TromboneChat

Hi everyone,

I'm curious if anybody has had experience with this. The contractor for an upcoming gig wants me to accept a lower per-service rate, because I am a "student." Has anybody had an experience where they were paid less because they were a student? I'll point out that I am a graduate student, and I have a bachelor's degree. I've taken many gigs in the past, and have been paid the same as everyone else (less than the principle players, if applicable).

Are "student" rates for pick-up gigs fairly common?

I've had that happen a few times. If someone does that you can usually imply a few things about them as a contractor and the gig.

It's not a normal thing at least around here in LA.

Are you familiar with the term "horse hockey"?

The music and group promise to be great- but yeah, the pay situation is unfortunate...

Tell them that you quit school so you are not a student anymore.

You shouldn't let anyoneknow that you're not a pro in the first place. Or that you're a student.

I run a pep band at a college, which is separate to the music school and I've definitely received emails asking specifically for students because they didn't have a budget for all pros. Personally I think your rate is your rate, and if you're willing to be flexible based on someone's budget then that's your decision to make.

I've definitely accepted gigs below my normal rate because I was able to get 5-8 guys working too. I run a brass band that can be as small as a 5-piece or as large as a 9-piece. I always run it by the band first though to make sure everyone is comfortable.

I think the term "student rate" is for someone who is looking to save money when they don't really care about the product. IMHO, I think students (undergrads) should charge less because there are many situations that happen on a bandstand that might be difficult to manage. It's not necessarily just about the music.

It's one thing to offer less to a group of students than you'd offer to a group of established professionals for a gig as a group, or for students to be more flexible with their minimum rate and accept work that is paid less; that's just normal and to be fair, students need cheap gigs that better qualified players would turn down as much as the producers of those gigs need cheaper labour. But for pick up work playing on the same gig, I think it is totally unacceptable. As a contractor and organizer, I've never accepted and will never accept to pay some musicians less than others outside of standard pay differentials between principals and section players (which has been suggested to me more than once by co-producing organisms as well as by musicians trying to negotiate a higher pay for themselves). I find that to be very unethical : if the player is not good enough to deserve the normal rate then they are not good enough to be in the gig at all and it's disrespectful to the actual pros in the group, and if they're qualified enough to be on the gig, then they are qualified to earn the full rate. I don't see how there can be anything in-between and I find it extremely shady to do otherwise.

And it goes both way as far as I'm concerned, I hate when I hear about colleagues negotiating themselves a higher pay than the rest of the group in pick up ensemble or orchestral settings, I find that selfish, short-sighted and counterproductive as it does nothing to improve overall conditions for everyone.

Obviously not all contractors or musicians care about ethics and equity.

I know of one orchestra that has a longstanding practice, sanctioned somewhat grudgingly by the local of the musicians union, of hiring some students at a lower per-service rate than the union musicians on the gig. Mostly when students are hired it is to sub on rehearsals - more on that below - but that's not exclusively the case.

It is a unique orchestra in that the bulk of the string sections are made up of high-level amateurs who are not paid to play at all, and the union players on the gig are offered more services - and a more liberal subbing policy for rehearsals - than the typical orchestra concert. This orchestra also does very ambitious programming, with a lot of Mahler symphonies and the like. For the most part, people are very happy with this work, though the students who play and then are not hired again after they've joined the union do sometimes feel they've been taken advantage of.

Generally speaking, I think what you're being asked to accept is not reasonable unless there's some other circumstance that normalizes it a bit.

I'm glad for the input, everyone.

My principle trombone teacher is the one who recommended me for the gig, so I see why I might be considered a "student." As someone who is pursuing a primary career other than music, the money doesn't matter to me so much.

However, if anyone is getting paid, I think I should be paid the same. If I am to be a "bargain," I should be allowed to either (a) miss notes (which I have no intention of doing) or (b) conduct myself unprofessionally, which I also have no intention of doing.

Since I have already committed to this performance, I will play it, and enjoy it... but yeah, the idea of being paid less because of my age is hard to ignore.

I'm familiar with it...

When I was a student, I always turned down work like that because it A) usually would've kept me from taking other work that paid better and B) it set a bad example, undercutting other musicians. I made exceptions for things I felt were either necessary experiences that would be hard to come by or things that directly benefitted the academic institution or some other kind of philanthropic thing I believed in (charity balls, scholarship drives, etc.)

Now-a-days, I have people contact me looking for students, sometimes because they think they can pay my students lower... I tell them my students get the same rates I do. My students are often my subs, and I'm not recommending them unless I know they can do the gig. I will not contribute to anything that involves paying musicians less because of their inexperience and I won't be involved with undercutting. If they can do the gig, they deserve the same base pay as anyone else on the job. Rhythm section, piano usually pays more for different reasons (cartage, extra prep time, etc.) - but the difference in pay should be for practical reasons, never exploitive.

In educational situations things can be different, but keep in mind one simple question: "who is helping who"? If someone is making money as a result of your gig and there is no real benefit to you other than the experience, you deserve to be paid.

From previous experiences over the years, of my own and seeing others treated that way, my advice is: As soon as being paid less is mentioned, just say no. Unless you know that you won't do a good job and deserve less. But if that's the case you should have said no already.

It's good to learn to say no when appropriate.

I didn’t mind donating my services to a local youth symphony fundraiser until I found out that some people were getting paid.

What Zac and Doug said!

paulyg wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:05 pm My principle trombone teacher is the one who recommended me for the gig, so I see why I might be considered a "student."

Is your teacher aware that the contractor is offering you less because you're a "student"? If (s)he has and is good with it, then roll with it (and maybe think about finding another principal* teacher ); if not, it might make for an "interesting" conversation between your teacher and the contractor.

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* principal: first in order of importance, consequence, or influence; a person who has controlling authority or is in a leading position; a matter or thing of primary importance

principle: a fundamental truth or proposition that serves as the foundation for a system of belief or behaviour or for a chain of reasoning; a rule or belief governing one's behavior; fundamental source or basis of something; a general scientific theorem or law that has numerous special applications across a wide field

It is a fairly common practice around here in community orchestras with low operating budgets. Some will have a mix of union players and "student" or "community" players. The positions are usually set aside as being a "student chair". You can try to negotiate a higher scale for yourself, but they may decide to just get someone else who is willing to do it for the lower scale. If you were hired under a union CBA and then paid less than what is in the agreement, then you would have some recourse. Otherwise, probably not. Bottom line: always ask how much it pays before accepting, and if you don't want to do it for that price then say no. I have no qualms about politely telling a contractor that I would love to do the job, but that it doesn't pay enough.

Bach5G wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:45 pm I didn’t mind donating my services to a local youth symphony fundraiser until I found out that some people were getting paid.

Heh. That's the worst one.

During my undergrad we had a pep band which had this happen.

Half the band was getting paid and half wasn't, and the half that wasn't was under the impression that no one in the band was getting paid.

After we found out half of us quit and the band fell apart over night. We still had half a season left but screw that! We didn't even get food every gig!

This is an interesting and ongoing issue with artists of all kinds. There's no simple answer.

When I was getting my music degree, I was semi-retired and in my 50s. I'd already established myself as a wedding/event band leader, and when I got a gig I hired the best musicians I could--most of them were music majors in my school. I also worked with a few pro's, one of whom was a world-class saxophonist with a degree from the Berklee school of music in Boston and a masters in jazz from Rutgers. He was happy to get the gig, and received the same pay as my friends/fellow students, all of whom played at a high level.

I agree that if a musician is good enough to play, they should be paid equally. (The only exception to this rule was myself--I got the gig, called the tunes, dealt with the people who hired us, provided the PA system, paid for the advertising, and put up with all the BS that a band leader has to put up with. And I was NOT the best player, by far, in the combo!)