Are Unsoldered Bells a Thing for Bass?

[ithinknot]

I'm sure you did --- but did you check the valve alignment?

I don't doubt that the horn might have four legs and a predilection for barking, but I'm surprised the double valve notes are that bad without something basic having gone wrong.

Yeah, the valves are aligned. Without engaging valves the blow isn't bad. Engaging the valves, they rotate the correct amount and the witness marks are aligned. F attachment isn't bad. 2nd valve is bad. By itself and with F. Can't find an actual fault though.

It does play now, and notes speak, so it's not like there is a blockage. It's just ... I don't know. I've played 42s like this, too.

Fair enough.

Any chance your employer might have access to a 62HI somewhere? Not too much of a handful for the primarily tenor player, soldered bell and/but definitely feels like it comes from the same universe as a modern 88H, and I know you can tolerate those.

[bassclef]

The horn is not good -- you try to blow a low C in 3rd and the slide actually starts getting blown towards fourth from the back pressure even without making a sound. The bell tape helped it speak, at least. I can post a pic if you all want a good laugh.

Serious question: why are you trying to play low C in 3rd?

In my mind, all of your descriptions about the sound and feel of that note are to be expected if you're trying to play low C 1-1.5 positions away from where you generally should be on Bb/F/D tuning. Are your attachment tuning slides pulled way out or something?

[hornbuilder]

With an instrument pitched in D, that low C is played in 3rd position. It roughly equates to 4th position of a Bb trombone.

[Burgerbob]

With an instrument pitched in D, that low C is played in 3rd position. It roughly equates to 4th position of a Bb trombone.

I think most of us would call it 4th (the Bb position), but it's worth checking!

[tbonesullivan]

The horn is not good -- you try to blow a low C in 3rd and the slide actually starts getting blown towards fourth from the back pressure even without making a sound. The bell tape helped it speak, at least. I can post a pic if you all want a good laugh.

That's gotta be a weird resonance thing. Can't say I've ever experienced that level of a horn "fighting" me in that range. Neither of my Yamaha basses do that, though the 613H is kinda beat up, so maybe all the resistance got beat out of it

[hornbuilder]

With an instrument pitched in D, that low C is played in 3rd position. It roughly equates to 4th position of a Bb trombone.

I think most of us would call it 4th (the Bb position), but it's worth checking!

It just depends on how pedantic you want to be....

[harrisonreed]

The horn is not good -- you try to blow a low C in 3rd and the slide actually starts getting blown towards fourth from the back pressure even without making a sound. The bell tape helped it speak, at least. I can post a pic if you all want a good laugh.

Serious question: why are you trying to play low C in 3rd?

In my mind, all of your descriptions about the sound and feel of that note are to be expected if you're trying to play low C 1-1.5 positions away from where you generally should be on Bb/F/D tuning. Are your attachment tuning slides pulled way out or something?

Sorry, I was gonna get snarky, but it's a fair question. It's whatever position 2T3 is. Out past the bell, but certainly not in 4th position. I do tend to pull attachment slides out pretty far because I usually play with my tuning slide all the way in. You'll have to go out on a limb and believe that I know how to play in tune without lipping it, and know how to find where notes slot on different trombones. I really do.

[Burgerbob]

Serious question: why are you trying to play low C in 3rd?

In my mind, all of your descriptions about the sound and feel of that note are to be expected if you're trying to play low C 1-1.5 positions away from where you generally should be on Bb/F/D tuning. Are your attachment tuning slides pulled way out or something?

Sorry, I was gonna get snarky, but it's a fair question. It's whatever position 2T3 is. Out past the bell, but certainly not in 4th position. I do tend to pull attachment slides out pretty far because I usually play with my tuning slide all the way in.

Is your F in tune in first position with the F attachment (in the staff)? D above the staff with both valves?

[harrisonreed]

F exactly in tune in closed first (on F side). I don't use the other D valve by itself, so I tuned that one long, so that Eb and C are the same position in T3. The valve wasn't the only issue, but nothing speaks well on the second valve, even just glissing around to find where things lay. Besides this, everything already played like a foghorn, even on the open horn, before I started messing with it.

[Burgerbob]

F exactly in tune in closed first (on F side). I don't use the other D valve by itself, so I tuned that one long, so that Eb and C are the same position in T3. The valve wasn't the only issue, but nothing speaks well on the second valve, even just glissing around to find where things lay. Besides this, everything already played like a foghorn, even on the open horn, before I started messing with it.

That's a choice! It'll probably play better tuned to Gb (shorter is always better).

[harrisonreed]

F exactly in tune in closed first (on F side). I don't use the other D valve by itself, so I tuned that one long, so that Eb and C are the same position in T3. The valve wasn't the only issue, but nothing speaks well on the second valve, even just glissing around to find where things lay. Besides this, everything already played like a foghorn, even on the open horn, before I started messing with it.

That's a choice! It'll probably play better tuned to Gb (shorter is always better).

Not sure if you're implying that I made a weird choice. Shorter on the handslide, you mean?

Yeah. I wasn't going to go crazy diving into different ways to tune the valves for just a few gigs. I figured that knowing where C and B were going to be in tune reliably was good enough, and that was all I used that valve for on the gig.

[Burgerbob]

Not sure if you're implying that I made a weird choice. Shorter on the handslide, you mean?

Yeah. I wasn't going to go crazy diving into different ways to tune the valves for just a few gigs. I figured that knowing where C and B were going to be in tune reliably was good enough, and that was all I used that valve for on the gig.

Less attachment tubing is always better for playability (of course, secondary to the instrument being good... which yours doesn't seem to be). That's why I like to have a nice Gb in first, which puts C in exactly 4th position.

[bassclef]

You'll have to go out on a limb and believe that I know how to play in tune without lipping it, and know how to find where notes slot on different trombones. I really do.

I wanted to sleep on it before I replied to be sure I was making the right decision.

I'll only say that I've been burned by trusting people with this before...but, okay. I believe you.

[PaulT]

[harrisonreed]

You'll have to go out on a limb and believe that I know how to play in tune without lipping it, and know how to find where notes slot on different trombones. I really do.

I wanted to sleep on it before I replied to be sure I was making the right decision.

I'll only say that I've been burned by trusting people with this before...but, okay. I believe you.

[Jimkinkella]

Always funky and funkier with the 2nd valve kind of points to the 2nd valve assembly.
Not necessarily the degree of rotation, but alignment of the actual port construction, possible burrs or solder joint issues where the knuckle meets the valve body, something like that.
Any chance you have access to an endoscope a tech might have? The kind of thing you might use to check a gun barrel.
Just an idea I hadn’t seen on this thread yet....