I bought an alto.

ttf_Ellrod · Post by **ttf_Ellrod** » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:49 pm

Not my first.

I've had several in the past. You know, the cheap Asian horn that is ok to learn on. The less inexpensive Asian horn manufactured under the supervision of a well-recognized custom maker. Unplayable junk.

After all of that, I just sort of assumed that there was something inherent in the design of an alto that meant you couldn't reasonably expect a workable slide. As for sound - you're joking, right? The bad sound hid the worse intonation. An exercise in frustration.

But we recently did Mozart's Cm and I had a chance to try a friend's Yamaha 671. Now that's better. Once we finished the Mozart, I borrowed the Yammie for a bit. Downloaded Harrison's alto method. On doing a bit of research, I see that the Yamaha is recognized as being easy for a tenor player to learn but maybe not the last word in altos. I can live with that. I can cross the Glassl bridge if I come to it.

A used 671 turned up in Phil Parker's in London. Assuming no surprises, it was reasonably priced (thanks to Brexit the pound is down). After a pleasant exchange of emails (nice guys), I called them this morning and made the necessary arrangements. Shipping, as estimated, was reasonable, again assuming no surprises.

So, it should turn up on my doorstep in a week or so. Looking forward to this.

ttf_crazytrombonist505 · Sat Apr 22, 2017 4:21 am

Congrats!!! Hope you enjoy your new purchase!

ttf_sterb225 · Post by **ttf_sterb225** » Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:16 am

Ditto. I spent a year with a miserable Chinese born a few years ago and gave up. Found a Courtois for a song ... it arrives Thursday.

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:51 am

Try playing with the tuning slide pushed all the way in.

ttf_Ellrod · Post by **ttf_Ellrod** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:52 am

So, it left London yesterday am, flew to Memphis and Vancouver overnight, cleared international arrival and is at the local sort facility as I sit down to work at 7:30 am.

At this rate, it may be delivered before my wife leaves for work. BAD.

ttf_sterb225 · Post by **ttf_sterb225** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:54 am

I ALWAYS take delivery of horns at my office.

ttf_trombonemetal · Post by **ttf_trombonemetal** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:11 pm

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Apr 22, 2017, 07:51AMTry playing with the tuning slide pushed all the way in.

What's your thinking here? I ask because both my previous alto (Courtois) and my current alto (shires) barely play up to pitch with the slide all the way in. That's with any mouthpiece too.

ttf_Ellrod · Post by **ttf_Ellrod** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:13 pm

Arrived at noon. Amazing.

Exactly as advertised. Packed extremely well. Nothing amiss at all. Parker Ltd a delight to deal with.

Minor kvetch however. The horn went from the UK to Memphis and then on to Vancouver. It looks like the US charged an import duty upon it entering the US, although it was then sent on to Canada.

ttf_robinsjanis · Post by **ttf_robinsjanis** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:56 am

The manufacturer does not matter for an instrument, which you use once or twice a year. Main thing is sound, because the intonation on those 671 yamahas is ****. I have tried 3 of them, only one has decent intonation.

ttf_vegasbound · Post by **ttf_vegasbound** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:02 am

Quote from: robinsjanis on Apr 27, 2017, 06:56AMThe manufacturer does not matter for an instrument, which you use once or twice a year. Main thing is sound, because the intonation on those 671 yamahas is ****. I have tried 3 of them, only one has decent intonation.

Sorry have to disagree found the 671 to be a very good alto!

believe Denis Wick was involved in the original production with Yamaha

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:07 am

I'll say that the Yamaha altos I've played were consistently in tune. (Perhaps with the exception of one I played a few years ago that had some kind of aftermarket rotor added to it that was for sale at Dillon).

They are small though. 471 bore I believe? If you overblow it, bad things can definitely happen! Note that I tried the Yamahas with my Elliott C"alto" shank when I was trying out altos a few years ago. I did notice that a 2 or 3 shank did make the intonation harder to control.

ttf_robinsjanis · Post by **ttf_robinsjanis** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:32 am

Using original mouthpiece, the low e flat needs to be lowered, middle e flat, needs to be higher than the low e flat, I could continue forever. Played Shumann 3, three times this week, it was horrible. Of course it's a different instrument, and practice is needed to sound great, but I couldn't tune the alto to orchestra, so I played with tuning slide in.

ttf_trombonemetal · Post by **ttf_trombonemetal** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:42 am

The mouthpiece that ships with the Yamaha altos, the 51A, is a pretty great alto mouthpiece. Worth a try. It's not my go to, but it is one of the better ones that I've tried.

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Fri Apr 28, 2017 5:49 am

Quote from: trombonemetal on Apr 25, 2017, 12:11PMWhat's your thinking here? I ask because both my previous alto (Courtois) and my current alto (shires) barely play up to pitch with the slide all the way in. That's with any mouthpiece too.

Exactly. The more of every kind of trombone I play, the more I realize each was designed to be played with the tuning slide in all or almost all the way. I think my King 3B is pulled the most -- about 1cm.

The funny thing is that doing this will drastically change where the tuning note is from horn to horn, but at the same time, all other notes fall exactly where you'd expect them to fall relative to the bell (I know .... I know ... I'm a horrible person). So, putting the bell in the right spot, you also end up with the slide all the way in. On a 3B, you're now tuned to something between Bb and B, giving you plenty of wiggle room for slide vibrato and Ab in 1st. Ab is at the bell. On my T396A, Bb is not far out from the bumpers.

The 36H was frustrating to me. I could not ever play an F even close to the bell. Every position seemed really short to me, and the Bb attachment was flat in a closed 1st. Cut the slide 3/8" to put Db at the bell. Now the alto is almost in E .... except it really is still in Eb. All positions including 7th are where I'd expect, Eb is away from the bumpers a good ways, and the Bb attachment now plays properly from Bb down (didn't cut the Bb, I actually have to pull it now). Funny thing is it looks like a 36H from the early 90s. I have a hunch that people complained that their 36Hs were in E and they lengthened the tuning slide.

All of this is to say, the manufacturer probably designed whatever trombone to be played nearly closed, and probably should have shortened the slide even further so you actually could use it to tune to groups at 442.

PS, Jay Freidman suggests the same thing and says alto made a lot more sense after he gave up on tuning it to a closed 1st Eb.

ttf_trombonemetal · Post by **ttf_trombonemetal** » Fri Apr 28, 2017 7:23 am

Thanks Harrison. I've been getting closer and closer to getting my alto chopped, and I'm glad I'm not the only person in that situation.

Just played Albrectsberger on a recital and didn't open the tuning at all throughout the rehearsals or recital. And I was still struggling to get the pitch high enough.

I'm a large person with a huge oral cavity, which I've heard will also bring pitch down. I think I'm going to stop fighting it and finally get the horn cut down.

BTW I've picked up a Brass Ark 11C and found it to be an incredible alto mouthpiece

ttf_ChadA · Post by **ttf_ChadA** » Fri Apr 28, 2017 7:46 am

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Apr 28, 2017, 05:49AMThe more of every kind of trombone I play, the more I realize each was designed to be played with the tuning slide in all or almost all the way.

I'm not sure this is true. On all my horns, I'm out a decent distance (an inch or so) and they work just fine.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Fri Apr 28, 2017 8:59 am

This is one of the reason why Shires and Rath only do TIS altos. Its hard to make the horn in tune when you're altering such a huge proportion of the tapered part of the instrument's length.

I do the same thing Harrison does. I've relented and decided to pull mine just a touch. I did this because I have a bass trombone tuning slide that was cut down, but the bell and valve were not, so they cannot be fully pushed in. As such, it rests about 1cm out. To keep things consistent, my other horns (which are all Shires at this point) are also pulled out roughly the same distance.

That said, I also play an Elliott 104N rim. Harrison plays a rim slightly larger from the looks (ca. 1.060"). So that may help with that decision. I find that the larger rim helps me to be more in tune in general though so perhaps not.

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:20 am

Quote from: ChadA on Apr 28, 2017, 07:46AMI'm not sure this is true. On all my horns, I'm out a decent distance (an inch or so) and they work just fine.

Of course, you can tune however you want it. Are you tuning with Bb in closed 1st?

There should be a range of spots the tuning slide can be and the instrument is "in tune". As soon as Bb is unplayable even in a closed 1st position, or B natural is unplayable on the slide (ie, the slide comes off), you're out of this range. I guess you could even ignore the B natural end if you never play it in 7th and only use the valve, which you wouldn't want to admit to a lot of people on this forum. For most of my trombones this tuning slide range is between 1 and 2 inches, and a lot of that range is past where I can push the tuning slide in. In any case, the only arbitrary tuning that really makes sense is to tune to the bell, IF the trombone was designed to have an approximate 3rd position at the bell. For me, on nearly every instrument except my 36H, this happened with the tuning slide nearly closed and gives a lot of wiggle room in 1st. I couldn't get there on the 36H even pushed in all the way.

If a person naturally plays sharp, they might have to pull the tuning slide to put Ab at the bell, but once that is done, their handslide will work the same as it does for me.

Yes, it is a cardinal sin to use the bell as a guidepost. However, it is infinitely more questionable to tune a trombone to a closed 1st pitch, be it Bb or in the case of the alto, Eb. Usually when you see players with their tuning slides out inches, it's because they did that, and more often than not, they don't play anything in tune.

So, there is a range of spots to put the tuning slide and be able to play everything in tune, but to me, it should be tuned in the middle of this range or sharper, giving wiggle room on both ends of the hand slide but favoring positions closer to 1st. How often do you need to slide vibrato or pull out in 7th? I've found that this usually is achieved by tuning to the bell -- I almost always have room on both ends of the hand slide. However, and maybe I just play flat, it seems that the middle of this range puts the tuning slide all the way closed. I could do to have them all cut to open up the possibility of pushing further in and still be in the acceptable range of tuning slide spots to hit every note. In reality all this would do is allow me to push in for groups that are sharper than 440.

All this to say, it doesn't matter where you tune your tuning slide as long as you can play all the notes. I'd rather be smack in the middle of that range of possibilities. And on the alto it seems that it is better to play as far out on the handslide as you can and still get an E. And I would even understand someone (who could really play and sounded great) tuning so sharp that they removed their B off the end of the slide, or the E off the end of the alto if they had a Bb attachment. I wouldn't do it, but I can see it -- you wouldn't ever have to touch the tuning slide or worry about TIS. It would just be tuning WITH slide, TWS.

I can see it now ... an Edwards alto with a conical bell tuned nearly to E, normal slide, and long but tuneable Bb attachment. No tuning crook or TIS. The purists would die. I doubt I'd buy it hahaha.

ttf_Ellrod · Post by **ttf_Ellrod** » Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:38 am

Anyone got a Yam 51A they'd like to sell?

ttf_ChadA · Post by **ttf_ChadA** » Fri Apr 28, 2017 10:00 am

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Apr 28, 2017, 09:20AMOf course, you can tune however you want it. Are you tuning with Bb in closed 1st?

Nope. I tune D all the way in because it would otherwise be flat in a Bb harmonic series. So Bb goes wherever it lies as a result of that. Ab wherever it lies as a result of that. The Ab on my tenor (with narrow slide) is very different from the Ab on my wide-slide bass in relation to the bell. Play'em where they sound good.

I don't disagree with your usage and how you tune, just with the statement that things are"designed to be played with the tuning slide in all or almost all the way." If that's true, people could be screwed when it gets cold. Or when they're playing with trumpets who (gasp!) play sharp making you flat by comparison.

A good design should be able to function so that it fits most people in most situations. Some players in some situations need to go one direction of other on the tuning slide, sometimes a lot.

I think it's safer to say that the way you play favors shorter lengths and that mileage varies. For me, it's different. Vive la difference!

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Fri Apr 28, 2017 10:09 am

Totally agree, Chad.

I like keeping the possibility of Ab in 1st!

Interestingly, on tenor my D is usually sharper than Bb. Not the case on my Edwards, but definitely on my Conn and King. Tuning to a closed D would definitely not work for me.

On alto, the G also needs to be pulled out, but the upper partials beyond that need to be pulled in, for me.

ttf_schlitzbeer · Post by **ttf_schlitzbeer** » Fri Apr 28, 2017 12:41 pm

Quote from: Ellrod on Apr 28, 2017, 09:38AMAnyone got a Yam 51A they'd like to sell?

51D, 51D, 51D. Play everything on a 51D.... Just kidding hoser.

ttf_Ellrod · Post by **ttf_Ellrod** » Fri Apr 28, 2017 12:48 pm

"Hoser" - why the rudeness?

If you read through the thread, you'll see someone recommended the Yam 51A that came with the horn. My horn was used and did not come with a mpc.

Frankly, I think your comment is out of line.

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Fri Apr 28, 2017 1:08 pm

The 36H also comes with a proprietary 7C that actually fits the leadpipe taper. I bet the supplied 51A also is the ticket for that Yamaha.

That said, a DE piece might also be able to do it, with a B or C cup.

ttf_Ellrod · Post by **ttf_Ellrod** » Fri Apr 28, 2017 3:38 pm

I have been in touch wit Mr. E already.

ttf_elmsandr · Post by **ttf_elmsandr** » Sat Apr 29, 2017 8:04 am

Quote from: Ellrod on Apr 28, 2017, 03:38PMI have been in touch wit Mr. E already.
Back in the day when I had a 671, I used either my DE C cup or a decent Bach 7C on it. I wasn't as evolved as a player then (HS/college), but I did recognize it was a bit tenor-ish. However, man was it easy to play and tune without a huge learning curve.

Cheers,
Andy

ttf_Ellrod · Post by **ttf_Ellrod** » Sat Apr 29, 2017 10:06 am

A few days in and this is going better than expected. Mpcs make a huge difference. I can't get a Schilke 51 (SS) to play in tune. My DE LT C3 works well, as does a Bach 6 1/2AL that I had laying around. I ordered a Yam 48A, the mpc that Yam included with the horn. Apparently the size of a 6 1/2 but shalllower.

I've been playing lines with a tuner, sorting out the positions, playing some scale patterns, that sort of thing. I've got Harrison's method and Fink's Alto Clef books on my stand.

So far, so good.

ttf_FlamingRain · Post by **ttf_FlamingRain** » Sat Apr 29, 2017 2:04 pm

We have a 671 that we share here at our university - and we have experienced something similiar with this alto - it's pretty consistently low on pitch, between the three of us that use it semi-regularly, we play with the tuning slides from only 1mm out to all the way in.

ttf_John McKevitt · Post by **ttf_John McKevitt** » Sun May 21, 2017 5:29 am

Ellrod, You mention Harrison's Alto Method. Can you give us a link for the download?

ttf_Ellrod · Post by **ttf_Ellrod** » Sun May 21, 2017 7:41 am

http://docslide.us/download/link/harrison-reed-complete-alto-trombone-method

ttf_Ellrod · Post by **ttf_Ellrod** » Sun May 21, 2017 7:41 am

http://docslide.us/download/link/harrison-reed-complete-alto-trombone-method