Straight trombones

Chatname · Post by **Chatname** » Fri Oct 29, 2021 3:14 am

Big fan of straight large/medium bore horns. Aesthetically, historically and for how they play. They seem to be on the way to be extinct, however. Everyone wants a valve these days.
The first trombone I bought was a straight 36, I was 14 at the time. Will never forget opening the case for the first time, the excitement and awe, the smell of a new trombone.
A few years later, my first straight 42.
For those out there with similar sentiments : favorite straight horns?
Which straight trombones, if any, do you consider equal or better compared to valved ones?

elmsandr · Post by **elmsandr** » Fri Oct 29, 2021 4:58 am

One of my favorite horns to play is a straight Bach 45 that I have. A really fun blow; small tight bass sound. However, without the valve it is also the most useless horn that I have. One of these days, I want to get a handslide to make it stand in low Eb, I think that will make it a very interesting horn to have around, but probably still not the most useful.

I do love playing on my straight 42 when I can; but when I'm bringing that out, I'm usually in a pit or playing a collection of 2nd-bass parts... something almost always needs the valve (or is a ton easier with it).

Cheers,
Andy

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Fri Oct 29, 2021 5:17 am

Chatname wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 3:14 am Which straight trombones, if any, do you consider equal or better compared to valved ones?

Maybe a straight Bach 42, if comparing it to a normal 42 with the undersized valve. But... Why do I want a "better" version of a trombone that is still miles away from what I look for in a trombone? A better playing but less useful version of my most unfun trombone....

For small bore, I don't really notice the difference! A straight 3B plays pretty much the same as a 3BF. I love them both.

Post by **Matt K** » Fri Oct 29, 2021 5:32 am

Pretty much 100% agreement myself. Bach style large bores work really well w/o a valve. And I too much prefer rotary small bores, especially my 3BF. And before that 3BF, the Yamaha 356 I was on.

hyperbolica · Post by **hyperbolica** » Fri Oct 29, 2021 5:44 am

I just bought a 1958 8h from Doug Bert. 8h is a definite favorite. In a different life I had a Holton tr156, and that thing could command a big orchestra like nobody's business. For a short time I had a MV 36 straight which was a joy to play. I just like the simplicity of a straight horn.

Sometimes, though, when someone else shows up with a straight horn, I have come to think of them as a bit of a diva, because they are saying that they won't play any low parts. Sometimes I feel guilty for showing up without a trigger.

Chatname · Post by **Chatname** » Fri Oct 29, 2021 5:54 am

Sh*t, maybe I’m a diva then!! Never considered this…

andym · Post by **andym** » Fri Oct 29, 2021 5:57 am

I have a custom convertible 36 that I just love without the valve. Sound just leaps out of it. I also have a Shires small bore with a 0.500-0.508 slide that makes me very happy. Valves are useful but the simplicity of the straight horn is something special.

Different than previous posters, I have a Shires large bore tenor and it plays just as well with the standard rotor in as with the straight neck pipe. So, I never take the valve off. I don’t have experience with a small bore with a valve.

Post by **BGuttman** » Fri Oct 29, 2021 5:59 am

Chatname wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 5:54 am Sh*t, maybe I’m a diva then!! Never considered this…

Nah. When I need to play low notes I just falset tone them.

I like triggers, but I accept that sometimes a straight horn works well, too. You really don't need a trigger if your part only occasionally dips into the bass staff (like the one I'm playing in my avatar).

Chatname · Post by **Chatname** » Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:18 am

[quote=elmsandr post_id=161168 time=1635505118 user_id=147]
One of my favorite horns to play is a straight Bach 45 that I have. A really fun blow; small tight bass sound.

A straight 45! Didn’t know it existed!! That’s so cool!!

ChadA · Post by **ChadA** » Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:31 am

I really like my Elkhart 8H bell with a 2547 slide.

Chatname · Post by **Chatname** » Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:34 am

Gold brass slide?

ChadA · Post by **ChadA** » Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:39 am

Chatname wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:34 am Gold brass slide?

I think the 2547 dual bore slides have yellow brass outers. It's hard to tell with the 90s UMI gold-tinged lacquer on there. But it definitely looks more yellow than the bell.

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:00 am

Maybe that's what I could never put my finger on about people with the straight horns!

"I'm purposefully limiting myself because I'm a diva"

That's it!!

Chatname · Post by **Chatname** » Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:04 am

I always thought there was something very humble about a straight horn. I got it all wrong, I now understand!

hyperbolica · Post by **hyperbolica** » Fri Oct 29, 2021 9:14 am

You never know what part of what you say other people are going to pick up on. But I know why everybody brings straight horns to rehearsals - everybody wants to play first parts!

No one wants to get stuck on third, except maybe those exceedingly humble and accommodating people who bring horns with two valves...

Seriously, though, I bring a straight horn every time I think I can get away with it. My preference is a medium bore straight, but I'll bring the smallest horn that I think I can make work in any situation.

Chatname · Post by **Chatname** » Fri Oct 29, 2021 9:34 am

That tr156 sounds very exciting!
Your phrase “ that thing could command a big orchestra like nobody's business” made me laugh out loud but also made me want one!!

hyperbolica · Post by **hyperbolica** » Fri Oct 29, 2021 9:47 am

Chatname wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 9:34 am That tr156 sounds very exciting!
Your phrase “ that thing could command a big orchestra like nobody's business” made me laugh out loud but also made me want one!!

I played that horn when I was in the Virginia Beach Symphony. We had a lot of strong military musicians and played a lot of big music in a big hall. You could put a lot of sound out of that thing without making it sound overblown or forced. It was the Friedman model, I think. Dual bore, 547/562 no valve with a 9" rose bell.

PaulT · Post by **PaulT** » Fri Oct 29, 2021 1:29 pm

Horses for Courses.

When I was farming, I had a 1" impact wrench. Darn thing weighed over twenty pounds. All I needed it for was occasional tire work on one of the tractors (duals on/duals off). And for that, it was needed. For anything else, I hated it. Didn't need it, didn't want it, didn't use it. And now that I'm retired, I get by wonderfully with a couple compact and light weight 18V Milwaukee impact drivers. Love, love, love them. So light, so quick, and oh so handy. If they can't handle it, I don't do it. Don't need to. (well, I do still have a nice half-inch air wrench, just in case, but it is tucked away in the garage unused for the very most part).

It is the same with my trombones. I do have a couple large and extra-large bore valve horns. I don't like the extra weight, the messy maintenance, the pain in the butt cleaning, or the general clunkiness of either. But, they are there if I need them. But, like that twenty-pound impact wrench, I have found I no longer do. Need them. I have light nimble, easy to clean and maintain, and joyful to play straight horns, a .500, a .508, and .525.

I'm covered.

This year, I started using my .508 in both bands (City and Second Wind) and so far everyone is happy, most of all, me. And, so far, I haven't encountered a single note I needed the trigger for. Well, there was one. I skipped it. No one noticed. Or cared. I certainly didn't. If it's just going to be an odd note every year or so I can't handle, then one of the baritones can have it and I'll keep playing the horn I'm comfortable with and connect with.

I like straight horns. Light, clean, simple, elegant, contraption-free straight horns.

(and I like OM's and Concert guitars, the dreads stay in the closet)

MrHCinDE · Post by **MrHCinDE** » Fri Oct 29, 2021 1:44 pm

A true diva would always know which part they‘re playing before agreeing to join a group or turn up for a gig so signalling their superiority with a straight horn is a sign of weakness. In fact, the highest level diva wouldn’t even need to ask which part, it‘s assumed it will be 1st with some covering of piccolo/1st violin parts with added bonus lip trills etc.

I‘ll choose my 8h over my 88h wherever possible btw.

On the other hand I‘ll usually bring a double-valved bass even if a single would work so go figure?

tbonesullivan · Post by **tbonesullivan** » Fri Oct 29, 2021 3:23 pm

One of these days I do plan on picking up a nice straight .525 bore horn, mostly for playing 1st parts in orchestras. Or maybe a King 4B. There are a lot of great straight horns out there.

Or I could just get a modular setup and have a straight gooseneck for when I want it.

Pezza · Post by **Pezza** » Sat Oct 30, 2021 1:30 am

I was a bass bone player for 30+ years. I'm loving my new to me Corp. Bach 12.

Have a friend who had an 88H, then got a 8H. I asked why, he'll miss the trigger. His answer was "play it". The 8H was wonderful!

I've played/owned many straight & Bb/F Bach 36. Like both.
Own a straight large bore Boosey Soverign. Plays better than all Bb/F soverigns I've played.

timbone · Post by **timbone** » Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:24 pm

A lot of players never find the virtue of playing large straight horns bowing to the convenience of the valve versus the timbre of the open horn. Sure there’s more work but there’s more reward.

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:37 pm

Lots of amateurs with the funds to own multiple versions of essentially the same horn so they can "bring the right tool to the job, and bask in tonal sensuality"

Not as many college kids or working musicians. Sure, people with salaried positions in a big orchestra might be able to justify it but ... in my mind, if you have a large bore tenor with a valve and a 3BF, you can play 150% of the tenor jobs (you can play 100% with the 3BF alone!).

I'm still loving the diva comparison.

No actual animosity to people with straight horns. This is all tongue in cheek.

hyperbolica · Post by **hyperbolica** » Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:42 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:37 pm ...
I'm still loving the diva comparison.

No actual animosity to people with straight horns. This is all tongue in cheek....

Yeah, the diva thing was definitely tongue-in-cheek. One forum I read uses purple text to denote sarcasm. A little odd, but very helpful for guys like me who can be a little obvious-challenged.

PhilE · Post by **PhilE** » Sat Oct 30, 2021 9:20 pm

The ability to make a beautiful sound on what is essentially a piece of tube with a couple of bends and a flare at one end, thoughtfully constructed, is quite satisfying.

Some years ago I had an Edwards large bore tenor from the 1990s. It had the AF valve and a 547/562 slide. It was a bit of a dog without the valve but quite good with it. Not sure why.

Then I had my straight Corp era 42 that I'd had forever, modularised and fitted with a Greenhoe valve. It plays equally well straight or valved. Very nice.

I play a straight 36 which is also nice.

Chatname · Post by **Chatname** » Sat Oct 30, 2021 9:30 pm

My least used/ least useful valve has to
be the one on my 36H alto. I have played it extensively for almost 20 years and never ever used the valve. Not once, at work. Except for some warm up phrases but they sound
so bad I would only execute them alone at home.
I have oiled the thing a thousand times (maybe more) and left it regularly to a tech for maintenance. Nothing wrong with the valve, and it’s a great playing trombone. But kind of silly, isn’t it?
Actually, when I think about it, most of my valve playing is either warming up or being lazy when the no man’s land outside of 5th position comes up. Except for the occasional modern piece (which usually contains some low B naturals anyway…).

posaunebone · Post by **posaunebone** » Sat Oct 30, 2021 9:39 pm

The diva thing is killing me too! I love it! That reminds me...I gotta go load up my quintuple gig bag real quick for this next concert. Can't risk the person next to me having more "tonal sensuality." Also, how else am I supposed to show off that I can play a low b in 7th in tune while these other guys use their plumbing!

I spent a good amount of time on a really great straight 42. It was a brief adjustment to go "backwards" from the 42B's I had been cycling through while searching for "the one." But, then the rewards everyone has mentioned already made it so worth it and it did wonders for my slide technique. Undid a ton of trigger overuse / misuse habits for me too that I had at that time.

I had more compliments on my sound on the straight horn that I ever got on the prior 42's as well and got to play probably the loudest I've ever been asked to by an orchestra conductor using it (Death and Transfiguration whole notes and the world's longest high B). It still has about 90% of that sparkle post valve add, but nevertheless something was lost throwing a valve on it. Now I'm on the hunt for a solid medium bore to get back those straight horn benefits and add a super versatile tool to my toolbox. I am eyeing a few that are out there and cannot wait!

Chatname · Post by **Chatname** » Sat Oct 30, 2021 9:51 pm

(Death and Transfiguration whole notes and the world's longest high B)
That’s a tough high B after pumping out all those loud tones in the middle range and then suddenly jumping up to that incredibly loud high B! I got dizzy there several times!

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Sat Oct 30, 2021 10:13 pm

Chatname wrote: ↑Sat Oct 30, 2021 9:30 pm My least used/ least useful valve has to
be the one on my 36H alto. I have played it extensively for almost 20 years and never ever used the valve. Not once, at work. Except for some warm up phrases but they sound
so bad I would only execute them alone at home.
I have oiled the thing a thousand times (maybe more) and left it regularly to a tech for maintenance. Nothing wrong with the valve, and it’s a great playing trombone. But kind of silly, isn’t it?
Actually, when I think about it, most of my valve playing is either warming up or being lazy when the no man’s land outside of 5th position comes up. Except for the occasional modern piece (which usually contains some low B naturals anyway…).

If you don't use it for lip trills, yeah it's basically useless. But when you want to do lip trills...

OneTon · Post by **OneTon** » Tue Nov 02, 2021 10:28 pm

A Bach LT42G with lightweight nickel slide and 9 inch gold brass bell is an all time favorite that I have retained since 1986. I take the LT42A to the first rehearsal of the community concert band each year where most often I play the 3rd book. The LT42G most often proves capable on 1st, 2nd, and. 3rd. If it is not sufficient, I have a Bach LT42A (Hagmann Valve) for 1st or 2nd, and a King Duo-Gravis for 3rd. To be honest, the LT42A most often gets off the shelf when I get it out to play some university performance major repertoire prior to cleaning and re-shelving. Life is good.

Finetales · Post by **Finetales** » Tue Nov 02, 2021 10:58 pm

The best principal trombone I've ever played was a Holton TR156 with a Bach leadpipe at DJ's. Such an incredible sound and feel. I really should have bought it!

The best .525 trombone I've ever played was a red brass bell Shires (no valve) at ETW one year, back when it was still called ETW. Buckets of character and so easy to play.

I have a great Elkhart 88H, but would love to eventually add a spectacular 8H to compliment it. Straight horns are fun when you can use them - similar to single valve bass trombones.

Thrawn22 · Post by **Thrawn22** » Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:58 am

I've preferred my 8H to an 88H.

ronnies · Post by **ronnies** » Wed Nov 03, 2021 2:36 am

When I play tenor I play a straight Bach 42 because it's the only tenor I have. No choice.

Ronnie

Goten56 · Post by **Goten56** » Wed Nov 03, 2021 3:52 am

I play a straight small bore Amati in big bands. It's great for 1st to 3rd chair. I use a Jupiter 5GS mouthpiece. Never thought of buying a trombone with a valve.

hyperbolica · Post by **hyperbolica** » Wed Nov 03, 2021 7:04 am

I was holding off mentioning this, but I just picked up the '58 8h from Brass Exchange. He got the 78h that I couldn't come to terms with. So now I can be a diva too.

Doug Bert is a great guy to work with. Friendly, never insulted me, knows his stuff, speaks English, takes great photos, prices clearly marked, you can actually shop his inventory. Has a real website. You know, stuff that people expect from a horn trader.

I've been playing my new 8h with my 525 slide and DE D cup.

This is the light, nimble and powerful orchestral horn I've been wanting. I'll probably also use it for chamber ensembles (when the diva chair opens up) . It's a very comfortable instrument. I've played an 88h for about 45 years. Always wanted a great Elkhart 8h to match. I had a UMI GenII 8hT for a while, and it was also a great horn. The ones with the heavier bells don't have the magic.

Redthunder · Post by **Redthunder** » Wed Nov 03, 2021 7:13 am

All this talk about straight tenors and no mention of what we all truly want..

straight bass trombones.

Chatname · Post by **Chatname** » Wed Nov 03, 2021 7:36 am

Actually, if you’re not ironic; early in the thread there was a mention of a straight bass. A Bach 45! Very exciting, didn’t know it existed.

elmsandr · Post by **elmsandr** » Wed Nov 03, 2021 7:46 am

Redthunder wrote: ↑Wed Nov 03, 2021 7:13 am All this talk about straight tenors and no mention of what we all truly want..

straight bass trombones.

From above:

elmsandr wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 4:58 am One of my favorite horns to play is a straight Bach 45 that I have. A really fun blow; small tight bass sound. However, without the valve it is also the most useless horn that I have. One of these days, I want to get a handslide to make it stand in low Eb, I think that will make it a very interesting horn to have around, but probably still not the most useful.

I do love playing on my straight 42 when I can; but when I'm bringing that out, I'm usually in a pit or playing a collection of 2nd-bass parts... something almost always needs the valve (or is a ton easier with it).

Cheers,
Andy

Great horn, almost useless. If anybody wants to fund that Eb slide for this... I'll give a full report.

Cheers,
Andy

MrHCinDE · Post by **MrHCinDE** » Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:03 am

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Wed Nov 03, 2021 7:04 am I've been playing my new 8h with my 525 slide and DE D cup

Welcome to the Elkhart 8h bell / .525 slide diva society. (That's my regular orchestral and small group setup)

hyperbolica · Post by **hyperbolica** » Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:31 am

MrHCinDE wrote: ↑Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:03 am Welcome to the Elkhart 8h bell / .525 slide diva society. (That's my regular orchestral and small group setup)

Wow, now I'm a member of an international diva society. Really moving up in the world! Wait til I show the guys in the orchestra my membership card, they'll all be sooooo jealous!

MrHCinDE · Post by **MrHCinDE** » Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:39 am

Any very reasonable joining fees right? Just the cost of an 8h in your case.

hyperbolica · Post by **hyperbolica** » Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:40 am

You know what I just realized - Bach players. I knew there was something I didn't like about Bach players.

straDIVArius

Post by **BGuttman** » Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:57 am

Redthunder wrote: ↑Wed Nov 03, 2021 7:13 am All this talk about straight tenors and no mention of what we all truly want..

straight bass trombones.

I have one! It's in G. 0.525" bore. Whaley and Royce stencil (probably a Besson). Won't do too well paired with your typical Orchestral tenors, though. It's really from a different era. At least it's in Low Pitch.

Kingfan · Post by **Kingfan** » Wed Nov 03, 2021 2:12 pm

Had a big band rehearsal with the bass player cancelling at the last minute. I had brought my go-to King 3B-F which is what I use for playing lead through third. The only sub they could get at short notice played a straight tenor only. I got moved to bass. I held my own, considering, but it would have been impossible with a straight horn. I have small bore straight horns (2B if I'm channeling Dorsey, Getzen 451 for parades) , but otherwise I bring a trigger horn wherever I go.

Chatname · Post by **Chatname** » Wed Nov 03, 2021 4:28 pm

For me I think there has been a bit of laziness involved with the valve! It’s less work than using 6th and 7th positions. And it’s fun to involve the valve range at least in warming up.
However when switching to a straight one my slide technique improves, and practicing low range using fake tones seems to me to be a good tool for opening up the sound.
At work (symphonic) my large bore has a valve.
Better to be lazy than a diva?!

Finetales · Post by **Finetales** » Wed Nov 03, 2021 7:41 pm

Redthunder wrote: ↑Wed Nov 03, 2021 7:13 am All this talk about straight tenors and no mention of what we all truly want..

straight bass trombones.

Someone on the old Trombone Forum (don't remember who) had a straight Rath R7 bass trombone that they used in jazz combos, among other things.

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:32 pm

I've been playing my 3B/F at work when I have to play 3rd. Today I brought my LT16M for a few sets. It felt great! But not when I had a bunch of Bs and Es. If I could get away with it (like the 1st and 2nd players can), I would definitely use a straight horn. But it's not worth the wear and tear on my arm.

imsevimse · Post by **imsevimse** » Thu Nov 04, 2021 11:18 am

MrHCinDE wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 1:44 pm A true diva would always know which part they‘re playing before agreeing to join a group or turn up for a gig so signalling their superiority with a straight horn is a sign of weakness. In fact, the highest level diva wouldn’t even need to ask which part, it‘s assumed it will be 1st with some covering of piccolo/1st violin parts with added bonus lip trills etc.

I‘ll choose my 8h over my 88h wherever possible btw.

On the other hand I‘ll usually bring a double-valved bass even if a single would work so go figure?

Yes, I always make sure I know what part I will play. It gives me the chance to pick the instrument for the evening. Usually I play first, second or fourth (bass). If I'm on second I bring something for the solos, my Yamaha 891Z. On first I might use that same horn or a Conn 44H "Vocabell" or consider a King 2b+ or other small horn. I would choose a small trigger horn if I ever get a call for third. Bass varies. I like single valved basses.

/Tom