surviving instruments.
Re: Brad Close Sackbut
Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:19 pm
by brassmedic
Well a bell gets hammered whether or not it is spun. The chief difference in flattening the seam is whether it is hammered or rolled flat, but either way, that has to happen before spinning it. I hammer the seam, which I'm sure is how it was done in the renaissance. I know that Egger uses a press to flatten the seam. They also use a hydraulic draw bench to shape the bell. I assumed they didn't spin the bell because it isn't mentioned in that source, but of course that doesn't mean they don't do it, so my assumption could be wrong. Meinl actually has pictures of shaping the bell with a large burnishing tool.
Re: Brad Close Sackbut
Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:38 am
by LeTromboniste
Sorry I wasn't clear. I was speaking of the way of stretching out and forming the bell, not of flattening the seam. Yes the seam will widen when it's flattened of course, but uniformly from end to end a that's before the bell gets any expansion. When the bell is hammered out on an anvil / onto the mandrel, the seam widens more and more in the flare (so that in the end the seam is wider at the bell rim than higher up the bell) as the bell gets stretched open, compared to when it's done with burnishing and spinning spinning - was what I was told.
For my trumpet bell for instance, yes the seam was hammered flat, but then the bell was formed through burnishing with rods and rings, and the flare expanded by spinning on the lathe. I think the only hammering we did was early on to round it out so it would go onto the mandrel at all, but we didn't make the flare by hammering on the anvil.
Re: Brad Close Sackbut
Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:26 pm
by brassmedic
Here are some pics of building sackbuts.
Sackbutrough.jpg
Sackbutscrape.jpg
Sackbutmandrel.jpg
Re: Brad Close Sackbut
Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 11:43 am
by TuckerWoerner
Wow! Thank you for posting this great information. The pictures are very insightful. These instruments look incredible.