How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?

[Kingfan]

I didn't want to hijack the "Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?" thread, so I'm starting a new thread. I've had a mental block against learning to improvise for over 40 years. Background - I'm a chronologically gifted player, classical background early but played a lot of big band in the last 30 years and lead a band for a few. Good sight reader, good range, decent technique. I'm not looking to be great, just able to play 16 bars in an amateur big band when my turn comes around and not suck. What I have - a cassette and book "Jazz Anyone?" by Willie Thorn, Aeberbold's cd and book "Maiden Voyage", and a Hal Leonard "All Blues". I have a Yam silent mute so can play without making my wife have yet another reason to strangle me in my sleep.

The three resources I mentioned have been collecting dust since I got them 15-20 years ago. I put on my big boy pants today and grabbed the blues set, figuring it would be a good place to start. Yeah, it has songs and chords, but I needed to know what to do with them first. GRRRRR! I have had people tell me "Just play scales in all keys and then listen to what is going on in the music" which to me it like saying "practice using your torque wrench then rebuild your brakes" with no in-between steps. You know the people who can hear a melody and then play it without music? That ain't me.

I'm looking for advice on how to take the first steps in the right direction. Did I pick the wrong Aebersold book, and if so what should I get? Should I try private Skype lessons? There are some people who are tone deaf, are there some who are improvisation deaf? I'm retired so time isn't an issue; I just don't want to spin my wheels and go nowhere, or go in the wrong direction. Ok, let the opinions begin!

[Doug Elliott]

I totally remember the time (in high school) when I had no idea how to start, or what to play, and whenever I tried, all of my technique went out the window. I got started by doing a lot of transcribing and copying. At the time that was mostly Urbie Green and Bob Brookmeyer.

At this point I suggest hitting it from as many different angles as possible.
Read Zac Lee's post in that other thread, it's all important stuff.
Listen, Transcribe.
Play by ear, every day. Get to know your way around the horn so you can play anything in any key without reading and without getting lost. That means tunes, etudes, scales, arpeggios, and maybe some patterns. You can't feel comfortable improvising unless you completely know your horn.

There's lots more but in my opinion that's where you need to start.

[Bach5G]

I feel as if I’m in the same boat as you Kingfan. I found this short YouTube video from Shawn Bell a helpful place to start.



Here’s another:



With all due respect to Zac and Doug, you don’t need to know it all in order to get started. If you did, nearly no one would be able to improvise. What is odd is that it should be easier than ever. You can listen to anyone simply by asking Alexa. For example, I just asked my Alexa to play Vic Dickinson and there he is. There are apps that slow music down so you can transcribe the solos. I bought 5 Curtis Fuller CDs for $20 with free delivery. Apps like IReal Pro will play the changes to almost any tune (in any key, at any tempo) as well as basic exercises (simple blues, V chords, ii-V-I progressions, all keys all tempos). All sorts of pros are on line teaching over zoom. There is an avalanche of instructional material out there. What is lacking, maybe, is the chance to jam with other musicians but you know other musicians and there are probably classes in night schools and community colleges.

[Doug Elliott]

Of course you don't need to "know it all" to get started... But it's a big part of getting started. You DO need to be able to play by ear - that's what improvising is all about. It almost doesn't matter how good or bad you are at it, doing it more makes you better and more comfortable at it.

I would argue that part of the problem is the vast amount of material available. "More stuff to work on" doesn't make you better. Concentrating on a small amount of good material is what makes you learn it.

Learn ONE phrase or a whole song by ear with no mistakes.
Transcribe ONE solo you like and learn it well.

When I'm transcribing, I don't keep track but it wouldn't surprise me if I listen to it 100 times in the course of learning it.

[Savio]

I'm definitely not an expert here, but I also think it has a lot to do with being brave enough to just trying. I teach a lot of kids and they seem to be more brave than me.

[harrisonreed]

I'm definitely not an expert here, but I also think it has a lot to do with being brave enough to just trying. I teach a lot of kids and they seem to be more brave than me.

Yep...

I am terrible at improvising. But I feel braver if I had written out the solo I wanted to play beforehand and memorized it. Then if I forget a little of what I memorized, I can "improvise" within that box I learned.

[baileyman]

Try playing with recordings of singers. It's really great to learn the melody along with them. Then after that works, start making up things to fit in the "holes". Those are the pauses between phrases. You may hear a song or two with this kind of singer/horn duet as it's pretty common.

[Wilktone]

I'm a big fan of Hal Crook's books "How To Improvise: An Approach To Practicing Improvisation" and "Ready, Aim, Improvise." He points out that a lot of improvisers spend all their time with the "ready, fire, aim" approach. It's a good way to practice using your ear and intuition that way, but progress is slower because you don't set targeted goals.

In a nutshell, his suggestions for learning to improvise involve focusing on a single topic and spending your practice time only on improvement in that area. In his books he breaks down improvisation into three basic areas - when to play (use of silence, phrase lengths, syncopation, etc.) what to play (scales, chord tones, non-harmonic tones, etc.), and how to play (soft, loud, high, low, staccato, legato, etc.). In each of those areas he provides examples of specific topics and offers exercises to practice improvisation in ways that will help you improve and internalize how to use that topic to generate expression in your improvisations. He makes a compelling argument that restricting your improvisations within these exercises (e.g., play for 4 bars, rest for 4 bars/play for 3 bars, rest for 2 bars) leads to the freedom to apply those musical devises when soloing (e.g., using silence to great effect as Count Basie or Miles Davis might).

Those books might not be currently in print, but if you can find them they are well worth finding and buying them.

I can offer some additional details about how I've used this approach in my own practicing and teaching, if you're interested.

Dave

[ArbanRubank]

I'm definitely not an expert here, but I also think it has a lot to do with being brave enough to just trying. I teach a lot of kids and they seem to be more brave than me.

Yep...

I am terrible at improvising. But I feel braver if I had written out the solo I wanted to play beforehand and memorized it. Then if I forget a little of what I memorized, I can "improvise" within that box I learned.

Hah! I once had a beautiful high solo all worked out for myself. But by the time we got to that number - near the very end of our performance - I was so gassed that I had to come up with something else on the fly. Be careful what you work out for yourself in advance! Make sure it's playable under all conditions. If it's too high, you might fail and if it's too low, the background ruckus might drown you out. I hate it when someone steps up for a solo and the other band members are still blowing their lungs out through their horns. But yeah, that's a great plan - in concept.

Like anything else, it seems some of us were born able to improvise. But that doesn't mean the rest of us can't learn, through methods such as noted directly above.

[Elow]

Something that my teacher started me on is limiting yourself to only a couple notes and not too complex rhythms. Forcing yourself into a box and just getting comfortable improvising easy stuff really helped me. I’m no elliott mason, and probably won’t ever be, but i think i’m still better than the average joe. Starting was the hardest part for me

[hyperbolica]

I'm a learner here, too, but as others have mentioned, confidence is a great first step. Plus, you have to allow yourself to suck. You're not going to be Watrous your first ride.

I've started by screwing around at the end of a song - you know, that noodling that folks do after the last note. This is usually short, and you can experiment with landing on 2 or 6 or 7 - something other than 1,3,5.

Next I play Christmas tunes and screw with the melody.

Somebody posted a great link in the other thread about walking a bass line, going 1,2,3,4 for each chord change, and learning blues scales. It was stuff that's simple enough to do and build confidence.

Don't take this the wrong way, but Zaclee's post was kind of discouraging to me. That level of commitment is what I'm afraid of. If that's what it takes, I'm going to give up yesterday. But i can learn to play 1,2,3 in I, IV, V progression.

So I'm not there, for sure, but I've started. If you've got Band In A Box or iReal Pro that's a fun way to practice without embarrassing your self too much. To get started, you have to be willing to suck a little at first.

[PhilTrombone]

Re transcribing, and listening. Yes, yes and yes again. This is how all the old greats learned! Sneaking into clubs and just soaking it in.

Re developing your ears:

Many years ago, I was in a jazz workshop led by Grachan Moncur. We had 4 students. He had us play "Giant Steps" again and again, in various configurations. One person played the bass notes, another the thirds, another the melody, and so on. And then we would switch roles. After a while, one began to really hear the changes, and be able to do some soloing.
Thank you Grachan, if you are on this group!!!

Using a tool like ireal (fantastic tool) one could do the something similar with any tune, finding the notes. Play the bass notes of the tune. Walk your own bass line, etc. A great first step to really hearing the changes.

I also studied jazz guitar, and my teachers' mantra was "find the line". Meaning as one examines the chord changes, find a smooth line of notes to play. And he was always talking about developing your "horn sense". This contrasts with most of the jazz and rock guitar teaching I see online which is not about hearing changes and melody, but about spitting out rote patterns.

Putting in some time on a piano will also help you hear and visualize changes.

Now that I've said all this, I too wish I was a better jazz soloist!!!!!
Do as I say, not as I do!

[ithinknot]

Of course you don't need to "know it all" to get started... But it's a big part of getting started. You DO need to be able to play by ear - that's what improvising is all about. It almost doesn't matter how good or bad you are at it, doing it more makes you better and more comfortable at it.

^This.

You know the people who can hear a melody and then play it without music? That ain't me.

Can you hear a melody and then sing it (notwithstanding singing quality)? If yes, then the scales/arpeggios/etc in all keys is what will help you bridge the brain-horn divide. If no, then you need to work on ear training above all else.

The other important thing is to realise how much you already know without realising it, and how to convert familiarity into practical knowledge.

Starting with a lead sheet, you're already not completely tied to the score. You know when to swing, to accent certain syncopations, and so on. Then see what else you can do to characterize the melody without changing pitches. Then gradually move away through addition and subtraction. At this point, theory knowledge provides a much more efficient means of avoiding (the harmonic implications of) the least successful melodic changes, but trial and error is still an option.

You can tell the difference between Frank Sinatra and Dean Martin in about half a second, right? And the same with your favorite instrumentalists. But how many of the differences can you put into words, or replicate on an instrument? Stylistic awareness as a listener doesn't automatically turn into replication ability as a player, but it's the starting point. You have to listen curiously and analytically to make that conversion. Depending on your aural skills and predispositions in learning methods - visual or otherwise, transcription may be an important part of this process.

Some of these things will be instrumental/technical (the combinations of air shape/jaw vib/lip bends up/slide falls that Carl Fontana uses to make terminal notes disappear in a puff of smoke), some musical/theoretical (JJ's descending 4ths or repeated 3rds). Most will be a mixture, or depend on context. You could approximate Si Zentner's slide vibrato - but is that what immediately distinguishes him from Buddy Morrow, or Tommy Dorsey in an earthquake? No, to me it's the particular approach to playing behind the beat, grabbing key melody notes and rushing subsidiary ones, that marks out his distinctively overwrought delivery. But you probably already knew that, even if you didn't realise it

[ExZacLee]

Can't play what you hear? Why? How much have you worked on that?

I mentioned in the post on the other thread the need to learn melodies you know on your horn.

How much of that have you done? Did you learn any this morning?

I'm in my PJs at 4am (because that's the only time i have to practice with a baby) picking out a Bennie Goodman lick on a piano from his solo break on Mary Lou Williams' "Lonely Moments" because it's embedded in my brain pan and I can't sleep with a clarinet solo on repeat. Later on today when I have some free time before a big band rehearsal, I'll transfer it to the horn and take it through a 3 or 4 keys. No one is telling you to do this - but seriously - if you can't commit to an hour of practice a day, how do you expect to learn it? Or anything for that matter? There aren't any "special secrets" we're not telling you. The "short cut" is transcribing a butt ton of solos and memorizing them. Trust me when I tell you that working on developing the connection between your ears and your horn is the short cut.

The growth in knowledge tends to get exponential once you pass a certain point. You just need to get past the basics. When i started seriously practicing, it was one song at a time. When the pattern recognition set in, one song could teach me a thousand... and then it's just building on top of what you already know.

If anyone is seriously intimidated by this skill (and not just fishing for an easier way - there isn't one) we can schedule a zoom meet to talk about it.

This is hardly "knowing it all" - it's literally step one. It's also step 1,276,378. And it's the most important.

[Doug Elliott]

LOTS of great information here.

Speaking of Frank Sinatra... LISTEN to what he does with melodies ... especially rhythmically. Listen, don't just hear.

When you're learning improvising, don't try to be Watrous or Fontana, try to be Sinatra. Make melodies that fit, the simpler the better.

[Kingfan]

LOTS of great information here.

Speaking of Frank Sinatra... LISTEN to what he does with melodies ... especially rhythmically. Listen, don't just hear.

When you're learning improvising, don't try to be Watrous or Fontana, try to be Sinatra. Make melodies that fit, the simpler the better.

I agree with the Sinatra comment - I don't solos whose main purpose is to play as many notes as fast as possible. That said, yeah, lots of good ideas in general, but I am STILL looking for a specific place to start. I know by now how I learn - give me a manual, a lesson book, etc. That is why I was asking about the Aebersold stuff. One thought I had was start with the blues, which no nobody has mentioned as an option.

I am regretting starting this thread.

[Doug Elliott]

Don't regret starting it - we absolutely need this kind of thread.

As with advice on chops, I will say I'd need to see what you are doing now to give valid advice on where to go from here. I'm not set up to do jazz lessons but I can probably give you some advice over Skype if you want. Lots of people are teaching online now.

[Kingfan]

Don't regret starting it - we absolutely need this kind of thread.

As with advice on chops, I will say I'd need to see what you are doing now to give valid advice on where to go from here. I'm not set up to do jazz lessons but I can probably give you some advice over Skype if you want. Lots of people are teaching online now.

I'm doing nothing now, yesterday was my first try. I'm regretting starting this for the simple reason that since I never tried in the 53 years I've been playing trombone so I haven't failed at it. Trying and not getting it is failure. I feel like forgetting the whole thing and sticking to what I do well on trombone. Yeah, I need a good shrink...

[hyperbolica]

I am regretting starting this thread.

Don't be. I think you and I are in the same boat. People on one end of the spectrum don't necessarily get what it means to be on the other end of the spectrum.

Kingfan, really, check this out. Someone else posted a link to this earlier, there are two videos:



This gives you something simple you can work on, based on stuff you probably already know. It's an achievable starting point. For me, starting with a walking bass line was a great place to start, then arpeggios, then patterns related to those. Walk before you run, don't jump in the deep end first. Do something with realistic expectations and build your confidence. The guy in the video recommends all of that in parallel with blues scales. Totally doable for square cats like you and me.

[Doug Elliott]

People on one end of the spectrum don't necessarily get what it means to be on the other end of the spectrum.

That's why I mentioned earlier that I totally get it, because I started as a classical player and very much remember having no idea what to play. Like I said, I'm not set up for teaching jazz but I'd be happy to spend a few minutes on Skype to help you get started.

[BGuttman]

I was in a Dixieland band and needed to be able to take a solo (our standard run was 5 times through the song: tutti, Cornet, Clarinet, Trombone, Tutti). I couldn't not take a lick. So I played with the melody. A little figure here or there within the tune. As I got better at it, I could digress a bit more from the tune. I'm never going to sound like Trombone Shorty, so I don't even try. Being able to do some of the simpler solos by the likes of Tom Brown, Kid Ory, etc. were fine with me. I like to solo in Big Band on nice ballads that don't take to a lot of "jazzing". They handed me IGSOY and told me I "owned" it. The easier arrangement in Bb (doesn't go quite as high). I leave the stream of notes solos to the saxophones, who seem to prefer that.

[hyperbolica]

People on one end of the spectrum don't necessarily get what it means to be on the other end of the spectrum.

That's why I mentioned earlier that I totally get it, because I started as a classical player and very much remember having no idea what to play.

Yeah, Doug, but with all due respect, you said you struggled in high school. We're old enough to have been that kid's grandparents. When you have a history of being afraid of it, especially classically trained people who already have an ingrained fear of imperfection, just getting started gets harder and harder with time. I think before we can do anything remotely musical or jazzy, we have to erode decades of fear first. Not to be too dramatic, but you guys, I think, don't get that part. You'd have to forget 40 years of success to be able to relate to the fear connected with this for some people.

[Bach5G]

If I was struggling to get a basic handle on improvising on trombone ( and I am only a small step or two away from that status), I’d download iReal Pro, fire up Blues - Simple in F at a moderate tempo for 30 (the maximum) choruses, and have at it. Repeat as needed.

Maybe down the road I’d learn all my chords, all my scales, transcribe my favourite solos, etc. But that’s not where I’d start.

[BGuttman]

If I was struggling to get a basic handle on improvising on trombone ( and I am only a small step or two away from that status), I’d download iReal Pro, fire up Blues - Simple in F at a moderate temp for 30 (the maximum) choruses, and have at it. Repeat as needed.

Maybe down the road I’d learn all my chords, all my scales, transcribe my favourite solos, etc. But that’s not where I’d start.

This is almost the opposite of what I did. I started with a tune to play. "Jazzing up" a tune is easier than trying to figure out what to play to a chord progression. Working from a tune lets you have some focus on what to add. Is it a sad tune? a happy tune? put in some stuff that enhances the sad or happy vibe.

[Kingfan]

That's why I mentioned earlier that I totally get it, because I started as a classical player and very much remember having no idea what to play.

Yeah, Doug, but with all due respect, you said you struggled in high school. We're old enough to have been that kid's grandparents. When you have a history of being afraid of it, especially classically trained people who already have an ingrained fear of imperfection, just getting started gets harder and harder with time. I think before we can do anything remotely musical or jazzy, we have to erode decades of fear first. Not to be too dramatic, but you guys, I think, don't get that part. You'd have to forget 40 years of success to be able to relate to the fear connected with this for some people.

You nailed my thoughts exactly!

[Bach5G]

This is almost the opposite of what I did. I started with a tune to play. "Jazzing up" a tune is easier than trying to figure out what to play to a chord progression. Working from a tune lets you have some focus on what to add. Is it a sad tune? a happy tune? put in some stuff that enhances the sad or happy vibe.

Start with C Jam Blues. In F.

[ArbanRubank]

I believe there are certain "techniques" to avoid when learning jazz: smears and scoops. Hardly anyone knows how to do them properly, outside of a Dixieland setting. I see Facebook and YouTube vids of guys "jazzing up" a pop song using those. They just sound awful - like a drunk playing the trombone.

[hyperbolica]

I had a story, but apparently it wasn't shocking enough.

Just to say that getting started is at least partially psychological. Don't take any wooden nickles.

[ArbanRubank]

Very colorful story! I have a similar fail. I've played in small groups and have done improv solos ala the Harrison Technique of working it out ahead of time and I did fine. Then I asked to sit in with a smallish combo. I again did okay for the first couple songs, being familiar enough with the tunes to fake my way through a minimum number of bars. Then they started calling out songs I never heard of before. So I turned to the guy on my left and asked him what key. He didn't know. I asked the guy on my right. He didn't know. I packed my horn up and exited. I didn't ask to sit in to embarrass myself or the group. A man has to know his limitations.

[ithinknot]

So I turned to the guy on my left and asked him what key. He didn't know. I asked the guy on my right. He didn't know.

... what were they about to play, then?

[Doug Elliott]

Do you really think your situation is that much different from the people with chop problems that I help? The ones with actual orchestra gigs who are afraid to pick up their horn because they don't know what will come out?
If you actually want to get better you need to face it. I'm not hiring you for a gig - you don't have to look good for me, I just want to help you get better.

[harrisonreed]

Let me tell a little story on myself. I've never admitted this to anyone out loud. I lived near a very nice city for music, and I had a lot of contacts. I had a different day job, but I played a lot of great gigs, including recordings and under internationally renown trombonists. Then I got this job playing in a big house with a fancy stage band. Just before intermission, I was fumbling through my music trying to get things in order when I heard my name called out over the speakers. It was the conductor and he was gesturing toward me. I thought "Oh, $#!+, he wants me to play a solo", so I cut loose with the most godawful stream of goat poking you've ever heard. After which I immediately packed up my horn, apologized to the guy who recommended me, and left.

What you didn't know is that the gig was actually a lot more low brow then you thought, and they were just trying to tell you that your car lights were still on during the performance, or that you ticket has been pulled at the potluck...

Sorry that's a bad joke, making light of a realistic and bad situation. I think I'd have a really hard time coming to grips with a situation going down like that if I had that happen to me. It's too bad you had to hang it up, but did you get out of that slump?

[harrisonreed]

As for the fear, I think you need to find people who are better than you who want to work with you, and perform with you warts and all. Those people are the real saviors, and they helped me exorcise some demons. Again, I'm terrible at improvising. But I'm not terrified of playing a solo in front of a crowd, and the real fear, the fear of sucking pond water in front of people who I respect or admire, is gone -- they already know I suck and don't care. They just create an opportunity for me to not suck in front of an audience.

I don't think it's something you can learn in a practice room, even with iRealB. You learn it trying to make music with people who are way better than you AND who care.

[Doug Elliott]

A performance, even just with friends, is not the place to LEARN how to play. It's where you try out what you've worked out and practiced and learned on your own time, in a practice room, with or without current technology.

[imsevimse]

I'll try to help with how I started. I was about 16 years old in a 8 parts orchestra. Trumpet, trombone, three saxes, piano, bass and drums. The solos were often eight bars or a 12 bar blues, sometimes with a repeat. Occasionally it was 16 bars and then I struggled more. I had never done a solo. I looked at the chords and decided the first phrase. This was the only thing I decided back then. If the first chord was a F-major I might think of a phrase that made use of a F triad or a F6 chord. I imagined something syncopated before the tune even started. This was as if I had the first phrase printed on paper "inside my head".It was different things each time because I did not want to repeat myself in front of my colleagues. After that it took off, I just played by ear. As I developed I learned the blues scale. I made sure to know the G, C, F ,Bb and Eb blues scales since these were the most common keys. Then I learned all pentatonic scales and played them in patterns. Of course as beeing taught the trombone I already knew the minor and major scales in every key by ear For a long time when a solo came up I did as I always did. I planned the first phrase ahead and after that I just played by ear. Then I bought most of the Aebersold and played everyone, over and over again. Later I begun to learn Swedish folksongs by ear and played them in every key. I still do this. It helps a lot to know the instrument. Now when a solo comes up I do not think at all, I just play what ever comes up and people seams to take no offense. I remember nothing after a solo, I'm totally blank. I have to listen to a recording to know. I'm no master at this, but I have no problems to take a solo. I think I'm about average on the pro scene over here. You can hear what this all led to if you click on my profile. There is a video here where I play my Superbone. It is not the best I can do not the worst. It is an average solo made in one take for 7 minutes. If you listen you can decide if the route was successful enough.

Good luck!

/Tom

[Savio]

A performance, even just with friends, is not the place to LEARN how to play. It's where you try out what you've worked out and practiced and learned on your own time, in a practice room, with or without current technology.

I understand what you think, but I disagree. A performance can teach you to be a musician. The practice room can learn you the trombone.

Leif

[Doug Elliott]

What I'm saying is, don't make everybody else listen to you practice.

[harrisonreed]

A performance, even just with friends, is not the place to LEARN how to play. It's where you try out what you've worked out and practiced and learned on your own time, in a practice room, with or without current technology.

I might have worded that wrong. Definitely don't LEARN during a live performance. I've met great people who have given me multiple shots to smooth out what I've worked on during a rehearsal though, then we perform like how we rehearsed. I don't think you can get past the fear of making a fool of yourself in front of your peers or your betters alone in the practice room.

That's what I was talking about.

[AndrewMeronek]

From a post relevant here by Bruce Forman that he put on Facebook:

First of all, let me state unequivocally that one must emulate and learn from the masters and incorporate their contribution mixed with your aesthetic. And if you think I haven’t borrowed some and stole more, I suggest you check out my playing again! (When the following makes you mad, read this again!) So, why am I writing this? Because I have a problem with the ritualistic nature of transcribing today.

The word ‘transcribe’ generally means to write down…and of all the things to learn, that is the least important part of the process. Words (like notes and rhythms) matter…content, context, nuance, intent, shading, contrast are elements learned in this process and are all far more important than writing down for a test or to prove to your peers you did your homework. Learning from others is practice, not playing, and I personally never felt the need to get a ribbon or enjoy elevated status for just doing my homework.

Here are three essential elements from the transcribing thing:

Whole solos: This seems to be the rage today…and let me tell you how great it is. But, to gather the notes and rhythms and then play along as a sideshow presentation…sorry! If you haven’t listened so many times (100 or so) that you can sing it, and then again as many times playing along with it…then sorry, you’re just participating, not comprehending it on that deep level that makes it a part of your own language. Also, you need to know the tune in the first place…before you do this!

Pieces: This is also an important part, finding a phrase that goes over a specific chord or cadence, and really doing the engineering work to figure out everything about it. This is another essential aspect of transcribing (man, I hate that word, can we find something else?) Take the phrase and play it in songs that have that harmonic situation, play into it and out of it, change direction, add notes, reduce it to important notes, find a hidden substitute chord inside and use that, start on different beats, resolve to different qualities of the chord…this matures this vital information into a concept that is usable in myriad situations and is the genesis of your personal style…because it demands imagination and commitment to the creative process on your part!

Channeling: This might seem a bit strange to some, but what I am dealing with here are some important bandstand creativity aspects that the traditional transcribing game can’t give you. Take a player you like, listen a few times to a tune you like, try to absorb the defining qualities and then channel that into your playing (preferably a different song). This will call on you paying attention to big picture things like phrasing, density, consonance vs dissonance, rhythmic approach, dynamics, shading of the time…and then you will have to take your existing vocabulary and make it work to achieve a goal…

I came up in a time where it wasn’t cool to play other people’s ideas or solos (even though we would all sing along with solos on breaks when they were played on the jukebox). While I am ambivalent about all of that, there was a certain sense of ‘do your own thing’ that embraces the ethos and spirit of this music. I was publicly chastised once for playing someone’s solo, and I believe the point was to teach me, not to shame me. “Play in public and practice in private!”

If anyone isn't familiar with Bruce's playing, I recommend you check him out. He's fantastic, and a fantastic educator. And his Cow Bop stuff is great fun.

[afugate]

I'll give you a simple place to start.

Others have mentioned the connection between ears and horn. Personal opinion - trombone players seem to have the worst ears of any section. Perhaps we spend so much time working on technique and mastering the horn that we fail to really train our ears to listen and then connect that to the horn. (I dunno - perhaps there are people smarter than me who have more informed opinions on this than mine as a rank amateur. )

That place to start? For me it was the extended cable channels where all they play is music. I picked a station with music I liked and recognized and started trying to play along. I was terrible. But I kept trying and soon I was able to start repeating back what I heard - just a few notes, but it was a start.

Last week, I had my horn out and was attempting to play along and parrot various renditions of a jazz standard. I'm proud to say I was pretty successful, at least with the simpler stuff. Equally as important in my mind, I found myself being able to sing other stuff that fit. I can't play what I sing - yet. But that's at least as much my own person technique challenges as it is the reality of limited quality practice time.

Play along with stuff you know. Connect that to your horn.

--Andy in OKC

[Doug Elliott]

EXACTLY. Thanks Andy.

[Bach5G]

Who do you listen to?

3 suggestions of bop non-trombone players for trombone players to listen to:

1. Gerry Mulligan (and other bari players). Making a bari swing is no small feat. Throw Chet Baker in here too. (Yes, I know: he played trumpet. Sang too).

2. Paul Desmond. Maybe the antithesis of the Parker alto style.

3. Wes Montgomery. Wes’ right hand technique did not lend itself to a flurry of notes. Wes’ phrasing and note selection is absolutely top drawer.

[Bonearzt]

I've mentioned before that I don't try to improv solos because I feel I don't have anything to "say" through my horn.

[BurckhardtS]

Andy, I don't think it could have been explained better.

[ExZacLee]

I've mentioned before that I don't try to improv solos because I feel I don't have anything to "say" through my horn.

That's fine too! Nobody has to play a solo. I like to do Monk's "Crepuscule with Nellie" because it doesn't have a solo section in it - it's perfect the way it is. It's one of my favorite songs to close with, or use as a ballad on a concert.

And there's nothing I hate worse than blowing a solo where one isn't needed. A colleague added a chorus of solo to an arrangement I did of Cherokee once. I wasn't happy with it and said as much. He was the bandleader and I ended up having to play the extra, unnecessary chorus. I'm still kind of mad about that.

Play along with stuff you know. Connect that to your horn.

--Andy in OKC

I keep saying that. And i keep hearing how hard it is to do.

Doug mentioned playing along with Sinatra. Heck yeah. I'd also add Ella, Johnny Hartman and Sarah Vaughan to that - all music, no fluff. And Bing - Bing's no nonsense approach to stating a melody is an education.

You like the blues? Play along with that. I used to play along with Albert King and Howlin' wolf albums. And Kid Ory - that was my introduction to the blues.

The main thing is we're talking about getting started. Play along with something. Anything. Anything you are familiar with.

First day I had my horn I was trying to pick out the MacGyver theme. Right now it's Hamilton: The Musical. My warmup on days i have time for one is still playing through hymns and folk melodies - has been forever. Amazing Grace, It Is Well With My Soul, Rock of Ages... whatever melody is rolling around in my head.

If you want to learn how to improvise, what are you doing right now to get better at it? What do you like? What are you listening to?

We definitely need more threads like this. There is huge misunderstanding regarding this topic, usually perpetuated by people who haven't really studied this topic.

[afugate]

The main thing is we're talking about getting started. Play along with something. Anything. Anything you are familiar with.

First day I had my horn I was trying to pick out the MacGyver theme. Right now it's Hamilton: The Musical. My warmup on days i have time for one is still playing through hymns and folk melodies - has been forever. Amazing Grace, It Is Well With My Soul, Rock of Ages... whatever melody is rolling around in my head.

The very first thing our daughter wanted to learn when she picked up trombone was the melody to All of Me. (She learned it first in B flat.)

If you want to learn how to improvise, what are you doing right now to get better at it? What do you like? What are you listening to?

One thing about playing along and transcribing. It's all about listening with intent.

These days, when I'm working on arranging (I'm still very much a novice), I spend a great deal of time listening to tunes by the arranger(s) I'm trying to emulate. What is the sax section doing when they are playing behind the brass? Are they in unison? What's the drummer doing to setup and play off the band in the shout chorus? How thick are the brass hits? What are the bass bone and the bari doing under the band?

All of that listening is showing up in my soloing.

--Andy in OKC

[BurckhardtS]

Yeah, Doug, but with all due respect, you said you struggled in high school. We're old enough to have been that kid's grandparents. When you have a history of being afraid of it, especially classically trained people who already have an ingrained fear of imperfection, just getting started gets harder and harder with time. I think before we can do anything remotely musical or jazzy, we have to erode decades of fear first. Not to be too dramatic, but you guys, I think, don't get that part. You'd have to forget 40 years of success to be able to relate to the fear connected with this for some people.

I just saw this, and I understand and partially agree with this, but part of 'eroding fear' is accepting the fact that you have that fear, and doing it anyway. I don't think it has anything to do with age, neither does it have anything to do with written music vs improvised music. Personally speaking, I have tons of fears of performing in front of others, some of it stemming from actual past traumas, even with classical music which I spent most of my college time studying. I didn't start getting better at performing until I actually just let myself be fearful, and did it anyway.

It doesn't happen overnight either, mental skills just like any skill you learn takes time and repetition.

I'm pretty passionate about this because those skills are a problem in not only my playing but in my everyday life and I had to figure that out myself.

[Bach5G]

I worry about looking foolish and incompetent. But if I let that get in the way, I wouldn’t have got a lesson from R Sauer, or D Elliott, or attended an Alessi seminar, or a K Eubanks (not Robin) masterclass. Or attended Centrum jazz camp. Or, for that matter go for run (I once finished dead last in a 10 K run. Not even a race, just a run. Absolutely dead last.)

I try to do my homework. I don’t want to waste anybody’s time. But one can’t be bound by unrealistic expectations or by what you think others might think.

And sometimes, you might get it wrong too. So you pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and start all over again.

I’ve also found a little bit of Ativan helps from time to time.

[hyperbolica]

.... but did you get out of that slump?

Well, yeah, I'm back playing. I restarted about 7-8 years ago. My need to learn to improvise is completely self-imposed. It's not hampering my career, it's not preventing me from playing with groups I want to play with. It's just a personal goal that I would like to develop at some point.

I know Doug and Zac really think they're helping, but right now, you're mostly contributing to the problem. I can see why Kingfan was kind of wishing he hadn't started this. I think I have to start further back than you guys are imagining. Not with the horn mechanics, but with non-trombone or even non-music related stuff. Confidence. Fear. Willingness to be imperfect, etc. And maybe it is comparable in some way to chop problems, but the comparison isn't helping.

Anyway, I'll get past all that eventually. I've got some friends here who are sympathetic and they're as competent as I aspire to be. One of them even learned to improv in his 50s, so I can see there's hope for me. Their advice overlaps to some extent: learn tunes and play by ear in different keys. Walking bass and blues scales are other advice I think I can follow. Once I can make this work for myself, the big hurdle will be to try some simple stuff with one of my groups. Then I can start with the next level - listening to real pros and delving into more analytical methods to break out beyond the simplistic stuff it's going to take to get me past the non-musical hurdles. Trying to jump straight to emulating pros just gives me another unattainable goal - another excuse for not trying.

Baby steps, I'll eventually get to Giant Steps, right?

[Doug Elliott]

I know you think I don't get it, but I really do. I have some great simple ways to get started, if you're interested.