TromboneChat

I’d like to start a thread to discuss all things Bach 50. Practically everyone’s owned one or played one, and there are a million weird and wonderful customised version of this classic design out in the world. Many on this forum, in fact!

As someone who loves the sound of a good Bach 50, I have plans to alter my early Elkhart horn to my liking in the near future. In its current form, it’s a little demanding to play, but everyone keeps telling me how much they love the sound, so I persist. Hopefully I can tweak it a little so as to reconcile how it sounds with how it feels at times. More on that later...

Anyhow, to kick things off, tell me about the best Bach 50 you’ve ever played.

I’ll start:

One of my former teachers has an 80’s horn (yellow 9.5 inch bell, standard slide) which he had converted to a very early set of original Thayer valves soon after they started appearing on the market. The horn is very even top to bottom, open but not cavernous, and has a solid core to the sound, but with a wonderful glow and resonance. Very confidence inspiring to play, and projects wonderfully.

Your turn! Tell us about your favourite Bach basses!

Andrew

Oh great. Now I have to remember all of them!

I think I've owned 8, 9... 10? 50s in some sort or another.

I look back fondly on my Corp 50B, which I think was a pretty stellar instrument. Only mod on that horn was a Shires linkage and a Shires counterweight. I'm actually not sure what happened to it... I sold it or traded it somewhere along the line.

I've had a couple other Corp horns that sounded really good, very vintage... I especially remember a 50B2 with stuck tuning slides that had a really amazing core to the sound. But, it was very hard to play, and the sound was really just that one sound. No malleability to it. Fortissimo was nearly impossible.

I quite liked my most recent horn, my 50 with first gen Thayers (like the ones you mentioned), especially with my heavier '90s screwbell and a really beater Edwards dual bore slide. Was this a horn for everything? By no means. But it was very satisfying to play, and in an orchestra section it really filled out that 3rd part. Sadly, all those parts are gone now!

The 50 I'm playing right now is a stock early 2000's 50A3 with a cut tuning slide. It's a little maddening in that it does some things better than almost all other Bachs I've played, but then will let me down with some major flaw (Hagmanns may be my least favorite valve of all time). It also has a strange way of making my Greg Black feel larger than it is... not sure what that's about.

The best 50 I've played was the 50AF3 at NAMM. It felt good, was easy to play, sounded good (hearing other play it as well)... Really no downsides, and better in most aspects than the other boutique horns at the show. I'm sure I could have found some flaws with more time, but at first glance (probably a good 45 minutes of monopolizing it at the show) it was a 9/10 horn out of the box.

I've had a few Bachs.... I always give up on them in the end as they are so hard to play. Best was probably a NY 50. Very used and abused but so sweet to play.Long gone. I have a stacked Corp B2 at the moment... very used but such a good sound and blow. I got that from an ex-student how needed it gone. Intend to move it on but I'm in no rush... a nice thing to blow from time to time.
Chris

I learned to play bass trombone on a 50B3 with a gold brass bell and a light weight slide. I bought it new in October 1987; two 50B3s were delivered to Giardinelli's in NYC the week of my fall break home from college, both with the same configuration. The other one was a dog. The next summer I had the valve tubing open wrapped and the leadpipe pulled and replaced with something from Chuck McAlexander at The Brasslab. Ray Premru liked my Bach pretty well and told me he had bought a single valve version of it at one point, but found it didn't fit with the Conns the tenor players in the Philharmonia played. When I listen back to recordings of myself with it in that configuration I like the sound a lot.

Later on I had the valves replaced with a Thayer conversion, and removing a brace attached to the bell reduced some of the stability. Steve Shires made a "tone tumor" for it to counteract that - essentially a chunk of brass soldered on near the diamond flange.

Then a couple of years later I wore a hole in the slide, and other wear spots started to scare me. I tried a few different slides to replace it and ended up with a prototype from Doug Yeo's Yamaha model. At one point I had a Conn leadpipe in that slide, so there were 4 different manufacturers represented on my trombone. When I was tired there were notes that simply wouldn't speak.

When Steve started his own company and started making bass trombones I bought one and sold what was left of that Bach. I wish I still had it. What I really wish is that I had never had the Thayers put on it and still had it the way I played it for most of college.

----------------------------------

Now I own a very early (4-digit s/n) Corporation 50B - so early I'm sure some parts of it were built in Mt Vernon, and it had the valve lever from there - that has ended up with a single Rotax valve installed with Shires parts for the wrap, but is otherwise factory stock and all yellow brass. It's a great Bach, but is harder to play in the upper register than my Shires configurations. It's seen some wear - scars on the bell from damage - but the slide works great with the right lubrication, and there's a presence to the sound at any dynamic that's outstanding. I bought it from the estate of a Boston trombone player named Dennis Lambert who helped me get started early on in my professional career. RIP Dennis...you left us too young, but you certainly left us with lots of stories.


I used to teach a student whose wife - also an amateur bass trombone player - has an early 70s (11XXX s/n) 50B2 that I've asked them to please sell me if she ever wants to part with it. Easy, even response, and the classic Bach sound. She bought it on a whim at a garage sale and learned to play bass trombone on it. The levers have never even been split.


A couple of years ago I stopped in a Dillon's one day and pulled an older closed wrap 50B3 with a 10.5" gold brass bell off the wall. It played GREAT! Very even sound and response, and note-y excerpts like Fountains just popped out clean as a whistle.


Excellent Bachs are out there. You just have to play them and find one that fits you.

Ooooh, fun.

First bass was a school owned Corp 50B that I had repaired to working condition. Great paper thin bell, easy speaking and a lot of fun. Finally got my own beat up 50B2, a silver plated horn that looked decent after a little work and was generally functional. Was so happy to get an Edwards that I sold it. Probably should have kept it. That Edwards eventually got a Bach flare as it always seemed to be missing something... then I went back in to the Bach world with both feet.

Next with an early Elkhart B2 with a 10.0” gold flare. Split the triggers, got a D extension, tried for a couple of years to fight it before putting Thayers on it, now it is a different type of fight. Got an opportunity to pick up a NY 50B that is absolutely stunning. It has had some repairs done, the ferrules on the slide crook aren’t original, but overall is in perfect cosmetic shape now with a great gold finish. Funny how this ancient valve doesn’t push back the way all of the more modern ones do. I have a second period valve section that I’ll make into a drop in valve one of these days, but I just haven’t felt the need to even interface to this horn beyond putting it on my face and blowing. Though, I will admit that I currently play it with an M&W slide that was made as a replacement for a different vintage bass.

Of these, they are all different, but which is best? I suppose it depends on what you want to do. The NY 50 has the best ‘wallow in your own sound’ moments, but it requires more consistent effort to play at peak. The silver 50B2 was a tank that always responded the same regardless of input, for better or worse.

Cheers,
Andy

I cut my teeth in university on a late 90's 50T3. It came initially with a nickel slide. I never really produced the sound I wanted on it, until one day I tried my teachers standard weight Bach slide on my horn. And it came alive! I ordered a slide the next day. Ultimately I sold the horn, because it always had a slight nasal character that happened around mezzo forte or above, that I could never really tame. Moved on to an Edwards...

My current 50 is an early Elkhart not unlike Gabe's (serial number 85xx) which came to me as a single valve (lever under the thumb). Bell is quite light, and very lightly stamped, except for the "50B" which seems to have been hit a little harder

In an effort to use it more often, but not spend a bucket, I bought a 50b2 valve section from someone who had just done a Greenhoe conversion. He suggested it was Mt Vernon era, but I can't confirm. A stamp on the 2nd valve saddle indicated the triggers were split by Giardinelli, and the 2nd lever has "R.Stewart" stamped in the tiniest font imaginable. The slide for the 2nd valve is clearly hand bent, Minick-style, and is in D. When I had that installed, I had the slide rebuilt. The slide was given new tubes at some point before my ownership, and a Kanstul 169 pipe resides in it these days.

Much like Gabe said about his 50, this horn has real presence, and a sound which I, and others around me seem, to latch on to and gravitate towards. I'm wanting to put another set of valves on it, but these definitely won't be thayers. I'm talking to my tech about some Meinschmidt valves that he's used a bit in the past, and having played the new 42 Centennial with this valve, it seems this may be a good way to go. I want to retain that compact sound, but with a little more evenness across the horn, and a little more resonant feel in the hands. The lack of feedback and resonance in the hands can be a little disconcerting at times, compared to modern horns.

But the sound!!! Lordy...

Andrew

Andrew, that's even a little earlier than mine - s/n 92XX. Nice!

Mine had an attractive but diffuse character to the sound with the original valve. With the Rotax, it still has a softness around the edges but the core is more clear.

My first 50 was issued to me by the Navy in the late 80s. It was probably a B2. I was a tenor player with mainly high chops, but willing to try anything. I played bass in the stage band, and tenor the rest of the time. In that situation, bass trombone meant an occasional low C, and maybe some pedal tones.

I took some time off trombone starting about 2002 until 2013. Maybe in 2014 I realized (reluctantly) I needed a bass bone to fill out a group I was trying to grow. After all that time off, the serious chops I had were long gone, and I had to make do with what I could rebuild in about an hour a day. I picked up a B3 with closed wrap cheap. It felt great, but I thought there was a problem with the horn because it wouldn't play like magic. After a few more horns, I realized it wasn't the horn.

I'm generally not a Bach guy, but there have been some Bach horns that I've liked more than the average. 36b and 50bx have been two of them. I also played a 50a3 Hagmann at a conference that I think I could have gotten comfortable with.

elmsandr wrote: ↑Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:02 pm
Next with an early Elkhart B2 with a 10.0” gold flare. Split the triggers, got a D extension, tried for a couple of years to fight it before putting Thayers on it, now it is a different type of fight. Got an opportunity to pick up a NY 50B that is absolutely stunning. It has had some repairs done, the ferrules on the slide crook aren’t original, but overall is in perfect cosmetic shape now with a great gold finish. Funny how this ancient valve doesn’t push back the way all of the more modern ones do. I have a second period valve section that I’ll make into a drop in valve one of these days, but I just haven’t felt the need to even interface to this horn beyond putting it on my face and blowing. Though, I will admit that I currently play it with an M&W slide that was made as a replacement for a different vintage bass.

Of these, they are all different, but which is best? I suppose it depends on what you want to do. The NY 50 has the best ‘wallow in your own sound’ moments, but it requires more consistent effort to play at peak. The silver 50B2 was a tank that always responded the same regardless of input, for better or worse.

Cheers,
Andy

If you ever want to sell me back that NY 50, let me know. Hands down the best Bach 50 I’ve ever played.

HawaiiTromboneGuy wrote: ↑Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:06 am
If you ever want to sell me back that NY 50, let me know. Hands down the best Bach 50 I’ve ever played.

Well, they say never say never... So I guess I need a thesaurus.

Some horns just have "it".
Andy

elmsandr wrote: ↑Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:30 pm

HawaiiTromboneGuy wrote: ↑Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:06 am
If you ever want to sell me back that NY 50, let me know. Hands down the best Bach 50 I’ve ever played.

Well, they say never say never... So I guess I need a thesaurus.

Some horns just have "it".
Andy

The best Bach 50 I’ve played is... my own.

It started out as a friend/tech’s experimental horn. It was a 50B with a gold bell—I don’t know whether it was a B, a B2, or a B3. The tech had customized the valve ports so that they resembled the old Meinl-Schmidt “Star” valves and rewrapped the crooks to try to make it play more open. He’d also removed the nickel sleeves from the slide to make it lighter. With a slightly heaver G bell and a short open leadpipe, it took a lot to get it going. I bought a used valve and wrap from Ed Thayer, had the tech graft it on, and voilá, I had an independent horn. It was HARD to play, and not very stable, but I worked at it.

About 10 years ago, I bought a 50B2 online. The bell was damaged in transit. Eventually, I sold my Thayer B454 and used the dough to have John Sandhagen do a real job on it. I bought Kanstul CR valves, and asked John to make a new horn with as many of the old parts as possible. He straightened out the bell, and it plays very well. I’ve asked Benn Hansenn to do a more work over the years.

The current set-up: 2 bells that can be interchanged. One is a yellow Corporation, the other is a gold brass post-Corporation, probably early 80’s. The valves are Kanstul CR’s, and the wrap is open. The gooseneck is a custom job by Benn Hansenn. Benn also put some Greenhoe-style braces in the bell section. The slide has a nickel Olsen (Instrument Innovations) 50 crook, an M/K 50 yellow leadpipe, and a screw-on collar adapter.

How does it play? Lots of core, even response, dark natural sound that can be brightened, good slotting, good feedback behind the bell, and it projects very well. Yes, it’s a Bach, and it can sometimes take some effort to get the air moving inside it. People tell me the horn sounds great, but I like to think I have something to do with it, too.

.

My tenor horns are all Edwards. I got my bass when I was young.
Bass Bach 50 Corporation horn. Bb/F/C. The bell is very soft and thin. The horn plays like a dream. Dependent valves old school wrap. C section is larger bore than the F section. Custom open lead pipe made years ago. Stork 1S MP. This horn is 60years old. It was bought in the 70’s from Giardinelli in New York. The sales guy I worked with said the horn was originally a single valve Mount Vernon horn that Giardinelli sent to Bach to add a second valve since they had the horn in stock for years, probably the mid 60’s. There was a solder mark on the receiver where the original lever was. With the new valve the new style twin keys were put on the bell brace. The bell was stamped Elkhorn and Corporation at that time on an angle to the original engraving. There is no serial number; it was lost when the horn was reassembled. The bell is very soft and thin and plays like a dream. The second valve was set up as a dependent Bb/F/E. I had a new tuning slide made with larger tubing in C so now the horn is Bb/F/C. Low C with both valves is in first position and plays very open. Peddle BBb is in a long 3rd and plays easy too. Low B in two trigger long 2nd position is an easy hit. So, in the key of C and the sharp keys the horn is easy to play as the positions are close to the same as with the F valve for C, B, Bb, and A. After I dislocated my left thumb I had the second valve lever moved so I squeeze it near the leadpipe. Looks like a Rube Goldberg project, but it works well. A few years after I bought this horn in line valves became the popular choice. I never changed it because is just works so easy. I mostly play tenor. On this bass I can blend with a full sound or dominate. I play bass more for breath building playing things one and two octaves lower. With both valves a double peddle Ab is around 6th or 7th and sounds nice.
Pics are in my profile.

Anyone have any thoughts on reversing the main tuning slide vs leaving it as is?

Andrew

My horn has a reversed tuning slide. I don’t know what it’s like compard to the standard Bach set up as my horn always had it.

I dont think anyone is going to hear any kind of difference.

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Sat Mar 30, 2019 7:19 am I dont think anyone is going to hear any kind of difference.

Perhaps. But some players swear they can feel/hear the difference with a slide lock removed, or with the water key screw backed off a quarter turn. So I reckon this would have a bigger effect. It's just much harder to A/B test...

Andrew

TheBoneRanger wrote: ↑Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:25 pm Anyone have any thoughts on reversing the main tuning slide vs leaving it as is?

Andrew

I had it done to a Corp era 42G. It didn't improve it at all. In fact I'd say it detracted a little from its sound and playability. Good Bach horns work pretty well in their standard configuration. If it is not a good Bach horn to start with then it is probably something else that needs adjusting rather than the tuning slide.

Back to the Bach 50 - mine is a 4 digit Corp era horn with Greenhoe valves. Its the most resonant horn I've played. It is the standard yellow brass bell. The sound is typical Bach. Warm and solid with edge when required. Easy high and low registers. I've just fitted a Brass Ark MV50 lead pipe which has made it even better.

Interestingly, the mouthpiece that works the best with this lead pipe is a Bach Corp 1.5G. It just feels like it was made for it (which it probably was).

Phil

TheBoneRanger wrote: ↑Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:36 am

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Sat Mar 30, 2019 7:19 am I dont think anyone is going to hear any kind of difference.

Perhaps. But some players swear they can feel/hear the difference with a slide lock removed, or with the water key screw backed off a quarter turn. So I reckon this would have a bigger effect. It's just much harder to A/B test...

Andrew

Anyone who says that playing without a slide lock does nothing hasn't done it before. On every horn I've had it either... A. Makes the horn play better or B. Makes it play like an unfocused pile of trash. No in between. I haven't had a horn where I'd describe taking off the slide lock as doing nothing.

But then again... I am one of those guys who has to have my mouthpiece the same way in my horn every time I play it haha.

Playing without the slide bumper is just ridiculous though... that does nothing!

TheBoneRanger wrote: ↑Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:36 am

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Sat Mar 30, 2019 7:19 am I dont think anyone is going to hear any kind of difference.

Perhaps. But some players swear they can feel/hear the difference with a slide lock removed, or with the water key screw backed off a quarter turn. So I reckon this would have a bigger effect. It's just much harder to A/B test...

Andrew

Don't even get me started on that. Thats right up there with taking off the rubber on the bottom of the slide crook changes the sound too. If people only know exactly how impossible all of that is. You wouldn't believe how much it takes to make an appreciable difference in sound that even carries 10 feet from the player.

mrdeacon wrote: ↑Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:21 am

TheBoneRanger wrote: ↑Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:36 am Perhaps. But some players swear they can feel/hear the difference with a slide lock removed, or with the water key screw backed off a quarter turn. So I reckon this would have a bigger effect. It's just much harder to A/B test...

Andrew

Anyone who says that playing without a slide lock does nothing hasn't done it before. On every horn I've had it either... A. Makes the horn play better or B. Makes it play like an unfocused pile of trash. No in between. I haven't had a horn where I'd describe taking off the slide lock as doing nothing.

But then again... I am one of those guys who has to have my mouthpiece the same way in my horn every time I play it haha.

Playing without the slide bumper is just ridiculous though... that does nothing!

I should be scareful what i ask for

I just don't have the strength to have this argument.

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:10 am

TheBoneRanger wrote: ↑Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:36 am Perhaps. But some players swear they can feel/hear the difference with a slide lock removed, or with the water key screw backed off a quarter turn. So I reckon this would have a bigger effect. It's just much harder to A/B test...

Andrew

Don't even get me started on that. Thats right up there with taking off the rubber on the bottom of the slide crook changes the sound too. If people only know exactly how impossible all of that is. You wouldn't believe how much it takes to make an appreciable difference in sound that even carries 10 feet from the player.

It's not about the sound, it's about the response.

I have done the same with a Shires I used to play- it was much more resonant with the slide lock off. Could people hear that? Probably not, but I liked playing it that way more.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:45 am
It's not about the sound, it's about the response.

I used to think removing the rubber slide bumper was B.S. Then I heard about a teacher who insisted on removing his students’ slide bumpers, and I thought that too was B.S. Then the slide bumper on my bass started falling off—it’s the wrong size. After trying to make it stay on, I gave up, and noticed that I liked the response more without the bumper.

I think that too often people dismiss perception as “just B.S.” Yes, it’s a psycholigical phenomenon, but that doesn’t make it any less real. After all, the placebo effect is real.

One of the weirdest things I've found that makes a difference is... on horns with removable lead pipes making sure the lead pipe is clocked in the correct spot.

I swear that my BrassArk seamed pipe plays better when the seam is at 12 O'clock. I've found the same difference with pulled pipes too.

Obviously, this point is moot if you've got threaded pipes.

Here is some unique mods:



https://www.ebay.com/itm/Bach-Stradavar ... Sw-~tdr3fC

Andrew

I am very tempted to buy that... 50B2 converted to inline on a tight budget, maybe?

I also need to post my current horns here.

That 50AF3 at NAMM might be the best 50 I've played. The other contender is a stock 50A3 a college friend has that KILLED. The 2 different school-owned 50B3Os (one with the 10.5" bell) I learned bass on in high school were fine to my recollection, but I had nothing to compare them to. At this point I think the only other good 50 I've played was a certain forum member's in a certain parking garage. But I haven't played many...I'm a Conn man.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:15 am I am very tempted to buy that... 50B2 converted to inline on a tight budget, maybe?

I immediately thought of you when I saw that listing this morning.

I currently have 3 Bach 50s, like an idiot. Thankfully, all three of them are the best 50s I have owned in one way or another.



The gold bell instrument on the left has been modified with Shires rotors (was a stock 50B3OG). In stock form it wasn't a bad horn, but wasn't one that I especially wanted to play. Now it is a commercial monster of a bass trombone, with a fat, dense, projecting sound that blends up to smaller instruments. It's also ridiculously easy to play with the fastest response of any Bach that I've seen.

The middle horn is my Meinlschmidt section. .615 rotors!! This horn is made to play in an orchestra, and makes a large, consistent sound with a crazy open blow. I have an un-cut Corp bell and a cut Corp bell, both in yellow. The un-cut bell is lighter, very responsive, and sounds great. The cut bell started out the same weight, so now is a bit heavier, a bit slower to respond, and plays better louder. If I don't know what the gig is, this the horn I bring.

Lastly is my "new" Corp 50B, all stock minus a cut tuning slide from a previous owner. This is my 5th single 50 and by far the best in all respects. I'm even saying that with the stock slide, which I usually can't say- the two above horns are played with Edwards and Shires slides. Big, vintage sound, fast response, every range works, huge pedals... Only thing it has against it is 1. only one valve and 2. the balance. I have a counterweight on the way. Still not sure what to do with this one!

If I could, I would mash all three into the same instrument and be happy forever.

Nice horns!

The best 50 I ever heard was Nev Roberts' at the Halle. It must have been one of the first they made and weighed a ton (he once woke up with a locked left arm after a day of Carmina Burana). I had a good one for a while but switched to Conn because I liked the sound better.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:36 am I currently have 3 Bach 50s, like an idiot. Thankfully, all three of them are the best 50s I have owned in one way or another.

Sounds like a great subject for a comparison video...

That's the plan!

The best 50 I ever played belongs to a friend. It is a very early Elkhart 50B single silver plated. The best 50 I ever owned was a late 60's Elkhart double that John Haynor split and ported the valves on in the late 80's. 9 1/2 inch bell and very live. Wish I wouldn't have sold that one and wish my friend would sell me the single.

Yesterday, I caught up with a friend who had recently acquired an Elkhart Conn 62h, and wanted to try a few leadpipes. So I dragged out the box from the spare room, and we played around.

We tried a Bach 50 pipe in the Conn, which was a surprisingly good fit. My friend asked "How does this pipe go in your Bach?" Hmm, not sure, it's probably been 5 years since I've played with pipes (and settled on a Kanstul 169) let's find out!

Duh, it worked really well! Quite a bit bigger sounding than the 169 pipe, a little more linear in terms of dynamics, and definitely capable of more volume. And to think I'd written that pipe off many years ago! Shows how our playing changes over time.

Anyhow, I ordered a Brassark MV50 pipe yesterday, so look forward to seeing how that works out too.

My hope, in the new year, is to do a valve conversion on this horn. Dependent Meinlschmidt rotors is the plan. The hardest part is deciding on a valve wrap. I prefer the valve tubing all on the outside of the horn to maximise clearance around my head and neck, and very few current rotor designs (Yamaha 822, Getzen 1062) are set up that way.

Andrew

I sold my 50B, thankfully. It was a really strangely good single 50... I think the best I have had, and the best I have played. But I need another one like I need another hole in my head.

I have since swapped the slides on my two double-valve 50s. I had been using the single bore Edwards V on the gold bell horn, and my dual bore Shires on the yellow bell horn. It seemed sensible... the lighter, snappier horn gets the smaller slide, the more orchestrally-oriented instrument gets the dual bore.

On a whim I swapped them and voila! The tight, insanely-slotted characteristic of the gold-bell Shires valve bell section is now much tamer and more even. Legato is now possible, which was really fairly difficult before. The orchestral horn got much easier to play in all respects and gained some more core to the sound.

I have used the gold-bell horn a few times now at work and in reading bands. It feels really, really good in a section, seems to punch up rather than down (matching tenors very well) and has lots of core to the sound. It's not ultra-even, below the staff it likes to have a little more color.

The orchestral horn is honestly on the chopping block... I used it recently for a Schumann 3 gig with a smaller orchestra. It was approximately 200% too much instrument for the job and took a lot of finesse to sound good in that situation. It's capable of some of the loudest louds I have ever found in a bass trombone, but even those come at the cost of a lot of air. We'll see about this one.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2019 5:56 pm The orchestral horn is honestly on the chopping block... I used it recently for a Schumann 3 gig with a smaller orchestra. It was approximately 200% too much instrument for the job and took a lot of finesse to sound good in that situation. It's capable of some of the loudest louds I have ever found in a bass trombone, but even those come at the cost of a lot of air. We'll see about this one.

If you can't scale it down for a gig like that, is it really a good horn? A good, middle of the road Bach will keep up with most of the big boys anyway.

I had an Edwards setup like that for a little while, but unless I was cranking it, it was just an overly warm, boring sounding horn. Not to mention heavy...

Andrew

Yup, that's what I'm running into. My other horn can do almost everything the orchestral horn can except soft tissue damage to violists. May be listing those valves for sale soon and trying something else with those bells.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Fri Dec 20, 2019 1:10 am Yup, that's what I'm running into. My other horn can do almost everything the orchestral horn can except soft tissue damage to violists. May be listing those valves for sale soon and trying something else with those bells.

Those valves play stupid good! I can understand your issue with them.

Let me know if you do decide to sell them. I light be interested I still got that 60h valve section that could use some new valves.

I have a Bach 50 from the 60's with original dependent valves. It does supper soft and big and loud as one would need.

My plan is starting to come together…

My Bach 50 adventure is over for the moment. I posted it already, but here's all the bits:

Magic Corp 50 bell
not-quite-as-magic Corp 50 screwbell
Edwards single bore V slide
Shires B62/78
Seamed copper Hoelle tuning slide
Olsen axials, lightweight valve wrap, built by Benn Hansson, Greenhoe fittings

It's by far the best bass trombone I've ever owned. Currently it's being played in full orchestral setup- uncut bell, dual bore slide, Shires #2 leadpipe, but all the other configurations work amazingly well too.

Not much Bach 50 left there, Aidan!

Do you have a Bach tuning slide for that setup too? If so, how do they compare?

Andrew

TheBoneRanger wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:23 pm Not much Bach 50 left there, Aidan!

Do you have a Bach tuning slide for that setup too? If so, how do they compare?

Andrew

The leadpipe currently in the Edwards slide is a new 50 leadpipe, so technically I have two parts!

I don't have any stock tuning slides, since this setup is reversed. I did have a setup with a stock tuning slide and this Hoelle before it was reversed. Overall, the Hoelle was more colorful, better response, better high range... just overall better, so I decided to make it one of the centerpieces of this build. Especially with the reversed leg, it has a really amazing high range, only matched by the top Edwards and Shires basses IMO.

I acquired my first Bach 50, a 1975 Bach 50B2 in 1986 from an older musician friend who had bought it new; after borrowing it for a few weeks I traded him my first bass, a Holton 180, and a number of Ben Franklins for it. I was overjoyed by his accepting my offer because I really loved its weighty, warm, rich sound, and excellent response and flexibility. It was a wonderful horn for Bach cello suites. In the early 90’s I traded a refinished MV Bach 36 for a 50B3 but even though it looked and played fine it lacked the deep, rich sound of the 50B2, so after keeping it for a backup for years I eventually sold it. I played the 50B2 in orchestra for 14 years before visiting Edwards in 2000 and coming back with a complete new Thayer valve tenor for brass quintet and a dual bore bass slide. I had disappointingly been unable to find a bass bell anywhere near as warm as my Bach so I used the Edwards slide with my 50B2 bell for several more years. The slide was definitely an upgrade, making a bigger sound and improved low range. I had stripped the lacquer from the bell flare around 1990, which had helped free up the blow and made playing loud easier, but I still found the double trigger range frustratingly stuffy. Around 2004 I picked up a used 20 gauge, unlacquered yellow brass Edwards 990 bell and a single Edwards Thayer valve section from Jim Bermann, which I also used with my Edwards dual bore slide. I enjoyed the light weight, open blow, and big sound but still had the Bach sound in my head. In 2013, I bought a used O.E. Thayer inline valve section off Trombone Forum and Eric Edwards installed it on my original 1975 bell. It was more free blowing and a bit less extra dark chocolatey thereafter, but plays bigger and more open, especially in the trigger range, is resonant and still sounds very good. In 2016 I had the good fortune to find a 1978 Corporation 50B on eBay that I have enjoyed a lot and used quite a bit. As I have gotten older I really appreciate a light instrument. It came with a lot of spots on the bell like my 50B2 previously had, so I felt reassured in bidding for what may have discouraged some other bidders. It was very resonant and free blowing, felt good in all ranges, with a nice singing sound and other Bach qualities I liked. Not as heavy and dark sounding as the 50B2 had been, though. It strikes me as a bit Conn-like in a user-friendly kind of way, sometimes making me think of how it feels to play my 88h. It vibrates in your hands. I sent it to Eric Edwards, who stripped the bell, modified some bracing on the bell flare, and did some slide work. I love the slide and as a concession to the aging process and an attempt to make my 50 blow less dissimilar to my 42, stopped using the dual bore slide. I had wanted to remove one or both upper diamond braces, and having seen how Jim Bermann had his braced, similar to a Conn or Holton, went with that and it worked out fine, moderating a tendency the bell had to ring on a loud high “A” after the first diamond brace had been removed. My inline Thayer/1975 Bach bell setup has been more recently upgraded by James Baker of Custom Brass in Birmingham resetting the Thayer valves, greatly improving their efficiency. James Baker also expertly rebuilt my 1978 Bach’s “goldilocks” slide, which plays well on just about anything, which from my experience is not to be expected. It works especially well on the 1975 Bach 50 bell/ inline Thayer setup and my 1996 Shires 1YT7 bell with dependent Shires Thayer valve section. I had also briefly owned another fine 1978 50B after my first one, a fine sounding, more open blowing specimen with a dark sound and great big low range, which now belongs to our principal trombone, who would like to put Thayers on it. When I owned that horn, I (purely by happenstance) had two 1978 42B’s as well as two 1978 50B’s at the same time. All good Bachs. I’m down to one of each now after selling the other 42B to a student. I hope I haven’t let this thread idle to long before posting, but I just got around to finishing my reading it. It’s interesting how addictive the Bach sound is, with both the 42’s and 50’s drawing many of us back after trying more “perfected” instruments. I have great appreciation for the gifted techs whose skills help keep our Bachs in contention. In fact I have also become rather attached to my 36B lately, after finding a mouthpiece that makes it more suitable for me to use in brass quintet, and hope to see it improved too.

I’ve been talking about my plans for this build for a number of years now, but it’s finally come to fruition.

Very nice!

Cheers,
Andy

The current collection...

Custom "Benn Monster"

Corp 50T3

50B3OG "Bires," now with Shires Q tuning slide (got this one back!)

50K3LG

Plus another two bells... 3 tuning slides... 4 slides... 2 or so valve sections in various states...

I'm not addicted, don't @ me!

But really, I don't need all of these. Someone buy a couple.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2023 1:51 pm 50B3OG "Bires," now with Shires Q tuning slide (got this one back!)

Having known it both ways, how much of a difference does the Shires TS make?

ithinknot wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2023 5:21 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2023 1:51 pm 50B3OG "Bires," now with Shires Q tuning slide (got this one back!)

Having known it both ways, how much of a difference does the Shires TS make?

Honestly, kind of liked it before. I'd like to see what a full fat Shires TS would be like, and there are some things to be worked in general with that section. Right now it's a mid range beast- insane response, awesome sound, but it gets harder to play down low. Still works but more effort than it should be.