Mouthpiece reccomendation extremely high register

[tychoridder]

Hey all!
This is my first post here so let me know if something is wrong about style or question asked.
I have been playing for quite a while. Basically I've held a trombone in my hands since I was able to hold one. I have been playing actively in a new orchestra lately and I am enjoying mendelsohn more than I thought I would, however many of my pieces are in an extremely high register. I do often hit the notes, but I keep wondering if a new mouthpiece would improve my play. Last time I had this problem, it turned out it was the mouthpiece. The problems form in the high a to c range. This also sometimes results in cramps.

For now I have been using the vincent bach 18c and I have been looking to get a vincent bach 15EW. I have also played the bugle for some time so I think I can find my way around a very small cup. The problem is, no one I know has this mouthpiece to try out. So its a gamble on buying it.

Let me know about your thoughts!

Tycho

[BGuttman]

I don't advocate using smaller mouthpieces to play high. It's like trying to jump higher by wearing small shoes.

I will say that a shallower mouthpiece can help your upper register, but at the expense of your lower register.

There is an exercise in the Remington set that works on rangebuilding. It's called "Security in the Upper Register". I used this exercise with some modifications to expand my upper register from an iffy C (C5) to a reliable F above (F5). It takes a while, but you can get there.

Note that I play a 1.02" rim (roughly Bach 4 size). After I learned to play (on a 12C) I generally gravitated to larger and larger rims. If your facial structure calls for that also, you will find that small mouthpieces don't help matters at all.

Good luck.

[MStarke]

What kind of music do you play?

Very generally speaking: If you are already on a Bach 18c and struggling with high a to c range, going even smaller is probably not the right way, but more adapting something in your playing or even going larger.

I am saying "generally" and "probably" because there can always be exceptions and there are better experts than myself.

[harrisonreed]

I'm going to guess that a "normal" sized mouthpiece like a 6 1/2 AL or 6 3/4, and lots of practice in the low register, lip slurs, etc, would vastly improve your upper register -- much more than trying tiny mouthpieces.

The upper register is about air and embouchure mechanics, which both work better if you use a cup width that fits your face. The cup depth is a factor that affects the tone and the feeling of compression, and, generally, shallow mouthpieces make the upper register easier to play.

Like Bruce said, if your feet fit properly in size 10 shoes, strapping on size 4 moon shoes won't help you jump higher. You need size 10 moon shoes. The Bach 15 is a classic example from a time where mouthpiece makers made "moon shoes" to help you jump higher (the shallow alto cup), but only offered them in one size (the cup diameter, in the case).

[Posaunus]

Unlike the "bad old days" (when the only mouthpieces available were the ones Vincent Bach designed) it's now possible to get a shallow cup mouthpiece (that can enhance high range), with a rim size that will fit your face.

I briefly tried going the Bach "tiny mouthpiece" route. Didn't work for me (or anyone that I know).

[Kingfan]

I agree with all of the above. I had trouble on high notes playing lead in a big band on a small bore and found that a Bach 5 really opened up the horn for me, especially the high range. You could get a Skype session with Doug Elliott and he can pretty much pinpoint what you need without you having to try a bunch of different pieces. Good luck!

[KingThings]

I have a bunch of mouthpieces. I like my King 29 on my 1480 and 11M on my 3B. Both are just stock mouthpieces. The 18 you have is already a super-small mouthpiece, so maybe a pair of tight shoes is the answer......

[Doldom]

Many of Mendelssohn's pieces are really meant for alto trombone. Most of Beethoven's and some of Brahms' , too. 18C and 15EW are more suitable to alto trombone or very small bore peashooter trombone. If you use these with normallish tenor trombone you may form a bad habit eventually(although some can do). If you are struggling high A to C range, then, consider leaving the principal part to the professionals and play the second trombone part, and concentrate on rhythm and intonation. After you are more developed, then you can play principal part without forming bad habits.

[Cotboneman]

This thread reminds me of my high school years. 1971-75. All of the brass players in my Chicago high school were enamored with Maynard in those years, and thought the secret to success in the upper register was playing on smaller and smaller mouthpieces. I played trombone and baritone horn in those days on a Bach 17C or an 18EW(!), which achieved the high notes, but at the cost of a thin, brittle tone and terrible out of tune low register among other problems. It wasn't until college that I was introduced to the concepts of breath control, embouchure techniques, mechanics, and a lot of work! The other issue might be appropriate equipment. Those early 19C first trombone parts were really meant for alto trombone. I don't know what equipment you are playing on, but that could be an issue. If you are going to play those parts on a small bore tenor it will take much work. There are great suggestions and resources cited here to build up your technique. Good luck!

[LetItSlide]

The answer will be different for every player. My journey through high school and college included building my lower and upper range on a Bach 6-1/2 AL, about as middle-of-the-road mouthpiece as there is. Later in life when I found enough time and energy to get back into music, I played in a trombone choir, jazz ensembles and church groups. When playing .508 bore horns for 1st trombone and lead parts, I haven't been able to beat the Denis Wick Classic 10CS mouthpiece. I find it very comfortable and it facilitates the least effort (for me) in the high register.

A well developed embouchure can play high with larger mouthpieces, and might even find more overall comfort than with smaller mouthpieces. Two big factors are the equipment used in the player's development history and individual face/dental structure. We're all different.

If I were teaching young students, which I did a little bit of at one time, I wouldn't discuss range development much because there are basic technique and musical playing goals that are much higher priority. But if the student was killing it in those areas and asked about range development, I'd probably say to stick with whatever mouthpiece they currently use and play familiar melodies by ear in all keys, both in the lower and upper parts of the range. And then I'd hand h(er/im) my ancient Charles S. Peters Total Range book and advise doing lots of lips slurs, per the book.

Once in the 4 octave club, THEN pick a new mouthpiece.

[boneAngo]

mouthpiece can't help ur high registers. so called "mouthpiece for high register" only make the tone at high register more sophisticated but not plain. for example, u can hit those high F (F5?) on a bass trombone or even a tuba (?) with those thin rim, deep and large throat mpc. why we won't use a bass trombone to play the famous bolero excerpt is because the sound quality but not difficulty of hitting notes. go practice scales and appregios and u will find high register easy. if u rly want a mouthpiece which has a nice tone in high register, you gonna try out different mpc as everyone's lips, lungs are not the same so don't just follow what master says. Try it and Choose it yourself.

[Cmillar]

All of the brass players in my Chicago high school were enamored with Maynard in those years, and thought the secret to success in the upper register was playing on smaller and smaller mouthpieces.

For the OP, even Maynard had some lessons with Doc Reinhardt. (that can be verified by a trumpet player I know who was there during one of his lessons)

So, I would suggest that you get hold of Doug Elliott and quit wasting time messing around with different mouthpieces and get diagnosed as to what you need for your physical makeup and what brass playing exercises you need in order to achieve what you're after.

At the very least, get hold of some Reinhardt material and digest it.

[tbdana]

Not the way I would have phrased it, but I agree with the concept in this post:

mouthpiece can't help ur high registers. so called "mouthpiece for high register" only make the tone at high register more sophisticated but not plain. for example, u can hit those high F (F5?) on a bass trombone or even a tuba (?) with those thin rim, deep and large throat mpc. why we won't use a bass trombone to play the famous bolero excerpt is because the sound quality but not difficulty of hitting notes. go practice scales and appregios and u will find high register easy. if u rly want a mouthpiece which has a nice tone in high register, you gonna try out different mpc as everyone's lips, lungs are not the same so don't just follow what master says. Try it and Choose it yourself.

Honestly, the mouthpiece is a non-issue in terms of hitting notes. It only changes the tone of the note, not the ability to play it. I can play a double-Bb with a 2G on my bass trombone because what's going on in my lips, tongue and air speed is what makes the note sound. Everything after that, from the rim of the mouthpiece to the end of my bell, only changes its character.

The thing about high notes is either you can play them or you can't. It doesn't matter what mouthpiece you choose. If you can play them, then choose a mouthpiece you like for other reasons. If you can't play them, go home and practice until you can, and don't worry about the mouthpiece.

[Reedman1]

After trying some 50 - 60 mouthpieces, I eventually learned a few things that help with playing in the high register:
1. Lip flexibilities
2. Work on your false pedals
3. Play short, simple melodies starting in upper middle range and transpose them up a half step every few days. Rest a lot, and periodically play quiet low tones to relax your embouchure.
4. Relax.
5. Be patient.
6. If there is a teacher available and you can afford lessons, take lessons.
7. Play a normal-sized mouthpiece like a 12c or larger. The 18c or smaller will probably hinder your progress.

[Windmill]

Agreed with the stuff above. For me, a mouthpiece is the interface between you and your horn, nothing more. It should be selected to make you feel a good and sain relationship with the instrument. The rest is work...