TromboneChat

A couple more pics of my latest build.





This horn came to me as a mid-60’s single valve, with a slide that had new tubes. I eventually put an old (allegedly Mt Vernon) dependent valve section on it for some more facility.

The brief for this build was to get the valve tubing on the outside of the horn, for my own ergonomic reasons, and to make a great sounding horn much easier to play. Many horns with valve tubing on the inside I simply can’t play, and in its previous iteration, the horn was tricky to play, but with a compelling sound.

We went for a classic design, and Meinlschmidt Open Flow valves.

I’ve given it a good shake down over the last few days. It currently has a press-fit (keeping it old school) Brass Ark MV50 yellow brass pipe installed but a gold/seamed version of the same pipe is a little more dense and authoritative, and a Kanstul 169 pipe really makes for an immediate response and slims down the sound somewhat.

I really love the classic, old school lines. My tech did a terrific job making it clean and simple. And it blows really predictably now, with clean articulations and lots of colour. The slide even resonates in my hands now like most modern Shires horns do.

Feels like we nailed the brief with this build. I’m looking forward to getting to know it over the coming months.

Andrew

TheBoneRanger wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 6:37 am A couple more pics of my latest build.





This horn came to me as a mid-60’s single valve, with a slide that had new tubes. I eventually put an old (allegedly Mt Vernon) dependent valve section on it for some more facility.

The brief for this build was to get the valve tubing on the outside of the horn, for my own ergonomic reasons, and to make a great sounding horn much easier to play. Many horns with valve tubing on the inside I simply can’t play, and in its previous iteration, the horn was tricky to play, but with a compelling sound.

We went for a classic design, and Meinlschmidt Open Flow valves.

I’ve given it a good shake down over the last few days. It currently has a press-fit (keeping it old school) Brass Ark MV50 yellow brass pipe installed but a gold/seamed version of the same pipe is a little more dense and authoritative, and a Kanstul 169 pipe really makes for an immediate response and slims down the sound somewhat.

I really love the classic, old school lines. My tech did a terrific job making it clean and simple. And it blows really predictably now, with clean articulations and lots of colour. The slide even resonates in my hands now like most modern Shires horns do.

Feels like we nailed the brief with this build. I’m looking forward to getting to know it over the coming months.

Andrew

Nice looking horn.

I recently bought a beautiful 50T3 which I’m loving, I’m playing it with an Edwards B-DBN slide and it sounds monstrous. I’m having too much fun playing it.

But - far out, I hate the weird metal paddle for the Gb valve. It seems super short and in a weirdly low position compared with other manufacturers. My old Edwards was a lot more comfortable. Does anyone have any experience with having that trigger assembly modified, moved or replaced to make it more ergonomic?

In 1976, I was in high school and my trombone teacher was David Waters of the Houston Symphony. He told me about a jazzer who was selling his Bach 50b with a Larry Minick 2nd independent trigger for $700. More importantly, a huge stack of bass trombone sheet music came with it. I bought it. I was one of the few in high school and college that had a double independent trigger horn. It sounded great and I liked the Minick trigger too. Truthfully, I didn't use the 2nd trigger much because the trombone literature available at the time didn't really require it.
I eventually walked away from trombone life for a while and sold it. It was a great horn.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2023 1:51 pm The current collection...
50K3LG

I got a Bach 50K as my first bass in the 1990s, which a friend now owns and has since converted to two Thayer valves. I miss it - it sounded beautiful, and the K valve wasn't too bad either; better than the standard rotor at least.

How do you find the K3 valves, compared to Thayers, Hagmanns, or other rotaries?

jonathanharker wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 4:31 am ….
How do you find the K3 valves, compared to Thayers, Hagmanns, or other rotaries?

You usually have to look under a rock or in a dark alley with cast off instruments from other junkies.

/places finger to earpiece

Oh, I understand now you meant playing characteristics. I’d love to have a set for my bass. On the 42.. it’s fine. A little sluggish, but very even and a good sound throughout the range.

Cheers,
Andy

jonathanharker wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 4:31 am

I got a Bach 50K as my first bass in the 1990s, which a friend now owns and has since converted to two Thayer valves. I miss it - it sounded beautiful, and the K valve wasn't too bad either; better than the standard rotor at least.

How do you find the K3 valves, compared to Thayers, Hagmanns, or other rotaries?

I also have one on my 42- I need to post that project, actually. On the 42 it's really just great... it's a little slower, a little heavier than most other valves, but it plays very well and most importantly- sounds great.

On the basses (I actually have owned two of these 50K3s recently, I'm selling the one in the picture above as we speak), they are a little more temperamental. They are better than stock Bach rotors (which is why they were designed and sold, after all), but compared to most other things they fall short in a category or three. The one big claim to fame that they have over pretty much every valve I can think of is that they sound preternaturally even. The blow is NOT even, but the sound that comes out is very hard to distinguish from the open horn- on the GL bell in the picture, you basically cannot tell the difference between an F# on the slide in 5th position and on the Gb valve in 1st position. Again... they don't play the same, like you might expect out of a good axial, but even axials impart more of themselves on the sound than K valves do. Is that worth the weight and speed of the valves? For me, no, not really, but they do end up being some really amazing sounding horns.

A single 50K, set up well, would be a really amazing sounding bass, though probably a bit useless

My first Bach was their first independent open wrap 50B3. I bought it sight unseen from Brasswinds when I was in college. My buddy had just bought one of the new Benge 290s and we swapped horns for a semester. I recall the horns being surprisingly similar. I don't remember too much about the horn other than it sounded like a Bach and at the time I thought it played really open because of the new open wrap. I had just started doubling on bass, so didn't really understand that the wrap didn't affect the feel all that much (no thanks to brass makers' marketing efforts at the time).

Anyway, my current Bach is a late 80s corp era 50B that I picked up from forum member Joe Stanko. It was and is the best playing Bach I've ever experienced. My first bass was my school's Elkhart 72H and that is the imprint for for my sense of how a horn should feel. I had an Elkhart 72H when I picked up the 50B from Joe, but ended up moving the 72H because the Bach played better.

The horn is unique in that the bell started out as an "L" bell, 10.5 inches. Joe had it cut to 9.5, the theory being the 10.5 bells were made from the same blanks as the 9.5, so it would be a thinner bell overall. He also had a non-standard but factory "O" slide. I'm not sure what is different about the "O" slide, I'm guessing the leadpipe. It's a very open playing slide.

Joe also sold me an unattached Bach valve of the same era already configured as a D valve. Benn Hansson did the work attaching the valve. In the process he sent the valves to Osmun music for their opening process. The bell is also detachable. The result is a fantastic playing and sounding horn that is all Bach. Surprisingly, the thinner bell doesn't yield a bright sounding Bach. It's warm and just sounds like a great sounding Bach horn. The bell, however, does start to sizzle fairly quickly in the valve register, which for me is a plus (I likes the sizzle). It's even in all registers and the O slide is also easy in the high register.

I've played two different Doug Yeo YBL 622s, and now own one, and side by side, if the grips didn't feel slightly different I couldn't tell my Bach from the 622. The feel/blow and sound is nearly identical with a slight edge to the Bach in articulations in the middle of the staff (that O slide again).

I picked up the 622 because I was feeling the need for a backup. I'm now talking with Graham Middleton about having an independent valve section built for the Bach so I'll have those needs covered as well.

Stumbled here thanks to a google search… My Bach is in getting a service, it’s been great to read and hear all your stories you are making me miss it very much.

I’m feeling sad and sorry that it’s going to cost me a bank. My slide is toast, bell has been banged up to many times, the close wrapped rotors I’ve always found annoying unless I was super fit, (it’s a 50b3, maybe late 70’s early 80’s) but it’s the horn I learnt on and therefore, the most important horn in my life.

Im worried there will be some hard decisions about it soon, but hearing about all your Frankenstein-bachs, I’m comforted knowing there may be some life let in it yet

Cheers,
Bowie

Bowie wrote: ↑Wed Jan 24, 2024 3:45 am Stumbled here thanks to a google search… My Bach is in getting a service, it’s been great to read and hear all your stories you are making me miss it very much.

I’m feeling sad and sorry that it’s going to cost me a bank. My slide is toast, bell has been banged up to many times, the close wrapped rotors I’ve always found annoying unless I was super fit, (it’s a 50b3, maybe late 70’s early 80’s) but it’s the horn I learnt on and therefore, the most important horn in my life.

Im worried there will be some hard decisions about it soon, but hearing about all your Frankenstein-bachs, I’m comforted knowing there may be some life let in it yet

Cheers,
Bowie

It could still be okay, there are lots of slides out there, and lots of parts…

Also, I’ve had a tech work an excellent repair on an 88H bell which was crumpled with significant damage just in front of the brace. He was able to make it straight and suggested a mild scratch brush finish to avoid taking much material off of the bell given the possible changes when straightening the bell. It came back and played wonderfully and looked pretty good as well. Here were the pictures of the results.

Don’t worry to much yet, we have some truly gifted techs out there!

....Just head back from the mechanic. Went in as the D trigger fell off the cross brace, time for a service.

Doesn't apear to be a lost cause

They will get the D trigger back on, give it a service and start a list of what needs to do to make it new. They are actually brave enough to offer they don't do a lot of that work, but here's the number of the chap who will. Appreciate that.

Bragging repair pictures in 2 weeks once its back. ..

Until then I best add a Bach Story..

I picked up a 50b3 in a community band. I was playing a single trigger Yamaha something or other with one of those Yeo bucket mouthpiece things. I thought I was cool sh1t, my sound was bright, very bright, and naive. The band I was now in valued deep burgundy orchestral tones and this kid with a yamaha would not do. The Bach was owned by the band, they bought it for a world tour back in the ~70's, the case was mostly falling apart, it had a tennis strap for a handle, and they were like here!

It felt 'effin enormous both physically and on the mouthpiece, I could barely make a sound out of the thing, Incidentally it wasn't until a summer camp a few years later spent playing BBb Tuba for a fortnight, that the Bach only then started to make sense.

After that I could do anything with instrument and I've had a great time being annoyed at it, and thanking it for forcing technique I'd otherwise take for granted.

Ah can't wait to get it back now

I don’t have it yet (held up by customs), but currently waiting to take delivery of this beauty.

Here she is! Horn was purchased from Japan and the conversion was done by a shop there as well.

Hmmm..ferrules aren’t original..knurled slide lock..not original. At some point, detailed photos of my Mt. Vernon 50B and the first 50B2 for comparison. Of course, Drew, if it’s a hit then that’s what is important. And obviously, Vincent and Peppy never used axials or anything inline.

Joe Stanko

JoeStanko wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2024 8:13 pm Hmmm..ferrules aren’t original..knurled slide lock..not original. At some point, detailed photos of my Mt. Vernon 50B and the first 50B2 for comparison. Of course, Drew, if it’s a hit then that’s what is important. And obviously, Vincent and Peppy never used axials or anything inline.

Joe Stanko

Hey Joe! Yes, from the translation of the ad and what they told me, the Thayers are from a Shires. Apparently the main tuning slide and outer slide tubes are original, however the inners and leadpipe are Shires. Slide crook they believe is from a Conn.

This was also their reply via email:

“Aloha,
 
The history of your instrument（Shires/NY Bach W-AX）is that a customer of our store originally had a NY Bach and S.E. Shires and asked a well-known workshop to modify and assemble it.
We were told that the customer liked Charles Vernon and wanted to change bell of Bach like him, so that's why he made those modifications.
However, we have an unusual customer who is mainly a double bass trombone player (although he also plays bass trombone, of course).
He likes the instrument very much, but he is used to large bells, so he regretfully had to let it go.
 
I hope this is helpful.
 
Best Regards,
JoyBrass”

How hard is it to find a dual bore Bach 50 slide (.562-.578)? Need a Bach because of the longer length.

They do not exist. There are rare Shires in L length, which I believe are still a tiny bit shorter than Bach length.

My 50Bx. It started out as two horns: a 50BG and a 50B2. It’s now one horn with two bells and two slides.

I needed a bass for a gig, so I bought an old 50BG from a repair tech—it was his project horn. The G bell is early Elkhart. He also made a custom lightweight slide for it: yellow tubes, nickel crook, and no oversleeves. That combination, along with a silver leadpipe (I think it’s an Instrument Innovations (GR) plays really well for commercial and jazz stuff. Very quick response, dark at softer volumes, and bright at louder volumes.

The second horn I bought was a Corporation 50B2. The bell was smashed during transit, but a couple of techs have worked on it to straighten it out. It’s very light, but it plays very well—good core, very even response, very stable, good dynamic flexibility.

I’ve had a couple of techs work on it over the years: John Sandhagen, Benn Hanssen, and Graham Middleton. Sandhagen did the initial work to take the tubing from two different horns to create one valve unit, and make the valve section convertible. John also did the installation of Kanstul CR valves. A few years ago, I asked Graham to replace those with Instrument Innovations rotaries, and replace the levers. Benn has done stuff here and there—I honestly don’t remember what, although I’m pretty sure he does. They’ve each added their own bit of magic, as well.

I also have an assortment of leadpipes, some stock, some from Instrument Innovations. There might be one or two of unknown provenance. I usually play the stock 50 leadpipe in my standard weight slide, and occasionally a stock 50 with about 1/4” removed from the end.

I prefer the yellow bell, but lately I’ve been using the gold bell—most people in my neck of the woods use gold brass or red brass bells. It just seems to blend a wee bit better.

MahlerMusic wrote: ↑Tue Apr 02, 2024 8:12 am How hard is it to find a dual bore Bach 50 slide (.562-.578)? Need a Bach because of the longer length.

Randy Campora had one years ago. I think it was custom from the factory.

What are people’s thoughts on LT nickel slides?

I had one on my 50T3 20 years ago which didn’t work for me at all. A standard yellow slide changed the horn entirely, so I sold the nickel, and haven’t touched one since. The nickel felt like it had no core; the yellow brought it to life.

I know Randall Hawes uses one on some of his solo recordings, so they’re obviously not as terrible as they felt to me back in the day.

My current 50 sounds terrific for most orchestral styles, I’m just curious if I can lighten it up a little at times.

Andrew

Sometimes they are brittle, no life to the sound. Sometimes they are very very good.

TheBoneRanger wrote: ↑Sat Apr 06, 2024 5:40 pm What are people’s thoughts on LT nickel slides?

I had one on my 50T3 20 years ago which didn’t work for me at all. A standard yellow slide changed the horn entirely, so I sold the nickel, and haven’t touched one since. The nickel felt like it had no core; the yellow brought it to life.

I know Randall Hawes uses one on some of his solo recordings, so they’re obviously not as terrible as they felt to me back in the day.

My current 50 sounds terrific for most orchestral styles, I’m just curious if I can lighten it up a little at times.

Andrew

I have them on my 42BO and I love them. They feel quick and responsive (to me).

My Bach 50, and I love it!

74 Corp 50 Bell
77 Corp 50 slide
Instrument Innovations guts
Corey Divine (Ark) build. Not many finer in our world than Corey, IMO.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sat Apr 06, 2024 6:55 pm Sometimes they are brittle, no life to the sound. Sometimes they are very very good.

Brittle is the perfect descriptor of the one I had.

You say ‘very very good’ but in what way?

Dense, colorful, more high overtones, quick response

The semi-tradition of pairing yellow bell/standard slide // G bell/LT slide didn't come from nowhere... especially when the gold bells might be heavier

JoeStanko wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2024 8:13 pm Hmmm..ferrules aren’t original..knurled slide lock..not original.

Joe Stanko

Slide looks like a Shires slide.

Matt Varho

I have what I term a "magic" Corp Bach 50 bell that has been on... I think 5 or 6 different valve sections at this point. I decided to bite the bullet and have Matthew do his magic to it. Fixed (no swapping out bells!), unlacquered, F/Gb, reverse tuning slide. Of course I can't play it for reals until later this week...

I have a killer bass now, but that is one of a small handful of combinations I could see upending its current reign

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sun Apr 28, 2024 1:35 pm I have what I term a "magic" Corp Bach 50 bell that has been on... I think 5 or 6 different valve sections at this point. I decided to bite the bullet and have Matthew do his magic to it. Fixed (no swapping out bells!), unlacquered, F/Gb, reverse tuning slide. Of course I can't play it for reals until later this week...

Very nice! Did the same to a very good Bach 36 bell. Turned out great!

I've been doing a lot of experimenting with various Bach 50 configurations over the last year, and here is where I'm landing for the time being.

The single has a Rotax valve mounted by a friend at Shires several years back with Shires tubing. The slide, tuning slide, and bell are from a 50B dated to 1976. I bought it on a lark with the unmodified original valve section through eBay, and when it arrived the complete instrument was terrible; 30 cents flat and very stuffy. But with a different slide the bell sounded and responded great, and I was able to isolate the problem to the leadpipe. My tech was able to remove it intact, only to discover that it was installed at the factory with WAY too much solder...and a big outside-in dent! He cleaned it up and fixed the dent, reinstalled it, and now the slide plays great.

The double has Greenhoe valves from the Schilke factory, a Bach tuning slide from a conversion, another corporation-era yellow bell (lighter than the one on the single, maybe older?), and 50 inners and outers with mismatched serial numbers and an MK50 pipe soldered in.

I also have a gold brass bell I can swap in on the Greenhoes and a nickel LW slide with a BrassArk MV50 pipe in it, both from the late 80s.

I've been lucky enough to come into ownership of a great 1977 (25XXX) 50B2. It has such dense sound that I've been unable to find on any modern instrument. I'm currently trying to offload my other bass to raise the money to have Olsen rotors put on the Bach and have it converted to an independent setup. The horn is all original and currently in slightly rough shape. Slide moves slow and the rotors will occasionally stick even though they're oiled well. Despite the condition the blow on the horn is incredible. Hopefully, in a month or two I'll be able to post the horn to this thread in its updated configuration!

GabrielRice wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2024 3:24 pm The double has Greenhoe valves from the Schilke factory, a Bach tuning slide from a conversion, another corporation-era yellow bell (lighter than the one on the single, maybe older?), and 50 inners and outers with mismatched serial numbers and an MK50 pipe soldered in.
I also have a gold brass bell I can swap in on the Greenhoes and a nickel LW slide with a BrassArk MV50 pipe in it, both from the late 80s.

That double is my dream...