A Personal Tale About Urbie Green And Bill Watrous

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tbdana
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A Personal Tale About Urbie Green And Bill Watrous

Post by tbdana »

I'm sure both these players have been talked to death here. But I'm still new hereabouts, and I just was thinking about them, as they were both role models for me, and wanted to put down my thoughts somewhere, before I get too old to remember them. Please forgive this indulgence, and feel free to not bother reading this long post.

My father was a rat bastard, but he paid for my trombone lessons, drove me to band/orchestra practice, and scoured the record stores to find me albums featuring trombonists. One day, he came home with two albums by a guy named Urbie Green. Those records immediately changed my life. I had never heard a trombone sound that lush and warm and romantic, and I had never heard anyone with such facility on this difficult instrument. Urbie immediately became my favorite trombonist. I spent endless hours trying to play along with his records.

When I was 12, my dad took me to hear a big band led by jazz trombonist Si Zenter. On a break I went up to Si to talk to him, but I could only think of two questions to ask him: "Do you know Urbie Green?" and "What's he like?" Si also had a young section trombonist touring with him named Billy Watrous. I ignored him. I had no interest in mere sidemen. At that point, I cared only about Urbie Green. Si Zenter might as well have been a janitor for all I cared. And sideman Billy Watrous was nonexistent to me.

Years later, when I was a young adult and naively (and very wrongly) believed that I was hot stuff on the trombone, a friend brought over an album called the Manhattan Wildlife Refuge, featuring that old sideman Bill Watrous. This was the second album to change my life. On that album was a tune called Fourth Floor Walkup. (Coincidentally, when I moved to New York I lived in a fourth floor walkup in the wildest part of Manhattan, but that's another story.)

Fourth Floor Walkup featured a blazing cadenza by Bill Watrous. I say cadenza, but really it was something other-worldly, to me. It was a technical demonstration on the trombone the likes of which I had never even dreamed was possible. And in the 1970s, it was something that had never been recorded before. It was like stepping out of Plato's notorious cave, and being blinded by the sun, hearing what this man could do with a six-foot length of brass pipe.

I locked myself in my bedroom and listened to that tune 20 times in a row, and when I was done I knew my life was about to change again. There was no going forward with the trombone the way I had been. I had woken up to the fact that I was light years away from being competitive, and I knew I had to make a choice: either I could quit and throw my trombone in the ocean and find something else to do, or I could lock myself in the practice room for the next ten years and devote my every waking moment to woodshedding the utterly impossible things I had heard on that cut. It was inspiring, but it was also soul crushing.

After coming very close the ocean thing, I eventually opted for the woodshed. I practiced eight hours a day. And that eventually led me to Los Angeles, and an effort to become a professional trombonist.

To my eternal regret, I never played with Urbie Green. But in the late 1970s I did meet Bill Watrous. I was new to L.A. and trying to become a musician. One day, Ted Nash -- son of another trombone role model, Dick Nash -- called me and said, "Can you sub in this fusion band tonight? We have a gig at a club on Sunset, and I need a trombone right now. There's no money. It's a freebie." My philosophy at the time was to play anywhere and everywhere I could, so I reluctantly jumped in my car and sight read a very difficult book on the gig.

After an hour we took a break, and this guy comes up to me and introduces himself to me as Bill Watrous. He tells me he just got divorced and moved from New York to L.A., and he was starting a west coast version of his big band, which he was planning to call Refuge West. His band's first rehearsal was coming up at C&D Music in Sepulveda. Al Vizzutti and Phil Teele were going to be there. He said he liked my playing and asked if I wanted to come play in the rehearsal. Of course, I said yes. That was the beginning of 15 years of playing with Watrous, both occasionally in his big band and on a variety of other gigs. He was kind enough to help get me on many recording sessions, and one weekly comedy TV show that featured a live band.

Eventually, Bill and I became friends, and I was able to observe his phenomenal playing up close for over a decade, at a time when he was the best trombonist on earth and was in his absolute prime. For a young trombonist like me, it was an education in some very good and a couple not so good ways. I came to have some thoughts about Urbie and Billy. These are some of them:

Urbie and Bill were essentially two iterations of the same trombone player. Urbie was a generation ahead of Bill, and Urbie was Bill's early role model. Urbie was also my first trombone role model, and Billy was my second.
As people, Urbie and Bill were polar opposites. Urbie was quiet, reserved, and shy, but secretly sported a subversive little mean streak that cut many a lesser player. Bill, OTOH, was an extrovert, with a big heart and a larger than life personality. People fell into two categories with Bill. He either loved you or he hated you, with no in-between. For Urbie, playing was spiritual. For Bill, it was a competitive athletic event. And yet, these polar opposite personalities were the same trombone player on the inside.

They both shared a single embouchure, and it is the best embouchure I've ever seen. They placed the mouthpiece to their lips, and it never moved. They had a single "set" no matter the range or what they were playing. Their embouchure was "upper dominant," meaning that more of their upper lip was in the mouthpiece and the lower served as their foundation. Both of them used only enough pressure on the mouthpiece to keep a seal, and no more. Neither of them liked to play loud. They would "fill up the horn," but never overblow it, and the preference of both was to play no louder than a mezzo forte. "Any idiot can play loud," Watrous would say. "And destroy their chops."

Urbie and Bill shared a trait that was amazing to me: apparent effortlessness. No matter what they were playing -- no matter how high or low, fast or slow, loud or soft -- their embouchure never moved or changed. And they always looked completely relaxed. Same with their facial expressions. You couldn't even see them working. All the effort happened inside the mouthpiece, and none of it showed on the outside. For all appearances they could have been waiting for a bus rather than playing extremely difficult material on the trombone.

Urbie and Bill, along with Dick Nash and Tommy Dorsey, were my role models for playing ballads on the trombone. Buttery smooth and vocal-like, with long phrases, soft articulations, and a delicate touch, I judged my own ballad playing by how closely I could approximate theirs.

Both men mastered the entire instrument, from the very lowest possible notes, to the very highest, with soft-but-focused tones and lightning fast technique/facility. All those things awed and inspired me, and I did my best to emulate those things in my own playing.

Of course I had other trombonists who inspired me, a great many from Emery Remington to Ralph Saur to Roy Main to Dick Nash to Frank Rosolino, but Urbie and Bill occupied the most space in my soul, and still do. I never became the player those guys were. And as I'm rapidly approaching old age and have only recently started playing again after a long break, I know I will never will. But to this day, every time I pick up a trombone and play commercial or jazz music, the souls of Urbie Green and Bill Watrous come out the end of my bell, however attenuated their remnants may be as filtered through my feeble and flawed efforts.

I apologize for this self-indulgent post and my trip in the way back machine. Please forgive me. Did anyone here ever play with Urbie? If so, I will be forever envious of you. :)
cb56
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Re: A Personal Tale About Urbie Green And Bill Watrous

Post by cb56 »

Enjoyed your story. You're blessed to have had that musical journey.
imsevimse
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Re: A Personal Tale About Urbie Green And Bill Watrous

Post by imsevimse »

Thanks for sharing this. I've never heard Urbie live, only on record. He is a role model of mine and so is Bill. I saw Bill in the 80-ies live at Skeppsholmen Jazz Festival here in Sweden. Amazing!!! Have numerous records with both Ubie and Bill. They were the best.

/Tom
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Doug Elliott
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Re: A Personal Tale About Urbie Green And Bill Watrous

Post by Doug Elliott »

In DC in the '70's, Urbie played at Blues Alley a few times every year. I was sitting in the first row right in front of him nearly every night. Coincidentally, the house drummer at Blues Alley was Bill Reichenbach 's father, also named Bill Reichenbach.
If you listen to the Colorado Jazz Party album, you will hear that Urbie could definitely overblow in his soloing. It always surprised me that he pretty much had two completely different sounds that he used at different times.

I first heard Bill Watrous at the International Trombone Workshops in Nashville, which I attended every year. Hearing him live was just amazing and I found it very inspiring, in addition to hearing Phil Wilson, Eje Thelin, Urbie, Rosolino, Frank Rehak, Carl Fontana, Hal Crook, and many other fantastic players who were there over the years. Including the orchestral players from the US and Europe.
"I know a thing or two because I've seen a thing or two."
2bobone
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Re: A Personal Tale About Urbie Green And Bill Watrous

Post by 2bobone »

Wow ! That was a love letter if I've ever heard one ! Those influential players had no idea what they set in motion with their incredible talents. Thanks for sharing that !
I can share a short Urbie story : John Marcellus and I were members of the National Symphony Orchestra in Washngton, D.C. One night, John suggested that we go to Blues Alley to catch Urbie in action. I definitely recall that Urbie was using some kind of electronic "doubling" device and was intrigued at how well he used it. The manager of the club at the time was Steve Jordon, himself a fine guitarist. We chatted with Steve in the bar since the main club was full to capacity [ I think that Doug Elliott got the last available seat]. Steve, after discovering that he had a couple of symphony trombonists in the house, asked if we'd like to meet Urbie during the next break. Of course we did ---- and of course we did ! I was amazed to meet this gentleman for whom I had such great admiration but was totally surprised at his reaction to meeting John and myself. As much as we wanted to know how he managed to play like God, he wanted to understand how we could play under the strict orders that came from someone waving a baton on a podium ! We never resolved either question but now I have another nagging question---------- I wonder if Doug Elliott was there at the same time ? :idk:
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dukesboneman
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Re: A Personal Tale About Urbie Green And Bill Watrous

Post by dukesboneman »

When I was in High School, my Band directors brought in Urbie as a Guest Soloist. This was very early 1970`s
I was blown away with the fact that the trombone could do "That".
The year before I had the revelation of sitting in front of the Kenton Trombone section when they were on tour with the "Live at Redlands" album Dick Shearer scared the crap out of me. So forceful and unapologetically in your face. I Loved it.
Urbie was the opposite side of the coin. I had the privledge of playing with Urbie 4 times after high school when he would come to town and we would re-create the 21 Trombones . Still a fave of mine
Then I "discovered" Watrous !!!!!
I couldn`t get enough of Bill. I bought every album I could find. Every Famous Door recording.
I would sit with the headphones on and just listen to what Bill did with Vibrato or tonguing.
I`ve had the good fortune to take lessons with Kia Winding, Ashley Alexander, Rob McConnell and Al Grey.
Al had an ICREDIBLE impact on me ( and that`s a whole different story) but Urbie and Bill had such lasting impact on me.
Always something to strive for
Here`s a picture of the ONLY Time Urbie and Emory Remington Met at the after party when Urbie played at my high school. Jim Pugh brought Remington to the Party
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Bach5G
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Re: A Personal Tale About Urbie Green And Bill Watrous

Post by Bach5G »

I had an CD of Bill and a big band that, given the photo of a very young looking Bill on the cover, must have been recorded in the very early 60s. It was … unremarkable. IIRC there was very little of what we came to expect from Bill after about 1970.

MWR and 4th Floor Walkup were earth shattering in trombone world. I saw Bill playing with the Bobby Hales band in John Oliver high school here in Vancouver in about 1976. I can’t remember how we clued in to Bill but the venue, a high school auditorium was full. Bill was stunning. What happened in the decade leading up to MWR would make an interesting thesis (if it hasn’t been done already). Hours and hours of practice I suppose. But a lot of people put in hours and hours of practice.
Last edited by Bach5G on Thu Oct 26, 2023 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Doug Elliott
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Re: A Personal Tale About Urbie Green And Bill Watrous

Post by Doug Elliott »

2bobone wrote: Thu Oct 26, 2023 5:31 pm ...now I have another nagging question---------- I wonder if Doug Elliott was there at the same time ? :idk:
Maybe... I was in high school and studying with Marcellus starting about 1969 or 1970.
That was when the cover charge was about $2. Tonight I heard Jon Faddis at Blues Alley and the cover charge was $42
Two weeks ago I heard Wycliffe there.
One thing about Urbie's gigs - he pretty much always played the same tunes, all the years he was there. Sidewinder, Tangerine, Meditation...
"I know a thing or two because I've seen a thing or two."
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Re: A Personal Tale About Urbie Green And Bill Watrous

Post by brassmedic »

tbdana wrote: Thu Oct 26, 2023 3:59 pm Both of them used only enough pressure on the mouthpiece to keep a seal, and no more. Neither of them liked to play loud. They would "fill up the horn," but never overblow it, and the preference of both was to play no louder than a mezzo forte. "Any idiot can play loud," Watrous would say. "And destroy their chops."
As a college student, I was hired for one of the "student" chairs for an orchestra concert where Bill was playing lead. He had a solo, which he played right into the mic as he always did. But the conductor asked him if he could play it louder. He said, under his breath (but still loud enough that everyone could hear him), "I don't do that." Of course he could - He did a lot of clinics where he would show that he was able to play very loudly. But as you said, he didn't like to.
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Bach5G
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Re: A Personal Tale About Urbie Green And Bill Watrous

Post by Bach5G »

brassmedic wrote: Fri Oct 27, 2023 12:08 am
tbdana wrote: Thu Oct 26, 2023 3:59 pm Both of them used only enough pressure on the mouthpiece to keep a seal, and no more. Neither of them liked to play loud. They would "fill up the horn," but never overblow it, and the preference of both was to play no louder than a mezzo forte. "Any idiot can play loud," Watrous would say. "And destroy their chops."
As a college student, I was hired for one of the "student" chairs for an orchestra concert where Bill was playing lead. He had a solo, which he played right into the mic as he always did. But the conductor asked him if he could play it louder. He said, under his breath (but still loud enough that everyone could hear him), "I don't do that." Of course he could - He did a lot of clinics where he would show that he was able to play very loudly. But as you said, he didn't like to.
Sam Burtis once wrote about Bill making his choices. Soft, on the mike.
baileyman
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Re: A Personal Tale About Urbie Green And Bill Watrous

Post by baileyman »

A friend in Beverly MA, now passed, said he played with Bill in the navy. He said, "He was just one of the trombone players." I think he said something like, Bill changed after he heard Carl Fontana, but I may misremember, or even cut and paste from other places.
Bach5G
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Re: A Personal Tale About Urbie Green And Bill Watrous

Post by Bach5G »

Has anyone written a decent biography of Bill?
BoneRob
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Re: A Personal Tale About Urbie Green And Bill Watrous

Post by BoneRob »

That is a beautiful story about Urbie and Bill. I'm just a weekend warrior but I also was fortunate enough to have been around both of them in my early years. They both inspired me as well. Urbie was a guest artist at my high school in 1973 and we played a couple of the 21Trombones numbers. So I can say that I DID get to play with Urbie. Then right after high school in the summer of 1974 I attended the International Trombone Association convention in Nashville. I remember taking workshops with Phil Wilson and Watrous, among others. Bill's workshop pretty much consisted of playing tracks from Manhattan Wildlife Refuge (with him playing along live). It was either about to be released or had just been released. I was amazed and bought it as soon as I could after I got home. I also remember a quick conversation with Urbie about him coming to our school the previous year. All these years later I still smile when I remember that summer!
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LetItSlide
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Re: A Personal Tale About Urbie Green And Bill Watrous

Post by LetItSlide »

To my eternal regret, I passed up a chance to sit and have a drink with Urbie. The place was Fargo, North Dakota, in the spring of 1980. I was part of a 20-trombone group that backed Urbie. I played 1st parts and even had a 16-bar solo, receiving a little golf clap from Urbie at the performance. I finished the solo with a double-high B-flat, which is about all I remember about the solo. Afterwards, we were invited to a bar. When I walked in, Urbie was seated at the bar and he looked right at me. Being shy at the time, I walked on by. Sad, right? I was star-struck and had no idea what I’d say to him. I was 20 years old.

Now, 45 years later, I’d have no problem approaching him, introducing myself, and having a nice chat for as long as he would indulge me. But the opportunity is long gone, and that’s how it is.
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dershem
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Re: A Personal Tale About Urbie Green And Bill Watrous

Post by dershem »

When I was in the Navy School of Music in 1978, Bill came and did a clinic and a concert (with the Navy band Commodores). The next day 4 army trombonists quit. Turned in their horns and asked to be transferred to the infantry.
I got to work with Bill about 15 years ago, I told him about that (and about a bunch of other things - he was a great hang) He teared up. "That's not what I was there for!" He wanted everyone to be inspired to play more and better.
I miss him greatly.
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