Earl Williams Trombone

ttf_Euphanasia · Post by **ttf_Euphanasia** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 6:46 am

Quote from: DaveAshleySerial #1055??????

MINE is #1055

This is the most bizarre thing ever.

Will the real Earl Williams Model 6 #1055 please stand up??
Curiouser and curiouser!

How does the stamping look on other Williams horns? Is it precise like in Koda's picture, or crooked like in Dave's?

I can't wait to see how this pans out!!

ttf_DaveAshley · Post by **ttf_DaveAshley** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 7:07 am

Hey Koda -- where's the 'Earl Williams' stamping? It wasn't shown in those pictures....

ttf_Euphanasia · Post by **ttf_Euphanasia** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 7:11 am

Is it possible that Williams started the numbers over when he moved to a new shop? Seems like a strange thing to do, but I can't imagine what else would cause a serial number to be doubled.

ttf_MoominDave · Post by **ttf_MoominDave** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 7:21 am

Could it be that the apparent serial is a MMYY style date - October 1955?

ttf_DaveAshley · Post by **ttf_DaveAshley** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 7:49 am

Quote from: MoominDave on Feb 05, 2009, 07:21AMCould it be that the apparent serial is a MMYY style date - October 1955?
No.

I don't know about Koda's, but mine is a Burbank-made horn. He moved to Burbank in 1964(ish)

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 8:26 am

I seem to recall John Noxon mentioning that serial numbers got start over at least once.

ttf_bachbone · Post by **ttf_bachbone** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 8:58 am

My horn doesn't have a bell marking. Could be a custom thing. I am interested in serial numbers now because that is WEIRD

Everything adds up though. Bought it from a guy in California too. This horn is AMAZING!

When did they go over serial numbers?

ttf_john sandhagen · Post by **ttf_john sandhagen** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 9:08 am

1055?

ttf_bachbone · Post by **ttf_bachbone** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 9:15 am

Quote from: john sandhagen on Feb 05, 2009, 09:08AM1055?

That might be why you are familier with the serial number.

Hey JohnL, might want to check to see if you you still have your williams

ttf_john sandhagen · Post by **ttf_john sandhagen** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 9:19 am

ttf_DaveAshley · Post by **ttf_DaveAshley** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 9:20 am

Maybe it was supposed to be 10055.

I had 10003 -- Calicchio-made and the color of the chrome looked a similar gray to Koda's. My Burbank is much brighter.

I just compared the pictures in the gallery to my 6. On Koda's, the tuning bit above the bell stem is longer and the bell stem is shorter. All the tuning bits line up on mine.

Like you see in this big of Big T:

ttf_bachbone · Post by **ttf_bachbone** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 9:26 am

So is mine a Fake?

Where can I find a serial number list or do I have to look through ancient manuscript to see them?

ttf_DaveAshley · Post by **ttf_DaveAshley** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 9:33 am

Quote from: bachbone on Feb 05, 2009, 09:26AMSo is mine a Fake?

Where can I find a serial number list or do I have to look through ancient manuscript to see them?

Well, it is a real trombone. Whether it was made by Earl himself or not, I can't say.

Hopefully, time travel technology will progress soon, because the only man who would have the information you need passed away 33 years ago.

ttf_bachbone · Post by **ttf_bachbone** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 11:24 am

Hmmmm Can you post some pictures of your williams 6 SN 1055 so I can compare?

How customized were they back then? I noticed on mine that the smaller tuning slide pipe is shorter than the larger tuning slide part. This makes it so that you can pull the short tuning slide out all the way and still have .5-1 inch of the bigger pipe still in.

Is there different pat numbers?

When did he start using the weird spit key? If he stopped using them, when was that?

ttf_DaveAshley · Post by **ttf_DaveAshley** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 5:45 pm

ttf_DaveAshley · Post by **ttf_DaveAshley** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 5:54 pm

Quote from: bachbone on Feb 05, 2009, 11:24AMHow customized were they back then? I noticed on mine that the smaller tuning slide pipe is shorter than the larger tuning slide part. This makes it so that you can pull the short tuning slide out all the way and still have .5-1 inch of the bigger pipe still in. Is there different pat numbers? When did he start using the weird spit key? If he stopped using them, when was that?

I don't know much about the customization. It looks like yours has a longer tuning bit, so as to set the bell further out (Williams are built with a shorter bell, making tuning a little different. Some can never adjust...)

The patents are for the grip and the water key.
Spit valve patent is #02439997
Curved grip patent is #01782452
You can view the documents and photos at www.uspto.gov

ttf_bachbone · Post by **ttf_bachbone** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 6:08 pm

That is why my C's never seem to be in tune! Short bell!

Looks and feels different.

I am in the process of contacting the owner to get some more history on it. He was going to sell it to his band directer because he really wanted it. I will get info soon on it.

ttf_bachbone · Post by **ttf_bachbone** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:22 pm

Since we know that both 6's are twins, which on is the evil one?

ttf_DaveAshley · Post by **ttf_DaveAshley** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 5:24 pm

I think this is more of a "clone" situation than a "twin" situation. The clone shows some mutations...
No shame in it, though, if you like it -- unless you paid more than I did (which I will not be disclosing -- it was a bunch...)

ttf_Hank Lambert · Post by **ttf_Hank Lambert** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 5:53 pm

Dave-- don't you have Dick Nash's old 6 ???

ttf_DaveAshley · Post by **ttf_DaveAshley** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 5:56 pm

No, but I've played it. Pretty killer.
Supposedly mine was Dick "Slyde" Hyde's.

ttf_dj kennedy · Post by **ttf_dj kennedy** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 7:15 pm

kodas ==slide grip is round //otherwise everything looks burbanl era
-----
cant tell if its short tuning
bruce smith had a shortie
callichio made parts that brought it to pitch

ttf_onetrombone · Post by **ttf_onetrombone** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 8:41 pm

The variations are all just so curious...it's like unraveling a mystery without enough clues.

Do we know who bought the 6 that just sold on eBay? I only ask because it had a grip like Koda's. It looked round and it had the same longer sort of 'guard' on the top of the lower outer slide tube. Notice how short it is on Dave's and long on Koda's?

Koda: what do the bell markings look like? Can you add a picture of that--not the serial/model stamp like you already did, I mean the bit where is says Williams. I'm curious to see if it looks like mine--which is different than Dave's...

ttf_Euphanasia · Post by **ttf_Euphanasia** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 8:46 pm

Quote from: onetrombone on Feb 06, 2009, 08:41PM

Koda: what do the bell markings look like? Can you add a picture of that--not the serial/model stamp like you already did, I mean the bit where is says Williams. I'm curious to see if it looks like mine--which is different than Dave's...

From what Koda has described, it sounds as though it doesn't have any bell markings. I'm wondering if perhaps the bell was replaced with another brand and the tuning slide was altered to suit the new bell's length. Has anyone heard of a Willams with an unstamped bell?

ttf_bachbone · Post by **ttf_bachbone** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 11:51 pm

Quote from: Euphanasia on Feb 06, 2009, 08:46PMFrom what Koda has described, it sounds as though it doesn't have any bell markings. I'm wondering if perhaps the bell was replaced with another brand and the tuning slide was altered to suit the new bell's length. Has anyone heard of a Willams with an unstamped bell?

No bell marking. I got the chance to play a Burbank horn a week ago. I analyzed the bell rim, and everything looks very similar. Same rim shape, same bell diameter, same color...

I read the other posts and they say something about a special kind of metal that Earl made his horns with. All the metal on this horn is the same color all around.

This adds mystery to the horn. I will uncover some of it as soon as I get a response from the seller. Busy guy he is.

Wonder if a collector has seen anything with these horns that resembles mine...

ttf_bachbone · Post by **ttf_bachbone** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 1:55 pm

Ha!!!

Two words: Richard Chover! I bought it from him. He told me he played it in HS though so it could still be built by Earl. Wasn't Riches originally from what I understand.

Did Richard make horns? from what read, looks like he sold the company because he wasn't experienced enough to continue it. I don't know. Still trying to communicate with him right now to get more information.

ttf_Bobmranger · Post by **ttf_Bobmranger** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 2:17 pm

I bought a new Williams 6 from Earl Williams in 1963. The bell was not marked at all. Just forward of the rear brace, close to the tuning slide, was engraved "Earl Williams" and under that "Burbank CA" in letters about 1/8 in high.

ttf_Ellrod · Post by **ttf_Ellrod** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 2:24 pm

What did Earl charge for a new t-bone back in, say, the early 70's?

ttf_Bobmranger · Post by **ttf_Bobmranger** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:30 pm

New 1963 Earl Williams 6, was $225 without case or mouthpiece. The price as Mr Williams shipped it to me was $275, including a square case. I had an unused Conn Director case, so I sent the new case back to Williams with a check for $225.

ttf_jnoxon · Post by **ttf_jnoxon** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 12:31 pm

Interesting. I have never seen two horns of the same model with the same serial number. Each model had its own numbering system. I had a 4 and an 8 with the same number, but not the same model. Koda's horn is Rich Chovners old horn. It is a Burbank Wms, it has been re-lacquered a couple times that I know of, according to Rich. When I first met him, the engraving was very faint from buffing to refinished the horn. Good horn plays very well! The serial numbers started over when he moved from Santa Monica Blvd to the Burbank shop. The engraving was also different. The Santa Monica horns had an arrowhead on the bell. Down where most companies engraved horns on the flair. The Burbanks had three lines, Earl Williams, Custom Trombones, Burbank CA. After Earl died and Bob continued making horns he changed the engraving, and a feature or two. They were marked with Earl Williams on the bell stem, and the custom made and Burbank Ca was on the hand grip. Bob also used nickel crooks, round crooks on the hand slide, not dual radius that Earl had used most of the time.

Dave you are right I got yours from Dick Hyde. Dick Nash's horn you know where that is and always will be!

ttf_bachbone · Post by **ttf_bachbone** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 1:58 pm

Quote from: jnoxon on Feb 08, 2009, 12:31PMInteresting. I have never seen two horns of the same model with the same serial number. Each model had its own numbering system. I had a 4 and an 8 with the same number, but not the same model. Koda's horn is Rich Chovners old horn. It is a Burbank Wms, it has been re-lacquered a couple times that I know of, according to Rich. When I first met him, the engraving was very faint from buffing to refinished the horn. Good horn plays very well! The serial numbers started over when he moved from Santa Monica Blvd to the Burbank shop. The engraving was also different. The Santa Monica horns had an arrowhead on the bell. Down where most companies engraved horns on the flair. The Burbanks had three lines, Earl Williams, Custom Trombones, Burbank CA. After Earl died and Bob continued making horns he changed the engraving, and a feature or two. They were marked with Earl Williams on the bell stem, and the custom made and Burbank Ca was on the hand grip. Bob also used nickel crooks, round crooks on the hand slide, not dual radius that Earl had used most of the time.

Dave you are right I got yours from Dick Hyde. Dick Nash's horn you know where that is and always will be!

Very good to know. Just for further information for myself (and others), does refurbish mean the same thing as re-lacquered? I always thought they were one in the same, but Rich didn't tell me anything about that. Asked him if it was refurbished. Didn't say yes. He must have thought they were different things. I don't know and don't really care.

I am not disappointed at all. An absolutely wonderful horn. Did Rich lose interest in playing or something? He is not returning my calls or emails...

ttf_DaveAshley · Post by **ttf_DaveAshley** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 3:45 pm

If his horn was relacquered several times and used so much, there's no way the male connection bit on the slide would still be so well-plated, unless it was redone. Notice the difference in Koda's and mine; The chrome has mostly worn off on mine. I can't help but wonder if parts were replaced.

Either way, from the price Koda told me he got, he got a very reasonable deal on it. Very.

ttf_bachbone · Post by **ttf_bachbone** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 7:40 pm

QuoteKoda,

It's great to hear you are happy! It is a wonderful horn.

I purchased the horn from a music store about 14 years ago, so getting the history could be difficult. As for the bell and it's lack of engravings it is possible that it's been buffed down. One thing to remember with custom horns is that each one is an individual and no two are alike. The buyer may have asked for no markings on the bell or anyone of a thousand other possibilities. It may be a thinner material than usual?

Did you actually see the horn with the serial number? I've never heard of duplicate serials but anything is possible.

There were a number of people who wanted that horn so if you ever want to part with it let me know. XXXXXXXXXXX.XX is a good price. I believe it's found a good home and I hope you enjoy it for many years.

Best Wishes,

Richard Chover
Awww

. Anyone know if it is smart to get the engraving back or should I just leave it?

ttf_Euphanasia · Post by **ttf_Euphanasia** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 8:16 pm

Quote from: bachbone on Feb 08, 2009, 07:40PMAwww

. Anyone know if it is smart to get the engraving back or should I just leave it?

I think it would be a mistake to get it re-engraved. I have to say though--if I paid XXXXXXXXXXX.XX, I'd expect it to be engraved!!

Just kidding. If it plays well, why mess with it? Sounds like it's a great horn, and you can now be certain that it is the real deal. Hang onto it and play it. You might not get another shot at a horn like it.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 8:16 pm

Quote from: bachbone on Feb 08, 2009, 07:40PMAwww

. Anyone know if it is smart to get the engraving back or should I just leave it?

Don't mess with it!

If it plays good, just enjoy it.

ttf_bachbone · Post by **ttf_bachbone** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 8:47 pm

You all are right! Not going to engrave it.

OK... Last question: How can I get a spit valve cork that will fit in it? Should I just file a big one down to fit it? I have been using paper, but I have to replace it every time I play.

Is there Williams cork? Just joking...

All and all, I know that XXXXXXXXXXX.XX is a good deal and everything, and I will be keeping this horn forever. Sorry DJ, I know you had a buyer ready when I first learned about it.

If anyone sees me trying to sell it, stop me please! Knock me on the head or something. Richard wanted it to go to a good home, and I am that good person who lives in a good home

(if that is what he meant). I finally found MY horn and nothing can separate after a year of searching.

One more thing. I asked Dave this, but no response yet: Can I still be in the Williams Club even though the serial number has a duplicate who is already in the Williams club and if there is no bell engraving????

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 9:32 pm

Water key corks come in different sizes. Measure the diameter of yours in millimeters and buy one about the same size. Maybe just a little larger than the cup so you have to force it in. Then seat the nipple of the slide bow part by pressing directly on the cup of the key to create a circular depression in the cork. It takes three seconds to show and lots of words to describe.

ttf_DaveAshley · Post by **ttf_DaveAshley** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 9:55 pm

Quote from: bachbone on Feb 08, 2009, 08:47PMCan I still be in the Williams Club even though the serial number has a duplicate who is already in the Williams club and if there is no bell engraving????

If it looks like a Williams, feels like a Williams, and plays like a Williams.....it's a Williams (or a really good Kanstul 1606)

Sure, you're in.

ttf_bachbone · Post by **ttf_bachbone** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:29 pm

http://cgi.ebay.com/Earl-Williams-Trombone-Jazz-Trombone-Serial-6-814_W0QQitemZ130286473500QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBrass_Instruments?hash=item130286473500&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2|65%3A13|39%3A1|240%3A1318

Looks like it got reposted and sold with a buy it now. Wonder who bought it

ttf_DaveAshley · Post by **ttf_DaveAshley** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:41 pm

Whoever that is -- looks like it's going to Canada, eh?
http://myworld.ebay.com/sharman1

ttf_bachbone · Post by **ttf_bachbone** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:49 pm

Quote from: DaveAshley on Feb 09, 2009, 08:41PMWhoever that is -- looks like it's going to Canada, eh?
http://myworld.ebay.com/sharman1

How did you get his info like that? Doing a little hacking?

Wait... Is that Eskimo, the other guy that collects Williams horns.

ttf_DaveAshley · Post by **ttf_DaveAshley** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:03 pm

Went to sellers feedback profile and looked at feedback left for others. Simple.

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:09 pm

Quote from: bachbone on Feb 09, 2009, 08:49PMWait... Is that Eskimo, the other guy that collects Williams horns.You mean quinntheeskimo? Doubtful. He operates out the Seattle area. He sells under the name quinntheeskimo and buys under the name fluteland.

ttf_Ellrod · Post by **ttf_Ellrod** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:20 pm

I'm only guessing but I expect Sharman1 is Sharman King, a bass trombonist from Vancouver. I think he has a collection of Williams horns.

ttf_bachbone · Post by **ttf_bachbone** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:35 pm

Quote from: DaveAshley on Feb 09, 2009, 09:03PMWent to sellers feedback profile and looked at feedback left for others. Simple.

Why didn't I think of that???

So simple it is hard to think of...

ttf_bachbone · Post by **ttf_bachbone** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:34 pm

Quote from: JohnL on Feb 09, 2009, 09:09PMYou mean quinntheeskimo? Doubtful. He operates out the Seattle area. He sells under the name quinntheeskimo and buys under the name fluteland.

Just looked at the items he bought, and it is amazing how many good deals he got!!!! Take a look

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=fluteland&ftab=FeedbackAsBuyer

He probably does it for a full time business or something like that. Unbelievable!

ttf_Duffle · Post by **ttf_Duffle** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:02 am

I was under the impression that the Shires small bore was based on the Williams 6 - how do they compare?.......

ttf_dj kennedy · Post by **ttf_dj kennedy** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:06 am

shires ????not even close
schmelzers are closer

Quote from: Duffle on Feb 10, 2009, 12:02AMI was under the impression that the Shires small bore was based on the Williams 6 - how do they compare?.......

ttf_DaveAshley · Post by **ttf_DaveAshley** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:08 am

The bell flare is supposedly modeled after the Williams. Then again, it's not short like the Williams. I didn't think to compare the two when I had a Shires .508 in the collection. I do have to say -- the Shires didn't get a lot of attention; I thought it was a pretty boring trombone.

ttf_jnoxon · Post by **ttf_jnoxon** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:03 pm

Yes Dave, Sharman did buy it, He has 4 or 5 other Williams. Heck of a nice guy and a great player as well. The Schmelzer does have a different bell flair, and proportions. Not very similar at all if you played one. About the only thing in my opinion that is similar is the curved grip, not much else. Good ol Quinn has a couple Williams also.