TromboneChat

Hello all, I recently posted a thread about this on Reddit, but I feel as though I could get a more solid answer here. What do you know about bass trombone bomb drops in jazz? About placement in relation to the music, and placement in relation to the beat? Note choice?

Hmm.

Just play your part.

Mike

High school or Jr high?

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:10 pm High school or Jr high?

High school

Pardon my ignorance, but what's a "bass trombone bomb drop"?

This I gotta hear!

BGuttman wrote: ↑Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:40 pm Pardon my ignorance, but what's a "bass trombone bomb drop"?

Just guessing, but I surmise that it must be some sort of high schooler thing.

This is not a subject that would arise during discussions among adult trombonists.

I also can hardly wait for the responses from other high schoolers.

It's pretty simple you find something fun then play it way too loud

Weve all been there, even famous pros (when they were younger) - then we all grew up. Besides I dont have the lung capacity any more, too much weight and too much age. Just be musical it short cuts the inevitable journey and final destination. Theres enough youth left in me though to see it could be fun, but think of all those players that sit in front of your bell!!!

I guess it's kinda like the t-bone section that, in the middle of an orchestra rehearsal, broke into the Darth Vader theme...

Like that.

you drop the bomb where the music says to.

if the music doesn't say to, don't do that.

real simple.

Kingfan wrote: ↑Sun Apr 28, 2019 1:22 pm

Was it the farting sound at :26?

That recording sounds GROSS!

I though it was clever of the trombone section to introduce Star Wars - The Imperial March into this symphony. It fit right in.

Doing that in a rehearsal may make somebody laugh. Doing that in a concert without permission is a good way to get kicked out.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Sun Apr 28, 2019 9:02 pm Doing that in a rehearsal may make somebody laugh. Doing that in a concert without permission is a good way to get kicked out.

Never during a concert. The conductor of the community band I play in made a joke about trombones and kazoos. Once we gather enough kazoos to equip the entire section, we plan on doing the last repeat in "Stars and Stripes Forever" on them in rehearsal. Can't wait!

We never said it was wise....

Regardless of the terminology the OP used, there are legitimate times where playing loud in the low register is perfectly acceptable, although obviously limited to when it is called for. The first instance that popps into my mind with the effect is from the Mark Nightingale album Bone Structure; the final track, Spanish White, has several instances where the bass trombonists (it's a 3 tenor + 2 bass + rhythm setup as best I can tell) are absolutely laying it down.

Matt K wrote: ↑Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:47 am Regardless of the terminology the OP used, there are legitimate times where playing loud in the low register is perfectly acceptable, although obviously limited to when it is called for. The first instance that popps into my mind with the effect is from the Mark Nightingale album Bone Structure; the final track, Spanish White, has several instances where the bass trombonists (it's a 3 tenor + 2 bass + rhythm setup as best I can tell) are absolutely laying it down.

Exactly, because that's the musical intention. You don't want to sound like a toaster on parts that are just absolutely un necessary or not intentional.

Right, but the OP didn't really indicate that they were intending to play unmusically. It would seem to make much more sense to interpret this as, "I heard an awesome recording where the bass trombonist was playing very loud and musically simultaneously, how can I achieve that?" compared to "I want to be unmusical, how can I play as repulsively as possible so that nobody wants to listen to me?"

Right, I wasn't saying that he was. I should have been more specific...

BurckhardtS wrote: ↑Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:10 pm Right, I wasn't saying that he was. I should have been more specific...

Gotcha; just replying to the general sense of the thread which is to call out someone for what we assume is the latter when the former is probably more reasonable!

How much leeway do you have in say Bruckner? Kenton? Gordon Goodwin?

Bach5G wrote: ↑Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:18 pm How much leeway do you have in say Bruckner? Kenton? Gordon Goodwin?

As much leeway as makes musical sense.

We don't play the same size instruments that Bruckner would have used yet musically, I think what 'most' pro orchestras use now sounds pretty good. I heard the Pittsburgh Symphony do Bruckner 8 a few years ago and it sounded fantastic. We use a tuba in lieu of an opheclide for Berlioz pretty much 99.999% of the time. So some degree of sound & volume difference vs. what is originally intended is obviously okay.

Probably 90% of the time I've had "Makin' Whoopee" on a concert the MD has had me hand the 4th part to the lead, who plays it up an octave (at least) and the 1st goes to 2nd etc. I've played arrangements of 'In the Mood' that have the bass bone scored down an octave for some of the gooseggs towards the end and it adds a bit of richness that you don't get in a section with four peashooters playing the octave above it. There are a lot of arrangers where I live now who write bass parts that are fairly different from the original. They make copious use of the lower ranges and pedal notes and it works really well.

I am surprised by how little people actually know about bomb drops. From what I know, it is an official term, as I once real about it in an article on the role of the bass trombone in a big band. I also heard the term come from the all-county jazz band clinician this year, so I at least assume it's a real thing. It's basically where you play a loud, syncopated low note before the rest of the band plays (for a cool effect). Pianists may do it, I think the bassist, drummers can, bari can, and bass trombone. I just don't know when the music best permits for a bomb drop. I'll have to find a local jazzist and talk to them about it, I guess.

trombinstharry wrote: ↑Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:46 pm I am surprised by how little people actually know about bomb drops. From what I know, it is an official term ...

Never heard this "official term" used in my decades as a musician. I guess I'm too "old school" to attempt to recompose the music that's put in front of me.

trombinstharry wrote: ↑Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:46 pmIt's basically where you play a loud, syncopated low note before the rest of the band plays (for a cool effect).

That's not generally something a bass trombone does on his or her own - it's written into the music. Say, the band plays an Eb major chord (probably an accented quarter note) on the downbeat - the bass trombone might have a quarter note Bb on the and of three and an eighth note Bb on the and of four, with an Eb on the downbeat. Another example (still with the Eb chord on the downbeat) would be an eighth note G on 4 and an eighth note F on the and of four. You could also leave the bass trombone exposed on the downbeat. If it's at the end of the chart, the band will come in on the chord (with a fermata) on the and of two.

Here's a good example:
https://www.jwpepper.com/Night-and-Day/ ... em#/submit
It's not exactly a "bomb", but the bass trombone has a nice little bit in bar 8 leading to bar 9 (repeated later in the piece, btw). Notice the way the bass trombone part (in fact, all of the trombone parts) interacts with the solo line in the bari.

trombinstharry wrote: ↑Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:46 pm I am surprised by how little people actually know about bomb drops. From what I know, it is an official term, as I once real about it in an article on the role of the bass trombone in a big band. I also heard the term come from the all-county jazz band clinician this year, so I at least assume it's a real thing.

With credentials like these....

Here's a good example of what I think you're talking about...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9uRnMSmPy0

At about the 2 minute mark, and at the end of the tune. But, this is a written section - done intentionally by Thad Jones. Also, sure, you can "drop bombs" in other, more improvised contexts, but it's unwise to do so unless you have a), a good, musical intention for doing so, and b) the discretion to consult with either your director, your section, the rhythm section, and the baritone sax player, otherwise you'll look foolish, selfish, or both.

Also, volume means nothing until you can play in time, and I mean, with good time.

trombinstharry wrote: ↑Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:46 pm I am surprised by how little people actually know about bomb drops. From what I know, it is an official term, as I once real about it in an article on the role of the bass trombone in a big band. I also heard the term come from the all-county jazz band clinician this year, so I at least assume it's a real thing. It's basically where you play a loud, syncopated low note before the rest of the band plays (for a cool effect). Pianists may do it, I think the bassist, drummers can, bari can, and bass trombone. I just don't know when the music best permits for a bomb drop. I'll have to find a local jazzist and talk to them about it, I guess.

"bomb drop" with that definition has no corresponding translation in my language. It is just an effect where the bass trombone plays solo, on or off the beat and the band or the rest of the trombones has the other part of the effect on or off the beat. I do understand it could be a need for a word for this effect because it is a good effect that is used often. I don't like "bomb drop" very much though, and to translate that to my language would just sound silly.
There is a word I've heard be used more as a joke on heavy low brass notes and that is "tuba krevader" or "krevader I tubasektionen". Could probably have been "bas trombone krevader" too. This is something to avoid and is to play with an explosive attack probably by mistake. It is something a conductor could ask you stop doing. To translate this to English would be "Tuba explosions" or "Tuba grenades" ,"Explosions in the tuba section" or "bass trombone explosions". It absolutely is related to amateur musicians.

/Tom

I would just add a word of caution. I have been a composer/arranger and band leader, professionally, for a half-a-century.

If I want an anticipation in the bass-bone, I'll write it. If I don't want it, I don't write it. As a musical director, I usually (but not always) defer to the arranger.

It's just prudent not to think that an instrumentalist knows more about what the director or arranger wants than themselves. I would ask ahead of time.

Gary wrote: ↑Wed May 01, 2019 1:25 pm I would just add a word of caution. I have been a composer/arranger and band leader, professionally, for a half-a-century.

If I want an anticipation in the bass-bone, I'll write it. If I don't want it, I don't write it. As a musical director, I usually (but not always) defer to the arranger.

It's just prudent not to think that an instrumentalist knows more about what the director or arranger wants than themselves. I would ask ahead of time.

In this case I imagine it is obvious that the effect is wanted, and nuances and articulation suggests the effect would be a "bomb drop". Even though I've never heard the expression and don't like it very much I do instinctly understand what sort of effect the OP is talking about. We should naturally follow the intentions of the arranger/composer. To me "bomb drop" sounds a bit to vulgar to be taken seriously, but that could just be me. I've read a lot of instructions in music I did not understand but did my best to interpret. Sometimes it says "bring out" in my part or "bealt it". I just do the best I can to make those phrases heard. I would not like to se "bomb drop".

/Tom

Agreed that the term "bomb" may not be the most appropriate, but it is indicative of how bass trombonists are often perceived by other musicians. I've heard the term (and used it myself) to describe a note that is too loud and too strongly articulated for the musical context.

The recording Redthunder linked to is a nice example of the technique as applied in a fairly subtle way.

Here's a sample in a slightly less subtle application:

It's at the very beginning of the first track, but I encourage you to listen to the whole album. Not sure who the bass trombonist is; I know Tony Studd played bass trombone some of Kai's other albums.

Yeah, I don't think you can approach this as anything but a male adolescent attention seeking prank. Don't try to legitimize it. Doesn't have anything at all to do with the Mozart Surprise Symphony. It's just one or more PAK trying to get some attention. For whatever reason, this type seems to gravitate to bass trombone.

Psst -- Haydn wrote the Surprise Symphony (#94 - and it doesn't use trombones).

BGuttman wrote: ↑Wed May 01, 2019 2:21 pm Psst -- Haydn wrote the Surprise Symphony (#94 - and it doesn't use trombones).

Yeah, Haydn. Oops. Still. As Gary said, it's a technique composers use or don't. Not an ad hoc improvisational method. Don't encourage the kid to do more of this.

My college band would go on tour during spring break (while everyone else went to the beach) and play a whole bunch of HS gyms at schools where our alumni were band directors. We always ended the concert with a tune called "Night Flight to Madrid" with the local band director conducting. It was well known among both the band members and the poor guest conductor that something not on the printed page would take place during that tune. Sometimes we would break into the fight song, sometimes the Hallelujah Chorus, and sometimes we would play it straight just to freak them out. Good fun.

Sammy Nestico does this in a lot of his arrangements. It’s often a pedal tone, accented sfz, during an ensemble rest at the end of a phrase. I wouldn’t call it a bomb, but Denny Sefried from the old TTF called them “depth charges.”

What’s all this talk about adolescence about? If Sammy Nestico wants a punchy pedal Bb in Begin the Beguine, I’m gonna hammer it to my conductor’s satisfaction. That’s not adolescent; that’s reading and interpreting. Lighten up guys.

To the OP: Place it on the beat, and push like hell to sustain the intensity through the duration of the note.

REMEMBER THE CREED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What is "dropping bombs"? I hope it is not what my wife accuse me doing sometimes?
Or is it example what George Roberts do when he pick up a short low note often in the beginning of a phrase? An octave lower? Like he do here?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_ZdK_byB74
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lGbXJLmDbA

Leif

Savio wrote: ↑Thu May 02, 2019 5:01 pm What is "dropping bombs"? I hope it is not what my wife accuse me doing sometimes?
Or is it example what George Roberts do when he pick up a short low note often in the beginning of a phrase? An octave lower? Like he do here?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_ZdK_byB74
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lGbXJLmDbA

Leif

I don't think it applies to that effect. That's a typical George Robert's thing, something he adds. I have never seen that octave-thing in writing.

I think it is more of a single solo note. Think of the ending of a big band chart where the whole band nails a short accentuated fortissimo quarternote on the first beat and the base and basstrombone hits a low pedal fortissimo Bb on the second beat with the bass drum. I think that is an example of the "bomb drop". I would not use that as an expression. To me that is just a sforzando fortissimo pedal Bb, but I think it fits the OP definition of a "bomb drop".

/Tom

Slideorama wrote: ↑Sat Apr 27, 2019 6:51 pm Hmm.

Just play your part.

Mike

That´s it. Sometimes the music is writen with an anticipated bass tone. Just play it.
Never heard of Bomb drops. Must be a teen thing.

Yes it Tony Studd playing with Kai W. Another voice than GR, also very nice.

Tony Studd playing Besame Mucho on the Kai Ole' album?