How old is my 88H?

[stewbones43]

I have just bought a Conn 88H from Ebay!! Maybe not the wisest action but for the asking price, I couldn't resist.
The pictures showed that the lacquer was in poor condition but I planned to strip it off completely. It started to come off as soon as I put the whole instrument into a hot bath, (Covid 19 precaution) The hand slide will need some work! The trombone had been in storage for some time so the case was not only musty but also damp. It is now in the rubbish bin.

My problem is finding out how old it is as I cannot find a serial number anywhere and I have looked in all the places I should look but I suspect that it has been worn away. So the only clues I have are:-
It is not an Elkhart model I should be so lucky.
The engraving on the bell says CONN made in USA and this engraving is on the front of the bell.
The trigger action is string operated.
The hand slide is spring loaded.
The mouthpiece receiver could be Remington or standard. I have tried both types of shank and neither fits properly so I am leaning towards the idea of a Remington receiver which has had a standard shank forced into it!

Any help with the detective work would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers and stay safe

Stewbones43

[BGuttman]

After Abilene the 88H started saying Artist on the bell. The Conn USA is post-Elkhart.

I've seen Abilene horns with no discernible serial number, so yours may be one also.

My best guess would be Abilene years.

Good luck with it.

[Burgerbob]

Sounds like an '80s or '90s horn. I had one with similar markings, fixed leadpipe, string linkage.

No serial on the handslide on the grips?

Some pictures would help as well.

[stewbones43]

Thanks guys,
I will try to get some pictures when it is cleaned up better.

Cheers

Stewbones43

[chromebone]

Early Abiline horns have the same engraving as late Elkhart horns, but say “Made in USA” instead of “Elkhart, IN” You see it on some N and most P and R Series horns.

Usually you can also find the serial number on the bottom outer slide on the cork barrel end.

[TonyNeal]

Mid 70's

[mrdeacon]

Haha four different answers in this thread. Will be fun to find out who's right when we see the bell engraving!

My money is on burgerbob!

[Posaunus]

My guess (with no money at stake) would be Abilene. 70s to mid-80s. Why? Just a guess!

Serial number: look carefully on bottom of slide, near tenon, just below fixed brace.

[stewbones43]

https://mail.yahoo.com/b/folders/1/mess ... Attachment

Here is a link to a photo of the engraving on the bell of the 88H. Does that help to date it? The pattern is asymmetric and is made using a zig-zag line, probably not hand done.

Cheers

Stewbones43

PS I hope this works. The 21st century arrived before I had finished coping with the 20th.

[BGuttman]

It doesn't read.

If you use the full editor, you will have an option of attachments. This is what a lot of us use.

I understand lack of technical expertise. I have it on trombone If you send the picture to me I'll try to attach it.

[elmsandr]

Well, it is certainly old enough to know what it has done.

Will be interesting to see the pics. Do Conns have the serial number at the top of the outer slide as well? I don’t remember anymore.

Cheers,
Andy

[chromebone]

It appears you have to have a Yahoo account to view it.

[Posaunus]

It appears you have to have a Yahoo account to view it.

I have a Yahoo account, but cannot view photos.

[BGuttman]

It appears you have to have a Yahoo account to view it.

I have a Yahoo account, but cannot view photos.

You have to have Stewbones' Yahoo Account. I hope none of us can see it.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

I think stewbones gave us the answer in his final description. Zig zag lines for engraving on the front of the bell is an Abilene, TX horn. Probably early 1970s. It is before they switched to the Abilene vintage that has “Conn Artist Symphony” up and down the side of the bell.

There are quite a few Elkhart Conns that have “Made in the USA” engraved on the front. However, you need a serial number to confirm that.

[BGuttman]

6H's were marked "Made in USA" during the Elkhart years, but I'm not aware of 88H's so marked.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Yes Bruce, those 6Hs are exactly what I’m talking about. I have also seen 88Hs engraved “Made in Elkhart, IN” that were assembled in Abilene, TX.......at least the serial numbers indicate they were made in TX.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

I have heard many times that there is one thing in particular that separates the Elkhart 88Hs from the Abilene 88Hs. The Elkhart models have tapered rotors and the Abilene rotors are straight (cylinder) rotors. If you can put the rotor in the casing backwards, it is not an Elkhart.

I don’t own an Elkhart 88H, so I cannot confirm this. I have worked on Elkhart 88Hs several times, but I have forgotten to check for this feature. Any techs out there that can confirm this?

[pmgtrombone]

This is from my R series (73 - Abilene) 62H - same as yours?

(Seems I am technically challenged as well - image seems to open in a new tab after a right clock)

[Vegasbound]

If it's the one I saw on eBay, you beat me too it, my initial reaction at seeing the photos on the listing was mid 70's and may need a bit of money spending on it but was a bargain

[LeTromboniste]

It always seems a bit tricky. So many inconistencies with Conn instruments between the various factory moves and changes to the serial number system, and engraving styles. For example I had a 6H with an engraving style that most people associate with the 70s ("CG CONN LTD / Victor / USA" sideways along the side of the bell), i.e. Abilene, but with a serial number that seemed to indicated the 50's (411xxx without any prefix), i.e. Elkhart.

[stewbones43]

Hi All,

Here's an update, hopefully you'll be able to see the attached images below!

Conn 88H slide edited.JPG

Conn 88H Bell Edited.jpg

After cleaning the slide section, which had lots of decaying lacquer and some pitting, I found a serial number-E70002 at the top of the lower outer slide. There was a matching number at the top of the inner slide but because of wear only the last three numbers are visible and the bottom half of the 2 has gone! This seems to put the slide section to 1965. "ELKHART!"
The bell section is still a mystery as the engraving seems to indicate a later date, possibly either side of the Elkhart change, however following on from a suggestion about the rotor being tapered on Elkhart models but not on post Elkhart ones, I can confirm that the rotor is tapered and will not go into the rotor casing reversed.

So, where does that leave me?

Probable answer would be an Elkhart 88H from 1965 with a later bell section added, except there are no signs of a change of bell. The joints all look perfectly clean and there was no signs of any heat applied to the bell attachment points.

Still a possible mystery.

Cheers

Stewbones

[BGuttman]

I had an Elkhart Conn 79H with that engraving on the bell.

[CalgaryTbone]

What gets missed sometimes is that slides and bell sections used to get swapped regularly. Before there were modular horns, and especially removable leadpipes, people would go to Giardinellis, or whatever was the best local music store and ask to try all the 88H's or Bach 42's that were there. It was common practice to try all the combinations of bells/slides to pick the best combo that worked for you. I'm pretty sure that I did that with my first 88H that I bought in High School. I can't remember if I ended up with a horn that was brought to me as a matching bell/slide or if it was the slide from horn #1 and the bell from horn #3. For that matter, other people might have already switched parts before I got there, so the combinations might not have been original.

Nowadays, when the serial numbers are on both the slide and bell, and either you have to order from a factory or go to a smaller store with less stock, I don't think people do this except to replace a worn-out/damaged slide or bell. I would guess that a lot of older Conns and Bachs that are out there have bells and slides that are from at least slightly different eras.

Jim Scott

[stewbones43]

I had considered the suggestion above by CalgaryTbone but the fact that the rotor is tapered and not reversible does not go along with the idea that the bell and slide sections are from 2 different era trombones.

I am encouraged by BGuttman's comment regarding his Elkhart 79H having the same engraving.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to the original request. The outcome might be better than I originally thought.

[FOSSIL]

If it is an E prefix bell section, the ferrules on the large loop of the F attachment will be longer than is usual today...if they are it is most likely a replacement bell on an older E prefix bell section. If the ferrules are smaller, then most likely a later bell section from around 70/71..

Chris

[stewbones43]

Hi Chris,
Thanks for the info. You have given me 2 options; are the ferrules larger or smaller than a modern 88H. I have compared them with those on my Generation II 88H and they are the same size!

I did find a couple more interesting features.
The rotor casing and the rotor bearing back plate both have 562 with a U below stamped on them.
The knuckles leading into the rotor casing on the Gen II are a smooth, large radius curve but on the mystery trombone they are very sudden, sharp bends, just like the knuckle joint on a finger.
I include this bits of information in case they are at all relevant.

Cheers

Stewbones

[FOSSIL]

Hi Chris,
Thanks for the info. You have given me 2 options; are the ferrules larger or smaller than a modern 88H. I have compared them with those on my Generation II 88H and they are the same size!

I did find a couple more interesting features.
The rotor casing and the rotor bearing back plate both have 562 with a U below stamped on them.
The knuckles leading into the rotor casing on the Gen II are a smooth, large radius curve but on the mystery trombone they are very sudden, sharp bends, just like the knuckle joint on a finger.
I include this bits of information in case they are at all relevant.

Cheers

Stewbones

The knuckles are a good clue...I'd say early 70s bell with '65 slide.

Chris