Off topic - Am I the only one who dislikes tilted rotor?

[sirisobhakya]

Just curios. I dislike the “tilted rotors”; think about Bach, Getzen, or Edwards style rotors, which tilt off the plane of the bell braces, more obvious in bass where the two rotors tilt in the opposite way to each other. I understand that it might make the airflow smoother, but on aesthetic ground I am happier with Shires, Rath, or Yamaha approach.

I know that it is how the horn plays that matters, but for me, if I want to buy a (new) horn which would cost me a fortune, I would rather choose one that both plays well and looks good (to my eyes).

Am I the only one?

[Burgerbob]

I don't think it's an airflow thing, more of a don't have to build 3D bent offsets thing.

Personally... Who cares? I'd rather a horn play well than have the right look.

My current horn is probably pretty ugly to some, but it plays well and sounds good!

[WGWTR180]

Just curios. I dislike the “tilted rotors”; think about Bach, Getzen, or Edwards style rotors, which tilt off the plane of the bell braces, more obvious in bass where the two rotors tilt in the opposite way to each other. I understand that it might make the airflow smoother, but on aesthetic ground I am happier with Shires, Rath, or Yamaha approach.

I know that it is how the horn plays that matters, but for me, if I want to buy a (new) horn which would cost me a fortune, I would rather choose one that both plays well and looks good (to my eyes).

Am I the only one?

You're not the only one. I completely agree.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

The design idea of a tilted rotor doesn’t bother me, but I can understand if you don’t like the appearance. I think every trombone player has preferences on how their instrument(s) appear and many of these preferences have nothing to do with the sound quality. I don’t even want to start listing all of the little things that I prefer to see on a trombone!

There is one very particular thing about tilted rotors that annoys me. About 90% of them are constructed with a crooked gooseneck (look at how the gooseneck aligns with the bell stem) at the factory. The tilted rotors can easily be made with perfectly straight goosenecks, but they just don’t do it. The Bach 36s and 42s have so much variation between them, I wonder if they are done freehand at the factory. Over the past 30 years, I have owned 11 or 12 trombones with tilted rotors in assorted brands. Only 1 (a Benge 190F) has a perfectly aligned gooseneck.

[elmsandr]

Depends. I do not care if both rotors, or single rotors are tilted. That is, if the rotors are in the same plane, but tilted to the main bell brace I think that can look rather clean and slick. Shires Trubores, for example.

I don't much care for the aesthetics of the rotors being at different angles, e.g. the Bach 50B3O or Edwards B502.

Putting them at the same angle, however, presents a lot of challenges to the manufacturing of parts and the assembly of the system. Would you rather have an extra solder joint for another bend, or have a 3D bend instead of a single axis? I would imagine that there was a defined theory to the Edwards horn and some plan to execute it. I can see that some others, like M&W, who I would also assume had a theory in place, chose to put them at the same angle.

If I were in the market today... those M&W horns are beautiful. But I would still play everything first. Most my horns are vintage and look it anyway, I can get over looks real quick.

Cheers,
Andy

[sirisobhakya]

Would you rather have an extra solder joint for another bend, or have a 3D bend instead of a single axis?

If it can be done well by the manufacturer, I have no problem. Shires, Rath, Jupiter (XO), and Yamaha do it, and there seems to be no problem with any of them. So I think although it is more challenging to fabricate and assemble, it is not that big a deal, or at least it does not impact playing that much.

My personal point is: if there are 2 horns, one with non-tilted rotors that plays not quite well, and another one with tilted rotor that plays better, I would still choose the latter since it plays better despite the look. However, if all things are more or less equal, or just different with neither side impressing me that much over the other, I would choose the non-tilted one.

[hyperbolica]

I've always thought it was cool that people building instruments cared enough about geometry and manufacturability to just do what the design requires rather than shoe-horning the design into some false set of visual requirements. It's more efficient to put the wrap out of plane. You must very much like the old Olds Ambassador flat wraps?

[Doug Elliott]

I have heard from multiple repairmen that when they're working on horns they find joints in that area that were never soldered. Has anybody else heard that? I wonder if particular designs lead to forgetting to solder all the joints....

[sirisobhakya]

I've always thought it was cool that people building instruments cared enough about geometry and manufacturability to just do what the design requires rather than shoe-horning the design into some false set of visual requirements. It's more efficient to put the wrap out of plane. You must very much like the old Olds Ambassador flat wraps?

Not the wrap, only the rotor.

[BGuttman]

I've always thought it was cool that people building instruments cared enough about geometry and manufacturability to just do what the design requires rather than shoe-horning the design into some false set of visual requirements. It's more efficient to put the wrap out of plane. You must very much like the old Olds Ambassador flat wraps?

Not the wrap, only the rotor.

Hyperbolica's point is that with a flat wrap all the tubing is in the plane of the bell section and there is no need to tilt the rotor.

Personally, I don't care if the rotors are tilted as long as it doesn't affect how the ergonomics are. There are enough considerations to designing an instrument that an OCD fetish about rotor angle comes pretty low on the list.

[hyperbolica]

Personally, I don't care if the rotors are tilted as long as it doesn't affect how the ergonomics are. There are enough considerations to designing an instrument that an OCD fetish about rotor angle comes pretty low on the list.

And the string linkage becomes a brilliant lo-tech solution to a complex mechanical motion

[ZacharyThornton]

It is the internet... no one is ever the only one.

[tbonesullivan]

I don't see how it matters.I also don't see how an out of plane rotor is less visually appealing. It shows that the designer wanted to have the cleanest look and least amount of bends in the tubing.

Of course, one could say that they were going the "cheap way" by not having some type of S bend or other requirement to compensate for an "in plane" rotor. But on the other hand keeping the rotors in plane with one another is also "the cheap way".

I'm usually too busy looking at the music and or slide to care what direction my rotor is facing.

[Burgerbob]

There is one very particular thing about tilted rotors that annoys me. About 90% of them are constructed with a crooked gooseneck (look at how the gooseneck aligns with the bell stem) at the factory. The tilted rotors can easily be made with perfectly straight goosenecks, but they just don’t do it. The Bach 36s and 42s have so much variation between them, I wonder if they are done freehand at the factory. Over the past 30 years, I have owned 11 or 12 trombones with tilted rotors in assorted brands. Only 1 (a Benge 190F) has a perfectly aligned gooseneck.

Most horns don't have a tuning slide with a wide enough span to have a parallel slide and bell with any clearance. It's as simple as that. I'd much rather have a good playing, well designed tuning slide with an angle at the rotor than one that is wide enough just to have things look better.

[tbonesullivan]

There is one very particular thing about tilted rotors that annoys me. About 90% of them are constructed with a crooked gooseneck (look at how the gooseneck aligns with the bell stem) at the factory. The tilted rotors can easily be made with perfectly straight goosenecks, but they just don’t do it. The Bach 36s and 42s have so much variation between them, I wonder if they are done freehand at the factory. Over the past 30 years, I have owned 11 or 12 trombones with tilted rotors in assorted brands. Only 1 (a Benge 190F) has a perfectly aligned gooseneck.

Wait... are you talking about an improperly installed gooseneck, or a gooseneck that has a bend in it?

Most trombones without valves have a bend in the gooseneck, and it's not at the place where the valve would be. but just after, so putting the bend into the valve won't work.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Burgerbob and tbonesullivan,

I don't think you are getting what I am saying about the angle of the gooseneck. First of all, goosenecks for straight trombones (without F-attachments) are almost always curved. About 80-85% of the goosenecks for single and double rotary valve instruments are absolutely straight. Yes they are conical in bore, but they are straight. The only brands that I know of with bends in the gooseneck on "valved" horns are Kings and a couple of the Getzen models. Thayer valves are a different beast because their goosenecks come in an assortment of curved shapes....let's not even think about Thayer horns in this conversation.

Now put that aside. The straightness or alignment of the gooseneck is NOT the uniformity of the distance from the bell stem (or an imaginary line going up and down the core of the bell stem) to the gooseneck. That distance can go in and out in an assortment of directions. I'm talking about when you have the slide rubber bumper on the floor and your mouthpiece is off to the right side. If you look at the gooseneck straight on and line up the bell stem behind it. Most tilted rotor instruments (usually the open-wrap designs) do not have parallel lines in the gooseneck area. Most have about a 5-10 degree angle going from right to left when viewing from top to bottom.

Very few people look at their instruments to check this alignment. I look at it all of the time because I build custom trombones and I pride myself on having many parallel lines in my instruments. I believe that parallelisms are a sign of detail and quality craftsmanship.

Here is a photo of the view. It is nearly impossible to get a photo in perfect position to check the alignment as well as the naked eye, but this photo is very close. Something in my I-phone camera makes the gooseneck look slightly warped....it is actually dead straight.
https://trombonechat.com/download/file. ... ew&id=5688

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Here is a bell section (I'll keep the brand and model anonymous to protect the innocent) that I will be rebuilding in the next couple of weeks. The top of the gooseneck is about 1/4 inch to the right when compared to the bottom of the gooseneck. In this photo, you can see it best if you compare the angle of the bottom of the tuning slide ferrule with the gooseneck.

Again, the photo does not really show it with great clarity. If you saw it with your naked eye, you would really notice it. This is very common in "tilted" valves. I'm sure some manufacturers will say "when you twist the valve, you need to have that misalignment." Not true.....I have built many horns with offset valves and absolutely straight goosenecks. It's a detail that many manufacturers choose to ignore.

https://trombonechat.com/download/file. ... w&id=5689w how pronounced the misalignment is. If you

[tbonesullivan]

Burgerbob and tbonesullivan,

I don't think you are getting what I am saying about the angle of the gooseneck. First of all, goosenecks for straight trombones (without F-attachments) are almost always curved. About 80-85% of the goosenecks for single and double rotary valve instruments are absolutely straight. Yes they are conical in bore, but they are straight. The only brands that I know of with bends in the gooseneck on "valved" horns are Kings and a couple of the Getzen models. Thayer valves are a different beast because their goosenecks come in an assortment of curved shapes....let's not even think about Thayer horns in this conversation.

Ok, now I understand. I don't think I've even thought to look at something like that. But it's no surprise that anything out of the Bach factory wouldn't be completely aligned. There's a reason Greenhoe was able to make a market out of building Bachs and Conns from factory parts and make them so much better.

Now of course I'm going to have to check my horns to see if they line up right. Not sure if an off axis valve or valve wrap really influences that. It's influenced by design and care when putting the horn together.

Given that the Tuning slide legs of Bach trombones are undersized, they usually assume that things won't be perfectly parallel. I got my valve section parallel, and this caused my tuning slide to move on its own, so one leg had to be expanded a tad.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Hey tbonesullivan,

Don't start measuring things with a caliper/micrometer on any of your factory-made Bachs! It will break your heart.

There is a reason why technicians reassemble horns and they play exponentially better.....the good techs take the time to get all of the measurements and parallelisms correct. Even the more expensive brands like Edwards and Shires have alignment issues. I have rebuilt some Shires slides and bell sections in the last couple of years.....the owners were shocked with how much better the instruments played when things were assembled correctly.