Medium Bore Horn (+att.) Recommendations

EriKon · Post by **EriKon** » Sun Apr 03, 2022 7:10 am

Basically the title. Searching for a nice medium bore horn as I own a great handmade small bore for my jazz stuff and an okayish large bore (Conn 88H) for classical music. As I've been playing lots of theatre and musical stuff lately, I want to try some medium bore horns for that. So, would be very happy about any recommendations. Thank you in advance!

Post by **BGuttman** » Sun Apr 03, 2022 8:03 am

I'd suggest the standard set:

Bach 36B
Conn 79H
King 3B-F or 2125F (607 or 608 in a pinch)
Yamaha 640 (or 684 or 646)

Generally I'd suggest a Medium Bore with F for theater use. The parts can really be all over the place.

muschem · Post by **muschem** » Sun Apr 03, 2022 8:19 am

Another possibility is to find a medium bore slide that will fit your existing 88H bell section. Easier to store a slide than a complete horn. You can either go for something new (https://www.hickeys.com/search.php?q=sl2525), or watch for a used one (https://www.thebrass-exchange.com/conte ... -handslide) to pop up on the forum or other marketplace.

On a related note, I'd love to see more case options with multiple slide compartments.

MrHCinDE · Post by **MrHCinDE** » Sun Apr 03, 2022 10:02 am

What is it that makes the 88h only okayish?

If the bell section is good (i.e. you think the okayishness lies with the condition of the 0.547" slide), it could well be worth looking for a medium bore slide as suggested by muschem. I really like playing a medium bore slide on my 8h but wouldn't have bothered with getting the medium bore slide if I didn't already know the bell is a good one.

If your 88h bell section is a bit meh, a medium bore slide might suit your playing approach for theatre and musicals better so could still be an improvement but don't expect too much. In that case, you'd probably be better off putting the cost of a new or used SL2525 into a complete medium bore setup from the usual suspects mentioned by Bruce which can be sometimes be found used in good condition for not much more than the price of an SL2525.

A lot of folks seem to like the Yamaha 356 also, with a 0.500"/0.525" dual bore and F attachment that is a very flexible horn indeed.

(@muschem, good shout on the cases with space for multiple slides, I'd fancy one of them)

Posaunus · Post by **Posaunus** » Sun Apr 03, 2022 10:09 am

muschem wrote: ↑Sun Apr 03, 2022 8:19 am ... I'd love to see more case options with multiple slide compartments.

EriKon · Post by **EriKon** » Sun Apr 03, 2022 12:13 pm

MrHCinDE wrote: ↑Sun Apr 03, 2022 10:02 am What is it that makes the 88h only okayish?

If the bell section is good (i.e. you think the okayishness lies with the condition of the 0.547" slide), it could well be worth looking for a medium bore slide as suggested by muschem. I really like playing a medium bore slide on my 8h but wouldn't have bothered with getting the medium bore slide if I didn't already know the bell is a good one.

If your 88h bell section is a bit meh, a medium bore slide might suit your playing approach for theatre and musicals better so could still be an improvement but don't expect too much. In that case, you'd probably be better off putting the cost of a new or used SL2525 into a complete medium bore setup from the usual suspects mentioned by Bruce which can be sometimes be found used in good condition for not much more than the price of an SL2525.

The slide is quite good, but the bell section is meh and it makes the horn really hard to play. And the valve is really bad. I play this horn for quite a long time already, so I'm used to it. That's why it works okayish for me. I've tried a lot more easier horns to play already tho. But medium bore has priority for now, although I appreciate the suggestion of mixing parts of different instruments.

I've been looking for Bach 36 (w/att) and Conn 79H lately, but especially for the latter I've only seen very expensive ones for 4-5k. Going to test a couple of 36 horns later this week.

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Sun Apr 03, 2022 1:56 pm

I'm digging my beater King 607. Using it on a couple gigs in the next week, I'll let you know how it works IRL, but it seems solid at home. Much cheaper than a 79H!

Posaunus · Post by **Posaunus** » Sun Apr 03, 2022 2:53 pm

EKTrombone wrote: ↑Sun Apr 03, 2022 12:13 pm I've been looking for Bach 36 (w/att) and Conn 79H lately, but especially for the latter I've only seen very expensive ones for 4-5k.

Yes, Conn 79H are fine trombones, but are rather rare, and getting to be quite expensive.
Bach 36B, etc. are much more plentiful, and also can be very good. (Depends on history / condition.)

Good luck!

spencercarran · Post by **spencercarran** » Sun Apr 03, 2022 5:47 pm

BGuttman wrote: ↑Sun Apr 03, 2022 8:03 amKing 3B-F or 2125F (607 or 608 in a pinch)

Or Benge 175F, pretty similar except open wrap. They don't come up for sale often though, which makes 36B the standard reliable bet for a good 0.525.

Aznguyy · Post by **Aznguyy** » Sun Apr 03, 2022 6:19 pm

If it's just for Theatre and pit shows, getting a King 3BF is all you need. It's smaller than a medium bore but works better in that situation.

Pezza · Post by **Pezza** » Sun Apr 03, 2022 6:35 pm

I love my Bach 36K.
Yamaha YSL 456A are good. Made for the Australian market in consultation with James Morrison. A lighter tone, easy high range, decent low range. Has an F attachment.

soseggnchips · Post by **soseggnchips** » Mon Apr 04, 2022 3:51 am

In addition to the Yamahas already mentioned there's also the 446 (which they market as an intermediate model). Basically, any Yamaha that's the right size is probably going to be a safe bet.

Another possibility would be an older US-made Blessing. They're decently made Conn clones, and can be picked up for next to nothing if you'd be happy with something cheap and cheerful.

Fidbone · Post by **Fidbone** » Mon Apr 04, 2022 5:06 am

King 3BF+ if you can find one!
Rath R3F if you have money.
Bach 36B
Conn 79H

JLivi · Post by **JLivi** » Mon Apr 04, 2022 10:07 am

A lot of great horns have been mentioned already, but one I've always been intrigued about and have never tried is the Getzen 1036F. If one pops up that would probably be a good one to pick up too.

I went on the medium bore hunt for the past 4-5 years. I've played a lot of different ones, and have finally settled on a 79h with a different (shorter) lead pipe. The one horn I regret selling was a Benge 175f. But I've also owned a Conn 74h (8.5" rose brass bell with .525 slide (still own actually, fixing slide to sell)). And I've also bought and sold Yamaha 646, Bach 36, and the Benge 175f I mentioned earlier.

Bach trombones and I have never got along so I've never been a fan of the 36, but I understand that there are a lot of Bach lovers out there and rightfully so. It just doesn't work for me for some reason. Literally every one I've played (16, 36 and 42). The bass trombone works for me though, not sure why.

Good luck on your quest to find a medium bore.

hyperbolica · Post by **hyperbolica** » Mon Apr 04, 2022 11:58 am

From a practical standpoint, the Bach 36b can be a great horn, and is easy to find. Conn 88h w/525 slide is also a great combination. There have been a couple 79h on ebay recently. One a fixer upper and one an Abilene in great shape. M&W make a very nice medium bore, but the Rath R3 is my favorite current production.

36b is the easiest and low risk pro model to get. The 79h feels lighter and more nimble. The Yamahas in this size may technically check the boxes, but I don't think they offer the personality of the Conn and Bach. Olds Recording w/f would be a quirky option on the small side, but the sound is dark and stable.

tbonesullivan · Post by **tbonesullivan** » Mon Apr 04, 2022 1:00 pm

I have a Yamaha YSL-640, and I feel it is a great all around horn. I had considered a Bach 36, but at the time they were hard to find, and the 640 came with a silent brass included. I don't use it as much as I used to as I'm playing mostly bass and 2nd trombone parts now, so it doesn't really get out of the stable much.

modelerdc · Post by **modelerdc** » Mon Apr 04, 2022 3:05 pm

I love the Bach 36, but for a little larger jazz horn with F valve a Conn 78H with f valve or 79H would be fantastic even if a little hard to find. King 3B+ is also good. .525 bore slides on large bore bells are nice but do play like scaled down large horns rather than scaled up jazz horns.

calcbone · Post by **calcbone** » Mon Apr 04, 2022 5:27 pm

About 20 years ago, our college jazz band had John Mosca as a guest artist…at the time, he was playing lead in the Village Vanguard band on a 79H. A few years later I got to see the VJO live, and he sounded great on it!

EriKon · Post by **EriKon** » Fri Apr 08, 2022 1:07 pm

So, I just wanted to share today's experiences:

I've went to my favorite brass manufactury today and tried 4 medium bore horns. A Bach 36B (late 80s), a Bach LT36 BOG (mid 80s), a King 3BF, and one by the man himself. All horns in excellent shape and condition, no dings scratches or anything else that would bother, perfect lacquer. Both Bachs felt really good, although the 36B sounded a tiny bit stuffy, but both horns played really well.
The King had that typical King problems in terms of intonation (high B flat way too low), and this one played with too much resistance for my taste.
The horn by the manufacturer himself was absolutely awesome and the valve was the best that I've ever seen and played. But the sound of this one was too dark for what I would like to use the horn for.

So, I sticked at the LT36 BOG and took it with me to try it out for 2 weeks. Guess I'm going to play a couple of shows with it next week and see whether it serves my (and my colleague's) needs and expectations. Price (2,4k €) might seem a little high compared to horns you can get on Ebay or somewhere else, but there's not the slightest flaw, technically and visually, with this horn. It looks brand new and it plays really good. Looking forward to check it out.

Posaunus · Post by **Posaunus** » Fri Apr 08, 2022 1:35 pm

Congratulations on your new trombone. You will probably love it.

I was interested to learn that the white alloy containing copper, zinc, and nickel that we call "nickel silver" is also called "German silver" (developed in Germany in the late 1800s as a less expensive substitute for silver).
[The outer slide of the Bach LT36 BOG is German silver; the bell is "gold brass."]

EriKon · Post by **EriKon** » Fri Apr 08, 2022 1:43 pm

Posaunus wrote: ↑Fri Apr 08, 2022 1:35 pm Congratulations on your new trombone. You will probably love it.

I was interested to learn that the white alloy containing copper, zinc, and nickel that we call "nickel silver" is also called "German silver" (developed in Germany in the late 1800s as a less expensive substitute for silver).
[The outer slide of the Bach LT36 BOG is German silver; the bell is "gold brass."]

I haven't bought it so far! But I have kind of reserved it and as I'm a regular and loyal customer, I can try the instrument "as long as I want" and see if I really want to buy it. But the first impression was really good. I'll be curious to see whether this impression is going to get confirmed in the next couple of weeks!

And very interesting about the German Silver! Never heard of that, but sounds very reasonable and logical.

pompatus · Post by **pompatus** » Fri Apr 08, 2022 2:23 pm

Congratulations, EKTrombone, preliminarily! I’ve always loved that combination of the LT slide with gold brass bell. I hope it’s a great one for you!

MrHCinDE · Post by **MrHCinDE** » Fri Apr 08, 2022 2:54 pm

Nice idea the LT slide, sounds like a perfect setup for musicals etc.

Post by **BGuttman** » Fri Apr 08, 2022 3:27 pm

There are two popular combinations for the Bach 36: standard slide and yellow bell, or LT slide and gold bell. I have the latter and like it a lot.

tbonesullivan · Post by **tbonesullivan** » Fri Apr 08, 2022 6:50 pm

BGuttman wrote: ↑Fri Apr 08, 2022 3:27 pm There are two popular combinations for the Bach 36: standard slide and yellow bell, or LT slide and gold bell. I have the latter and like it a lot.

I know several people who had that same setup during my HS Region / Allstate band days.

In general Nickel Slides and Gold or Red brass bells seem to be popular. Most of the used 36s I see are the standard all yellow brass.

sterb225 · Post by **sterb225** » Sat Apr 09, 2022 4:17 pm

36 with gold brass bell and a nickel slide is my favorite combo for pit ... not as common, but a winning combo.

jorymil · Post by **jorymil** » Sun Apr 10, 2022 5:18 pm

EKTrombone wrote: ↑Fri Apr 08, 2022 1:07 pm Price (2,4k €) might seem a little high compared to horns you can get on Ebay or somewhere else, but there's not the slightest flaw, technically and visually, with this horn. It looks brand new and it plays really good. Looking forward to check it out.

It's more than what a vintage horn like that would retail for in the U.S., but only by 20% or so, and you're supporting a local company. If you put lips to mouthpiece and the sound makes you smile, seems worth it to me.

EriKon · Post by **EriKon** » Sun Apr 10, 2022 5:40 pm

jorymil wrote: ↑Sun Apr 10, 2022 5:18 pm
EKTrombone wrote: ↑Fri Apr 08, 2022 1:07 pm Price (2,4k €) might seem a little high compared to horns you can get on Ebay or somewhere else, but there's not the slightest flaw, technically and visually, with this horn. It looks brand new and it plays really good. Looking forward to check it out.
It's more than what a vintage horn like that would retail for in the U.S., but only by 20% or so, and you're supporting a local company. If you put lips to mouthpiece and the sound makes you smile, seems worth it to me.

Yeah, thought so. Usually horns over here in central Europe here are more expensive than in the US. And local stores are even a bit more expensive. The advantage might be that you'll have a great condition of the instrument for sure. To be honest, I'm often hesitant to buy used horns that I've never played before, especially if it's not just sth for fun, but a horn that I really want to use and work with. But I still check those stores that I know in the US, especially BrassArk.

comebackplayer · Post by **comebackplayer** » Sun Apr 10, 2022 6:57 pm

I found a used Jupiter 536 for around $300 in good cosmetic/playing condition. I really like it! It's also a .525 with F attachment. The newer model is the 1100.

atopper333 · Post by **atopper333** » Mon Apr 11, 2022 1:14 am

Definitely another vote for the 36. I love my 36BO. It plays very nice, I’m just trying to find the right mouthpiece…

I had a Holton TR602F throughout high school. I did like the way it played, but the f attachment felt rather…stuffy. It definitely was an intermediate instrument. Don’t see to many of them and most of the ones I come across are rather ‘well loved.’

jorymil · Post by **jorymil** » Mon Apr 11, 2022 12:33 pm

atopper333 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 11, 2022 1:14 am I had a Holton TR602F throughout high school. I did like the way it played, but the f attachment felt rather…stuffy. It definitely was an intermediate instrument. Don’t see to many of them and most of the ones I come across are rather ‘well loved.’

I got one for a song ( < $100 ) off of eBay recently: the valve tubing and rotor seemed undersized compared to the rest of the horn. Seemed like a decent bell and slide, but probably just backup/outdoor horn compared to a Conn, King, Bach, or Yamaha.

deanmccarty · Post by **deanmccarty** » Tue Apr 12, 2022 4:29 am

My two favorite medium bore instruments I’ve ever played were a Bach 36 with a gold bell and nickel slide, and a Rath R3 with a nickel bell and yellow slide. The Rath slightly wins out, but both were fantastic.

Thrawn22 · Post by **Thrawn22** » Tue Apr 12, 2022 5:09 pm

Boo on 3Bf.

36G horns, at least the oness I've tried, have always played well. A reason why i bought a 36G bell section.

I had an ok 8H bell an ex got me. It played better when it rolled off the top of my car and crumpled the bell. It played even better when i had it converted to a convertible bell section.

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Tue Apr 12, 2022 5:47 pm

Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 12, 2022 5:09 pm Boo on 3Bf.

Ok, you'll have to justify that with some actual thought though. I've sold 2 pro friends on 3B/Fs so hard that they bought and use them over their straight 3Bs.

I just put my 607F through 3 days of outdoor gig hell- it did quite well. Possible 3B bell transplant coming soon.

jorymil · Post by **jorymil** » Tue Apr 12, 2022 6:38 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Apr 12, 2022 5:47 pm
I just put my 607F through 3 days of outdoor gig hell- it did quite well. Possible 3B bell transplant coming soon.

Will definitely be curious to hear about this. Did you end up swapping the leadpipe?

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Tue Apr 12, 2022 8:50 pm

jorymil wrote: ↑Tue Apr 12, 2022 6:38 pm
Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Apr 12, 2022 5:47 pm
I just put my 607F through 3 days of outdoor gig hell- it did quite well. Possible 3B bell transplant coming soon.
Will definitely be curious to hear about this. Did you end up swapping the leadpipe?

Not yet.

Right now the horn is almost without quirk- no strange intonation things, no strange response things, very even up and down the instrument. Low range is great, high range is free blowing but definitely more work than I'm used to with my 3B/F. In a section it really filled out the spot between bass and the other two tenors.

The only real downside is the sound, while larger and more robust than a 3B, is missing a quality that the King pro horns have. I sometimes feel like a 3B is one of the most "natural" sounding trombones out there- very little of the horn imparting itself on the player. But it does do more than this 607, by a meaningful amount.

I have another 3B/F on the way- we'll see what happens, but I'm thinking about transplanting that bell and tuning slide to the 607, which is in (at best) questionable shape. A leadpipe will really change the instrument, for the better I think- just not sure what to get that's not spendy!

atopper333 · Post by **atopper333** » Tue Apr 12, 2022 9:31 pm

jorymil wrote: ↑Mon Apr 11, 2022 12:33 pm
atopper333 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 11, 2022 1:14 am I had a Holton TR602F throughout high school. I did like the way it played, but the f attachment felt rather…stuffy. It definitely was an intermediate instrument. Don’t see to many of them and most of the ones I come across are rather ‘well loved.’
I got one for a song ( < $100 ) off of eBay recently: the valve tubing and rotor seemed undersized compared to the rest of the horn. Seemed like a decent bell and slide, but probably just backup/outdoor horn compared to a Conn, King, Bach, or Yamaha.

Well that was a heck of a deal. Wouldn’t mind picking one up in that price range for nostalgia’s sake.

I had a King 607 in silver plate very briefly. I really wanted to like the horn, I just couldn’t get a good feel/sound on it. I bought it refurbished…and maybe it was just a poorly done job, but then again, it could have been me. Been thinking about a 3bf+, just can’t justify it right now. Wonder how the construction materials of the two differs…

Post by **BGuttman** » Tue Apr 12, 2022 9:36 pm

King no longer makes the 3B+ with F. You will have to find an old 2125F (which is a 3B+ with F).

jorymil · Post by **jorymil** » Fri Apr 15, 2022 11:17 am

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Apr 12, 2022 8:50 pm
jorymil wrote: ↑Tue Apr 12, 2022 6:38 pm
Will definitely be curious to hear about this. Did you end up swapping the leadpipe?
I have another 3B/F on the way- we'll see what happens, but I'm thinking about transplanting that bell and tuning slide to the 607, which is in (at best) questionable shape. A leadpipe will really change the instrument, for the better I think- just not sure what to get that's not spendy!

I'll be curious to hear (literally) how the transplant goes. With the leadpipe, M/K drawing make .525 ones, as does Brad Close. Doug Bert may have something as well. But if you're paying $500 or $600 for the original horn, $150 or so for a leadpipe, plus $100 or so for shipping+labor, is money you're not going to be able to get back at resale. You might be able to backorder a 3BPL mouthpipe from Conn-Selmer directly as well.

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Fri Apr 15, 2022 11:53 am

jorymil wrote: ↑Fri Apr 15, 2022 11:17 am

I'll be curious to hear (literally) how the transplant goes. With the leadpipe, M/K drawing make .525 ones, as does Brad Close. Doug Bert may have something as well. But if you're paying $500 or $600 for the original horn, $150 or so for a leadpipe, plus $100 or so for shipping+labor, is money you're not going to be able to get back at resale. You might be able to backorder a 3BPL mouthpipe from Conn-Selmer directly as well.

I just got a donor 3B/F- that bell and tuning slide will be going on soon. That's definitely first! The last leadpipe I had removed destroyed the inner, and I'm really afraid of that happening again.