What makes a “German” style alto “German”?

[johntarr]

I’m interested in learning more about the differences between German style altos and whatever their counterparts are called. Or, what makes a German style alto sound/play German (other than the decorations)?

One maker that I know of, M&W, makes both a German alto and (what would it be called?) a non-German alto, how do these compare in sound and feel?

Many thanks for any insight,

John

[tbonesullivan]

It's probably similar to the "German Style" trombones, which often have leadpipes that take up the entire length of one side of the slide. The bells are usually made from very thin metal, and then supported with a bell garland / kranz. The resonance of the instruments are usually fine tuned using snakes on the tuning slide, and often on the slide end bow as well.

[hornbuilder]

Very generally speaking, German trombones have big bells, and small bore slides, compared to American instruments. For example, a traditional German bass trombone may have a bell diameter of 10.5", with a dual slide bore of .547"/.562".

There are other features, such as proportions of bell length to slide length, with German instruments having longer slide sections/shorter bell sections, compared to American instruments.

Bells are often very thin, with a nickel silver rim or "Kranz"/"garland" to provide a degree of structural rigidity to the bell rim.

The snake designs (and their associated cap plate that they are mounted on) also provide a degree of structural rigidity and reinforcement for the bell and handslide crooks, which are also quite thin, traditionally.

There really are no standards for leadpipes with German instruments. There are many examples from many well known makers that do not have a leadpipe at all, with others having a leadpipe, perhaps a little longer than would be common in an American instrument.

The initial M&W "German style" instrument incorporates many traditional features. There are "many" possible variations that could also be described as being "traditional" to a German instrument.

[bcschipper]

Compared to American trombones, a German trombone is typically
- much thinner and lighter, especially the bell. It should come alive when playing both in terms of vibration and sound color. No foghorn-like boring homogeneity of the sound from a dead piece of metal. (I am very sorry for my provocative exaggeration but I think it makes my point very starkly.)
- have a larger bell (although this is not necessarily the case for altos),
- have different a bell tapper (in some sense more extreme)
- have a one piece hand-hammered bell with a seam
- have a seamed crook
- have a smaller bore
- have no leadpipes
- use German moutpieces with smaller bore (that give some resistance since there is no leadpipe).
- the 7th partial is in tune.

Most builders today, even in Germany, do not really build German trombones anymore although they may have some design elements of German trombones. If you like German trombones, look at Helmut Voigt trombones (not Jürgen Voigt): https://helmut-voigt.com/ Excellent alto trombones by the way.

Altos are much less “standardized”. To support my point, here is a photo of two very different German altos side-by-side, both made by Ed. Kruspe, who to some was probably the “Stradivarius” of trombone building. They are both from the 50th.

[johntarr]

The initial M&W "German style" instrument incorporates many traditional features. There are "many" possible variations that could also be described as being "traditional" to a German instrument.

Thank you Mathew. How does the sound of your German style instrument compare to your non-German model?

[hornbuilder]

The German "style" instrument responds very well, and makes a clear, singing sound. My "regular" alto's also have similar features, but do play a little "heavier" due to the thicker bells and larger bore slide.

[Digidog]

I have had troubles, one or the other way, with playing all of the few German-style trombones I've ever tried.

Some issues I can identify, like me playing "through" the bell, or not coming to terms with the first node outside the bell, while some things I've experienced have been utterly mysterious, like not finding an in tune F#. Maybe it's my playing style, maybe it's my disposition of air and airflow, maybe it's just a lack of time to adjust.

I once had a Schmelzer 2, which is in a "German" vein, that I sold off because of that German-style hint in its construction. The horn was perfectly fine, but I didn't suit me, and I could never come to grips with its characteristics.

[Kbiggs]

Heinrich Thein of Thein instruments wrote an article, “The Characteristics of [the] German Trombone.” Here it is:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/am9z1u3jqjb ... 7Oy5a?dl=0

[bcschipper]

I have had troubles, one or the other way, with playing all of the few German-style trombones I've ever tried.

Some issues I can identify, like me playing "through" the bell, or not coming to terms with the first node outside the bell, while some things I've experienced have been utterly mysterious, like not finding an in tune F#. Maybe it's my playing style, maybe it's my disposition of air and airflow, maybe it's just a lack of time to adjust.

I once had a Schmelzer 2, which is in a "German" vein, that I sold off because of that German-style hint in its construction. The horn was perfectly fine, but I didn't suit me, and I could never come to grips with its characteristics.

When my colleagues in the orchestra try my trombone, they tell me that they would have to blow differently. When my teacher tried, he got excited if not enthusiastic and owns now some German trombones as well.

I am not sure what you mean with “playing through the bell”, but yes, the sounds exits the bell. The bell is made to let the energy transmit. For German trombones, the bell is very thin. You “feel the sound” in your hands when holding the trombone.

German trombones require careful articulation. The sound is not so on/off but it allows you to really shape it. It requires more careful control though.

Typically, there are a couple of f# on the trombone. If you mean the 7th partial f#, since the 7th partial is in tune on German trombones, it is more like third position rather than third-sharp position.

I haven’t played Schmelzer trombones and I do not know how German it still is. So I cannot comment. Generally though I believe that German trombones are more difficult to control but also more versatile in sound.

[hornbuilder]

The first German instrument I spent any time on was a Glassl contra. "Huge" amount of "learning to play the piccolo" as they say in the Jet Fighter Pilot community (!! )

There have since been a string of Kruspe's, Scherzer's, Shopper's, the odd Kuhn, and a few others. They don't play like American instruments. If you try and play them like American horns, they just don't jive. But they are "So" worth it on the right repertoire!!

[bcschipper]

The first German instrument I spent any time on was a Glassl contra. "Huge" amount of "learning to play the piccolo" as they say in the Jet Fighter Pilot community (!! )

There have since been a string of Kruspe's, Scherzer's, Shopper's, the odd Kuhn, and a few others. They don't play like American instruments. If you try and play them like American horns, they just don't jive. But they are "So" worth it on the right repertoire!!

I think that’s a very reasonable approach. These romantic German trombones could be played in the same spirit as sackbuts but instead of baroque we would care about historical performance praxis of the romantic period. And like sackbuts, one should not expect them to play like a American trombone.

By the way, there is a Facebook group on German trombones/Deutsche Posaune if this is of interest.

[Digidog]

I am not sure what you mean with “playing through the bell”, but yes, the sounds exits the bell. The bell is made to let the energy transmit. For German trombones, the bell is very thin. You “feel the sound” in your hands when holding the trombone.

By that I mean the feeling that the bell isn't accomodating the sound vibrations; like there appears a node in a position which the instrument isn't built to have, and the vibrations of the bell give you unwanted overtones and a feeling that your tone is leveraged and shaped outside the bell, instead of by the bell. With some horns it can happen when I play very loud, but with my Schmelzer that could appear even at moderate volumes.

Typically, there are a couple of f# on the trombone. If you mean the 7th partial f#, since the 7th partial is in tune on German trombones, it is more like third position rather than third-sharp position.

Before trying one German horn, long time ago, I was advised that the F# wasn't in a sharp 3rd, so that I knew. The mystery is that I couldn't find an in tune F# at the 5th position.....

I haven’t played Schmelzer trombones and I do not know how German it still is. So I cannot comment. Generally though I believe that German trombones are more difficult to control but also more versatile in sound.

The Schmelzer was a very well made horn, with nimble playing characteristics and a great tone - when played softly. The bell was very thin, the slide tubes too, and though it was a fast, agile player, it was totally unsuitable for me.

Given what I know now, I realize that the Schmelzer was built in a totally different tradition than my previous horns, and that it demanded a playing style I either couldn't produce at the time, or knew how to achieve.

[hornbuilder]

The Schmelzer instruments are not "traditional" German trombones. They are heavily inspired by the American made Williams instruments.

[MStarke]

Exactly, I have never had one in my hands, but Schmelzer trombones have nothing to do with what you would call a German trombone. BTW same applies for most or all Kühnl & Hoyer trombones. It's a common misconception that they are German tradition trombones. Also the B&S Meistersinger trombones are not really German-style instruments, even if they have a silver garland on the bell.

[Digidog]

Exactly, I have never had one in my hands, but Schmelzer trombones have nothing to do with what you would call a German trombone.

The Schmelzer instruments are not "traditional" German trombones. They are heavily inspired by the American made Williams instruments.

I have played a Schmelzer, though.

To their shape and proportions, and in some details, they are very much inspired by Williams, but: The bells on the Scmelzers I've played, were all very thin, just like the German-style horns I've briefly tried, the slides had very similar characteristics and the bell flare, though not as extreme, were in-the-vein-of.

I had my Schmelzer for four or five years, extensively practising and gigging it, so I know what it played like and how it behaved. It was long after I sold it, that I got the chance to try a Thein and felt the similarities.

[Doug Elliott]

Schmelzers do have a little bit wider bell throat than most, but it's subtle. The #1 plays very much like a Williams 6, in the American style and is not adversely affected by the thin bell. But I sort of know what you mean about the #2, it plays "bigger" than other .508's and I don't get along with it as well. That bore size always seems "not small enough" or "not big enough" to me.

[PNeiteler]

I see a lot of comments referring to technical differences between a „German“ style instrument and an „American“ style instrument. Those differences are certainly important but do not describe the differences in feel and sound which are important to us players.

I play both types of instruments quite equally over a longer period of time and would like to describe the differences in a general view that the American trombone has a slightly higher tendency to the trumpet where the German trombone towards the French horn. In general the sound of the American trombone is more voluminous, the German trombone sound is more flat. While the American trombone has a tendency to sound much more equal in all dynamics, the German trombone normally sounds darker at low volume but gets very brilliant - kind of metallic brilliance - at high volume like a extremely loud playing French horn.

In the lower register the American trombone has more voluminous sound with very high slightly sizzling overtones. The German trombone has a much more rattling sound in the direction of a contra bassoon in lower register.

The normally smaller bore and a bigger bell causes a more conical behavior of the German instrument which makes the air flow and the approach to the instrument different. On the American instrument it’s more about an open feel and pushing the air through the instrument in a controlled way. On the German instrument it’s more important to open up the throat and try to achieve a big resonance space via throat and lunges. That’s the way how you could achieve a big sound.

As the approach to the instrument is different I always sound like I approach the instrument and not necessarily whether it is an German or American style instrument. When I played a German style instrument for a month and I change to an American trombone it still sounds quite „German“ in the beginning as the approach is still the same. It’s also the other way round after playing an American trombone for a month and changing back to a German instrument, it still will sound like an American instrument.

The interesting thing to learn for me was that a different style instrument will teach you the lesson how to approach it in the best way. This „knowledge“ could be kept by yourself and used on different style instruments as well.

I am sure, not everybody will agree on every detail, but I tried to describe a little bit the differences beyond simple technical aspects.

[hornbuilder]

I always find describing sound with written words to be less than perfect. Listing the physical/technical differences at least is a relatively "concrete" notion. People understand the idea of a thinner bell, vs a thicker bell.

Having said that, I would agree with your general comments about the differences between "German" and "American" instruments, regarding sound and response. I found learning to play the Glassl contra also had a positive impact on my regular bass playing. Air use and "focus" from the Glassl transferred to the American bass really well.

[Doug Elliott]

Thank you for that excellent description of the German vs American instruments. It completely agrees with my (limited) experience trying many horns over the decades. I don't own any true German trombones, I missed out on buying one that I really liked, but I actually have no practical use for it in what I do.

[bcschipper]

Thanks, Peter, for the nice description. Somehow, in this case I very much miss a “like” button. (I am not arguing for introducing such a button here as people tend to just press such buttons instead giving meaningful comment.)

[hornbuilder]

Something to consider, too, is mouthpiece choice.

American mouthpieces "work", but tend to make the horn play too "homogeneously". Whereas German mouthpieces really help to bring out the lovely warm, yet clear softer dynamics, and the edgier, yet sonorous louder dynamics.

[MStarke]

Peter/PNeiteler, absolutely love your description!
It is of course subjective, but my experience fits to what you are saying.

And Matthew: Absolutely, e.g. even relatively small American mouthpieces (e.g. 6.5 AL for symphonic tenor) sound unfocused and undefined with bad response on my Kruspe/Heckel/Piering replica. Interestingly there is one exception which works relatively well which is the Yamaha Alain Trudel. I think it has a relatively deep cup, a large throat, but a narrower backbore which might be the reason why it is relatively okay.

[PNeiteler]

Choice of mouthpiece is an important issue on the German style trombone as well.

As the American style trombone has a tendency towards the trumpet whereas the German style trombone trends slightly more to the French horn, articulation of both types of instruments is a major difference. The American trombone has a crisp and cristal clear articulation, the German style instrument‘s articulation is much smoother, less harsh and softer.

Also with respect to the darker sound of the German instrument a good mouthpiece should support to brighten the sound and support to make a clearer articulation. For this reason normally mouthpieces with bowl-shaped cups, longer shafts, more narrow backbore, smaller throats and a longer cylindrical section in the throat generally work better. This also supports sound stability as the pitch center of each note is broader in comparison to an American style instrument. That’s why many players appreciate the German style instrument as slightly more formable in sound with the disadvantage of less stability.

It’s slightly the opposite direction on the American style instrument as the articulation is quite distinct and the sound already quite bright. Normally mouthpieces with deeper cups, bigger throats and shorter and more open backbores work better.

The sound itself of the German style instrument also differs from the American style instrument. The American style instrument has stronger fifths in the overtone structure making it sound in the direction of the vocal „o“. The German style instrument’s overtone structure is stronger in the thirds which makes it sound slightly more like the vocal „ä“ (sound of the „a“ in „Jack“).

I personally prefer mouthpieces on a German style instrument which additionally support strong overtones in the thirds as it makes a clear difference to the American style instrument.

Also the other way round, playing German style instruments with mouthpieces which fits best to American style instruments is a kind of type mismatch. The instrument will sound quite dull and fluffy. In my eyes that’s one reason why a brief testing of a German instrument with one’s own American style mouthpiece really doesn’t work.

In the other direction if I play my preferred German style mouthpieces on American trombones the sound is harsh, spicy and aggressive, also a typical type mismatch.