Stupid question about modular horns, can you just build them like Legos?

[ryebrye]

Can you just buy a bell section, valve section, tuning slide, and slide and put it all together and have it "just work" or do you need to have a tech get involved?

Wondering if bargain hunting components over time is a viable strategy to eventually get a good horn.

Are parts generally only compatible between their own brand, or can you mix and match between some? (Edwards bell on Shires valve section, etc?)

[Burgerbob]

Basically, no. Even sometimes parts from the same manufacturer won't work and will need a tech.

[modelerdc]

I’ve done this with several Shires . It work’s generally but some parts will fit better than others. Common problems are tuning slides that are too tight or too loose and Bells that go together but under stress that can induce ringing on certain frequencies. If you like the combination these issues can be fixed by a good repair technician. Slides always fit. Just as with legos you don’t just blindly assemble parts but need to have a plan, with modular horns do your research h and try some before buying. If you don’t know the equipment you are probably better off just buying a standard model

[BGuttman]

Also: parts are not interchangeable across manufacturers. Sometimes even within manufacturer models (e.g. you can't put a Getzen bell on an Edwards system without major modifications).

You can pick and choose among Shires (and Shires Q); or among Edwards; or among Rath. But never the twain shall meet without liberal use of a soldering torch...

[Matt K]

In general, it's always benefited me to have a tech fit the parts, rather than to try to force the parts together, even if they seem to fit reasonably well. Minor difference alignment can cause a horn to play poorly.

There are a few things that are generally interchangeable:

• Some Bach/Edwards/Yamaha slides will work on bell sections from those three, and also will fit on Shires (though the other way doesn't work very well, with a Shires slide on a Bach/Yamaha/Edwards valve).
• Getzen and Edwards tuning slides will typically work with one another of the same type (e.g. an Edwards 350 tuning slide will fit many Getzen large bores; likewise, the Edwards Bass tuning slide is likely to work with a Getzen bass).
• Yamaha medium and large bore tuning slides are often interchangeable, especially between 300, 400, 500, and 600 series.
• Conn slides will often fit on Getzen and vice versa.
• Edwards T327 and T350 parts are all interchangeable.
• Shires medium and large bore components, as well as their "Q" series medium and large bores, are interchangeable.
• Greenhoe, Getzen, Edwards, and Conn share the same leadpipe threads.
• Kanstul leadpipes work on Shires, though not the other way around.
• Bach 36 and 42 tuning slides are interchangeable.

I've been able to try out a ton of combinations by doing what you propose, though I doubt I've saved a tremendous amount of money on it. Very possibly to the contrary. But it was fun! I do tend to have a tech get involved and make sure alignment is good even if parts "fit" together. Typically doesn't cost very much and is better than passing on something that is otherwise a good player.

Even among the above, age of components may be a consideration. Shires, for example, used to have a slightly different tuning slide spec, and so some older valves may not line up well with contemporary tuning slides or bells. The difference is not so great that a tech wouldn't be able to take care of it with minimal effort though, at least in the three older Shires valves I've had. Slide lock nuts (the part that screws the bell section to the slide) can be worn down over time, so even on the same model you may find that something is too loose if it's been worn down out of spec. I've not experienced this very much, I consider that to be fairly rare, although few of my horns have been more than 30 years old.

[WGWTR180]

Many players keep "chasing their tales" putting together Frankenbones. They rarely work.

[harrisonreed]

Many players keep "chasing their tails" putting together Frankenbones. They rarely work.

Well, they might work. But the root cause of being "differently abled" at the trombone isn't what bell or tuning slide you have on your trombone.

The root cause, of course, is not having enough mouthpieces!

[norbie2018]

I've purchased Edwards components for an Edward trombone multiple years apart and they always fit together w/o the need for a tech.

[Matt K]

I'll take a well-made frankenbone over a stock horn any day of the week! I've had way more luck on "frankenbones" than stock horns, but it helps to have access to good techs!

There are some things to consider about what makes a good horn frankenhorn or not, and I do a bit of forethought into what I'm trying to build; I'm not just randomly pulling parts in and hoping they work, and many do bear some kind of resemblance to popular horns. E.g. if I'm building something with Shires 5 or 7 bells, I'll try to go with a more open slide like a TB47 and a 1 leadpipe. Pair lighter, two piece bells with more compact slides, perhaps with a little more "open" leadpipe.

[WGWTR180]

I'll take a well-made frankenbone over a stock horn any day of the week! I've had way more luck on "frankenbones" than stock horns, but it helps to have access to good techs!

There are some things to consider about what makes a good horn frankenhorn or not, and I do a bit of forethought into what I'm trying to build; I'm not just randomly pulling parts in and hoping they work, and many do bear some kind of resemblance to popular horns. E.g. if I'm building something with Shires 5 or 7 bells, I'll try to go with a more open slide like a TB47 and a 1 leadpipe. Pair lighter, two piece bells with more compact slides, perhaps with a little more "open" leadpipe.

But you are Mr. frankenbone. You've tried literally everything in the world. One has to settle on something at some point.

[elmsandr]

Many players keep "chasing their tales" putting together Frankenbones. They rarely work.

They work as well as the thought and planning put in to their construction…. If the plan is what parts do I have/ what did I just find… they probably won’t work.

If you plan and know what you want and align to a design strategy and wait for proper parts, they can work quite well. But the time would probably still be better spent practicing any stock horn.

For me, I’m a much better engineer than a trombone player, the building and fitting is the fun part.

Cheers,
Andy

[tbonesullivan]

A better question would be whether a person purchasing parts to modular horns piecemeal will assemble a horn that is as well-suited to them as one they went through the fitting process with. Getting properly fitted is IMHO the real benefit of going for a modular custom horn like an Edwards, Shires, or Rath.

[Matt K]

I think the odds are more in favor than one might think given that popular parts are popular for a reason. Popular components come up for sale more frequently too, because there are more of them. You see a lot of type 7 Shires bells, for example, which are pretty forgiving, for example. And yeah, maybe you'd end up settling on a 7YMT8 instead of a 7Y, for example, but you're really not that far off from just picking a stock horn like a 42

[MrHCinDE]

Maybe I‘ve been lucky but with nearly all permutations of these parts, I like how the horn plays and it fits together well:

Bell flares: Bach 42 and Shires 2R with adapted fittings
Tuning slides: 2 x Bach 42
Original straight gooseneck and custom rotor F-attachment
Slides: Bach LT42, Edwards 0.547“, Edwards 0.525“ and Bach 50

It isn‘t unusual for me to have parts from four different manufacturers/craftsmen connected together.

The exception is the 0.525“ slide with the 2R bell flare, that doesn‘t quite work for me. That bell likes a lot of air, it‘s relatively heavy for red brass. In general the tenon on the 0.525“ slide is very slightly different to the others so I also have to be much more careful attaching it.

[MTbassbone]

In general, yes, the components can fit together like Legos. However, even if everything lines up enough to connect the components, you may find the need to have the main tuning slide adjusted. In most cases it's pretty easy work for a tech. IMHO that is also a good time to have the valve checked out for alignment and bumpers replaced if necessary.

Slightly off topic: I did exactly what you are talking about with components and "building" horns on my own, although I would stay with one manufacturer. The horns were almost great, but not fabulous. The search went on and on. Lots of money was spent, and there was a lot of frustration over the years. I recently visited two factories to try horns. The manufacturer I chose offered modular components, and I got "fitted" for a tenor and bass trombone. Despite the cost of a plane ticket, rental car, hotel, gas, and food, I can honestly say the trip was 100% worth it. In my mind this is a buy once, cry once situation, although many have small changes over the course of their careers. I am now happy with my gear, and I don't feel the need to mess with any of the other modular options available in the hope of finding something better. I don't even have extra components in the house. Of course YMMV.

[DCIsky]

A better question would be whether a person purchasing parts to modular horns piecemeal will assemble a horn that is as well-suited to them as one they went through the fitting process with. Getting properly fitted is IMHO the real benefit of going for a modular custom horn like an Edwards, Shires, or Rath.

Fittings are great if you pick out a great setup AND you can take it home. I really liked a certain bell on a former teacher’s setup, got the same exact model of bell from the manufacturer…’twas a dud.

[whitbey]

I have 3 Edwards horns that fit together fine mechanically. I did have a tech adjust a few parts. I do have a 547/562 Bach slide and a Bach bass. The slides all fit the Edwards good enough. One of my horns is totally a custom Edwards using an altered 547 valve with all the tubes all changed to 500 bore horn. Because the valve has a 547 receiver, a 547 part was made for the 500/508 slide. So the whole lot from 500 to bass have the same slide receivers. Yes they do fit together, but many combinations do not work. The 525/547 slide on the 500 bell works ok as a back up slide. Hard to play but sounds good. Only better to play when the small slide is in disrepair. A bass slide on a 547 plays ok loud. I would not use it. A 547/562 slide on the bass sounds good, so it works as a back up. The funny one is the 500/508 slide fits the bass bone. I have seen German horns that had a 500/508 bore with a bass bell as a bass horn.Having tried this combination, I can say it sucks. I also have straight pipes for my tenor horns. They all work well too. I have 5 trombones with three Edwards. My bass in from the 1960's before Edwards and I have German Alto. i have had Edwards since the early 1990's. I would say that the Edwards are wonderful easily worked modular horns that let make changes over the years as you need. The best part of Edwards that in my mind puts them above the other brands is the support staff that help fit you to the horn and changes later.