I find that I always gravitate back to shallower (shallower than a Bach C cup) mouthpieces. I have one of Doug's B cups, an original Purviance (and a Reeves Purviance), a Warburton M cup, and some others that I like more than their similar (but deeper) counterparts.
I have some horns that just straight-up don't like this depth of mouthpiece but others that do. It does not seem to be consistent in terms of specs. For example, I have a 36 that hates these mouthpieces but have played 78/79s that love them. I have an Olds Recording that loves them but an Olds Recording R20 (w/f and 9" bell) that hates them (????). King 3bs tend not to like them but I've played some 691/891s that do, and Edwards 508s do. The horns that "don't like" the mouthpieces seem anemic with them, like I can't fill them up so they sound empty and airy.
What horns do you find like shallower mouthpieces? I know there's not clinically-applicable rule to this but I want to get a bunch of anecdotes/opinions anyway so that I can go out and try some horns that my mouthpieces might like.
I tend to come at it from the other direction. I gravitate toward horns that play well with larger mouthpieces. The one exception to this that I have is my Olds Recording (8" bell, no F). It likes a Doug Elliott C cup with a 2 shank, D at the biggest. Which is funny because it gets a big, open, warm sound. I had an alto that liked a 15 size, but I had trouble playing that mouthpiece.
The bigger mouthpieces give me a wider articulation vocabulary, I think. I can make a bigger distinction between the short and long, and the slurs and tongued notes. The Courtois 402 would take bigger pieces, as would the Shires MD+ - say maybe up to a Doug Elliott E cup with a 3 or 4 shank.
You're right about the 78/79h taking a smaller cup than you'd expect for a 0.522 bore. In fact, I've had a couple of 78s that I've had to play smaller to get them to respond. It's my theory that the 78h is the reason why Conn never developed a 0.508 bore instrument. My last one played well on a C or D. To me 79s are different from 78s, they play a little bigger maybe because of the extra weight or resistance (there aren't any other differences, really). I can play the 79 with an E cup, but it does play nicely with D, and with a C it takes on a kind of alto-ish sound, which is odd. I've never ventured down into the DE B cup range.
Of the horns I've tried, I think the Holton Stratodyne 67 gets on best with shallow mouthpieces (full disclosure: I'm selling mine at the moment). I even quite like it with the Yamaha 48A.
3B(F) I found works with pretty much anything, from shallow to deep, depending what you want from it.
With a 6H (full disclosure again: also selling) and Minick 0.500" I prefer less shallow mouthpieces, generally at least Bach C or deeper.
My 3B and 3BF like everything. I use my Warburton S cup (even shallower than the M - it's very shallow!) more than any other mouthpiece on my 3Bs and they love it. It absolutely rocks in a 6H too.
Actually, I have yet to find a small shank trombone that doesn't like my S cup, but some don't do so well with my deeper Hammond M cups. The only instrument I've tried that the S cup does not work well in is my King flugabone...it barks and bites in the worst way with it. I don't think it's just the horn and mouthpiece combination that determines whether or not a horn "likes" a cup depth or not, how you play is a big part as well.
In my experience, some instruments are more sensitive to cup DIAMETER than cup depth. Like my bass trumpet likes a terrible tiny mouthpiece I have better than anything else because of how small it is, and we've talked plenty on Trombone Chat about certain bass trombones that like smaller mouthpieces.
Thank you both for the replies. I couldn't get on with the Warburton S cup but I also don't get on with the D cup; super interesting!
Also interesting that you both mentioned the 3b; I wonder if it's an "age" of 3b that just didn't work for me/my gear. I have played on a bunch of 3bs and only a couple I've liked.
I'm glad to read agreements about the 78/79h and the Recording! I'm not crazy! I like 79hs way more than 78hs for the reasons mentioned (weightier sound from a weightier instrument). I wonder if a 32h would work well with shallow mouthpieces? Anybody have one lying around?
Small bores in general love shallow mouthpieces. If you have a small horn that doesn't get along well with, say, your B cup from Doug, it could will be an issue of the backbore and throat. For example, on the extreme end, on my alto, if you try to play with a shank intended for a .508 bore instrument (a "3" shank I believe), even if it matches the cup letter, it doesn't work well. Throw in the tighter alto shank and boom, you're in business. Lindberg, one of the very best alto trombonists has one of the shallowest and tightest alto pieces you can buy, the 15CL.
Likewise on the other extreme, on my large tenor, I'm realizing more and more that the 5G cup depth is all wrong. It's too deep. Mouthpiece makers, I think, were compensating for the fact that they had one blank size to work with, so they went deep in the cup and sometimes tight in the shank when they should have gone wider and shallower. But a wide, shallow mouthpiece with a 5G backbore and throat isn't really that great. I opened up these things on my mouthpieces and they are perfect for me and my setup. I look to our favorite orchestral trombonists, sitting on first, and a lot of them are playing shallower gear than a 5G. Forget about the rim they play. And you look at Joe's pieces and they all have huge throats and backbores. 20 years ago, his were even more open. Lindberg, too, uses a mouthpiece that is very shallow and has an almost absurdly large throat and backbore. But it really does work!
I noticed that, prior to moving to the Lindberg valve and sterling bell, CL played a mouthpiece with a relatively normal throat/backbore (for the early 90s). Moving to the heavy bell and open valve, he went huge on the throat in what is otherwise a very similar mouthpiece to what he had before. Similarly, Alessi, moving to a normal rotor from the more open Thayer, went a bit tighter in the throat on his new mouthpieces.
So, I think shallow is where it is at. Even better if you get the cup width to fit your face. But we get the shank wrong most of the time, and it's not always "go big" or "go small". It depends!
Last edited by harrisonreed on Fri Feb 04, 2022 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
TromboneMonkey wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 3:38 pm
I wonder if a 32h would work well with shallow mouthpieces? Anybody have one lying around?
I don't have a 32H, but I do have its little brother - a 1936 Conn 30H (0.494"/0.507" dual bore), in surprisongly good condition. Unfortunately, the only mouthpieces that fit snugly in the receiver are Conns - Conn 3 and Conn 2 - so I can't make any judgments. (For what it's worth, I prefer the Conn 3.)
I`ve had 3 32H`s over the years and they all lit up with a 7C
I`ve played a 7C on 78H`s, 32H`s 36`s, 16M`s, 12 `s - they all like it.
I have an Lt8G - it tends to fight the 7C unless I`m playing on the mic and softly
Small bore Bachs seem to work well with shallow mpcs, where they bring out some needed color in the sound. Now that everyone it seems is used to large bore horns, it may seem counter intuitive but sometimes true that with smaller bore horns, a smaller mouthpiece may give a bigger sound.
My Edwards plays well on a DE MP B cup.
Horn play really easy. Some days it will play by itself.
Edwards Sterling bell 525/547
Edwards brass bell 547/562
Edwards Jazz w/ Ab valve 500"/.508"
Markus Leuchter Alto Trombone
Bass Bach 50 Bb/F/C dependent.
Cerveny oval euphonium
Full list in profile
I like my M21 on my 2B and my Olds recording, but I'm not sure how the depth of that compares to modern pieces. I've also used a Schilke 47B to pretty good effect, just don't play in/below the staff too much with that one.
