Small Bore with Big Mouthpiece?

[Leonardcaldera]

Hello Everyone, im new to this forum so this is my first post i ll be making. This page is awesome and some therads have been veey helpful to me.

I play mostly dixieland jazz, My question comes since i am playing a small bore tenor (.500) with a Bach 5gs, it may sound insane but, i played before on 7c and 12c mp and they simply dont work for me, notes cut in between and they make articulation and low register very difficult, adding that i didn't like the sound in the middle register at all.
I ve tried bach 6 1/2al and yamaha 48, and although they slightly imporved what i said before, there still felt small for me.
Then i landed on my current mp, a Bach 5gs, i like the sound in all registers, (although high feels kinda difficult to play) and my articulation got better, my lips feel more "free".
But ever since then i got comments saying that "i should be playing on smaller mouthpieces that match my horn" or "dark sound dosent match the size of the trombone" etc.
So, how true is that of matching the bore with the mouthpiece and why is it so negative to play on big mp on small bores as they say? Should i be changing mp to something small sacrificing comfort?

[Kingfan]

You need to play the mouthpiece that matches YOU on the horn. I had the same problems as you with the "normal" mouthpieces for my King 2B and 3B. Doug Elliott suggested trying a Bach 5 and it really opened up the horn. I now play one of his custom pieces in about the same size on all my small bores. A Skype lesson with Doug can confirm your choice or even suggest a better one.

[Leonardcaldera]

You need to play the mouthpiece that matches YOU on the horn. I had the same problems as you with the "normal" mouthpieces for my King 2B and 3B. Doug Elliott suggested trying a Bach 5 and it really opened up the horn. I now play one of his custom pieces in about the same size on all my small bores. A Skype lesson with Doug can confirm your choice or even suggest a better one.

Thank you! That d be a good idea , I ll ask Doug for a lesson if he has the time, i really struggled to find some mouthpiece that i feel comfortable playing, and when i found one that does, it dosent "match" or "suit" the horn size. I mean, if they say that some mouthpieces are for certain horns, it must have reason, but as i said, i do like the sound i'm getting with a big mp. Thanks for sharing your experience, i ll keep that in mind.

[JacobsianApostle]

Seconded for Doug Elliott. Based on your descriptions you definitely should not go back to the smaller mouthpieces. You just need something with the rim of the 5gs with a shallower cup appropriate for your playing situation. The “dark sound” is from the deep cup, not the rim.

Unfortunately I can tell you from experience that this sort of combination for a small bore is very difficult to find, and you stand to lose a lot of time and money trying to figure it out on your own. Doug could help you understand your needs better and he could make you a mouthpiece to fit those needs.

For reference, I play jazz on a 2B and found myself in a pretty similar predicament to the one you’re in. Doug set me up with an XT104 D D3, which is the equivalent of 3G- sized rim with a cup shallower than a 6 1/2. Low range is better, high range is better, everything is better. My only regret is that I didn’t go to him sooner.

[Vegasbound]

Doug Elliott, make contact with him have a lesson/consultation as others have said

[Matt K]

5GS might be a touch deep but not unreasonable. Some people find that a larger inner diameter of the rim does exactly as you describe: increase flexibility (or make it feel more "free"). If you are among that group, you might notice a slight short-term hit to your endurance but for me that went away rather quickly and I lost nothing. I too have been playing on an XT104N, which is 1.04" inner diameter. The Bach 5GS should have ~1.01" inner rim, so I've been playing on something .03 larger than that and am toying with going to 1.06" at the moment... but on horns such as that I typically go shallower than a 5GS. The deepest I go is anywhere from an "E" cup in Doug's system to usually a "C+", or in Bach terms, somewhere between a little deeper than the "C" depth and the 6.5AL depth.

[hyperbolica]

There are several things to consider. First how does it sound. Dixieland has a sound characterized in part by small equipment. Second, does it play in tune? And third, as others have mentioned, you can combine a big rim diameter with a shallow cup so the mouthpiece feels good and produces the right sound. The Doug Elliott stuff lets you use a comfortable rim to match your face on the appropriate cup to match the sound with an appropriate shank to fit the horn. You don't have to shoehorn your playing into Bach's unnatural sizes any more.

[Doug Elliott]

I am here, and I make my own brand of mouthpieces that help match your needs to your horn and the style of music you play.

My own choice for a .500 bore is my XT series N104 rim, C+ cup, and D2 shank. That is probably too large for you, but it is certainly possible to fine tune the various parts to meet your needs.

Look me up on YouTube to see what I sound like on it.

[harrisonreed]

A 5GS is too deep for the music we usually associate with the small bore trombone. The sound won't be right.

The Doug Elliot C+ cup is what you want. I just played 3 big band sets today with a 2G width, shallow mouthpiece. It works great.

DSC_1079.JPG

[Doug Elliott]

Here's my very first, and last, recordings with the Airmen of Note: 1989 and 1996. Both on very similar mouthpieces, if not the same.

Blues in Hoss' Flat

Lush Life

[Conn100HGuy]

The most important element for selecting the right sized mouthpiece is YOU. I went through a similar search - small bore tenor (Conn 100H) - and landed exactly where you are, a 5GS. Mine happens to be a Gen 1 Wedge 5GS. Like many of us, I accepted the conventional wisdom about smaller mouthpieces extending the high range. In my case, it didn't matter at all. I tried a 12C, didn't get any improvement in range, and couldn't move any air through it. As luck would have it, I was working with a trombone coach at the time and he told me to go bigger. He let me use his Bach 5GS for a couple of weeks and it was love at first blow. For me the 5GS is just right.

[JohnL]

Then i landed on my current mp, a Bach 5gs, i like the sound in all registers, (although high feels kinda difficult to play) and my articulation got better, my lips feel more "free".

I'm seeing two things going on here. One is that the OP's face seems to really like the 5 rim (better articulation, lips feel more "free"). The other is that his ears really like the sound he gets with the 5GS cup. A Bach 5 might fit his face, but it's not going to make his ears happy. Is that "happy ears" sound in line with what more of us think of for trad jazz? Maybe not, but it's his sound.

[Cmillar]

Am using a DE LTN103 with a C+ cup with D2 shank (or D3) on an old King 2B.

Not exactly a 'small rim', but Doug set me up on this last summer after some lessons, and now it's just a natural size. Couldn't imagine playing anything smaller now, and everything just works as it should.

The bonus of getting advice/lesson from Doug: you'll get some real knowledge on how playing a brass instrument really works that'll 'rock your world'...especially if you've grown up with only being exposed to the teaching legacies of the 'Remington school' or the 'Chicago school' of thought.

If so, then the 'Reinhardt school' will be a revelation to you.

[Burgerbob]

5GS should be fine.

[Posaunus]

The Bach 5GS is essentially a Bach 6½AL with a Cup I.D. that is only 0.004" larger (1.004" vs 1.000"), so these two should feel / perform similar. The 5GS cup (volume/depth) may be a little larger than some of us prefer for a 0.500" bore trombone, but for others it's fine. Not really very far from "mainstream."

My recommendation is to ignore the critics who tell the OP to "go small" and keep playing the 5GS.
If at some point he wants to do even better, he should contact Doug Elliott for advice and mouthpiece "fitting."

[Doug Elliott]

I have not seen a 5GS that was the depth of a 6-1/2

[Posaunus]

I have not seen a 5GS that was the depth of a 6-1/2

Even better then!
I was going from Bach's descriptions, not personal observation. (I've stopped playing Bach.)

[TromboneMonkey]

Am using a DE LTN103 with a C+ cup with D2 shank (or D3) on an old King 2B.

Finally threw in the towel on the Bachs?

[heinzgries]

A 5GS is too deep for the music we usually associate with the small bore trombone. The sound won't be right.

The Doug Elliot C+ cup is what you want. I just played 3 big band sets today with a 2G width, shallow mouthpiece. It works great.

DSC_1079.JPG

what brand is the mouthpiece on the pic? Its look great

[JohnL]

what brand is the mouthpiece on the pic? Its look great

Vennture.
https://www.vennture.mp/

[Cmillar]

Am using a DE LTN103 with a C+ cup with D2 shank (or D3) on an old King 2B.

Finally threw in the towel on the Bachs?

All gone! Sold a shoebox worth of mouthpieces last year!

Only own the DE rims/cups/shanks now for both small bore and the F horn.

Can get down to learning how to play now!

[harrisonreed]

A 5GS is too deep for the music we usually associate with the small bore trombone. The sound won't be right.

The Doug Elliot C+ cup is what you want. I just played 3 big band sets today with a 2G width, shallow mouthpiece. It works great.

DSC_1079.JPG

what brand is the mouthpiece on the pic? Its look great

That's my design I did with Vennture. It's called the S1 (for Small-bore Tbn 1 / Lead), and it features a 1.055" ID, rounded and narrow rim profile, shallow cup, and open entrance to the throat. I'm actually not the biggest fan of the blank design but that one was the closest to how I wanted the weight distributed and to get the weight correct. The other blank options are either too heavy or wayyy too light, no matter how to you tinker with the weight slider.