New Bach 42A and Bell-free Bracing

[Garoissimo]

So, I have been considering one of the new Bach Model 42AG Stradivarius models, with the Hagmann valve. In researching a bit I came across this information which has to do with the new Bach 'Bell-free Bracing' on The Horn Guy's site, which is very interesting in several ways. If you look at the photos and read the entire write up on this horn it is very interesting what is described. His modification is also interesting.

Since a lot of people talk about modifying the bell to create more core and projection, and dampen resonance, I thought some folks here might find this an interesting take on a way to do this - I guess too much bracing is bad, and many makers have gone to a single point bracing system to increase natural resonance. This is a concept that has been around for a really long time, over 50 years. But, if what this guy is saying is true then not enough bracing also can have a detrimental effect.

https://hornguys.com/products/bach-stra ... r-trombone

[harrisonreed]

It's true. Designing an instrument is very difficult. I think that's what I appreciate about the 396-A -- it's very adaptable.

When I first got mine (I had to order sight unseen), I was disappointed with the bland response and sound. It was nothing like the model I had played on at work that was the same spec as the previous Alessi axial horn. That horn sparkled. After messing around with the pillars, I realized just how great the 396 actually was, how adaptable to any acoustic environment it was, and just how many horns I'd actually bought in one go.

For that Bach, there may be some situations where having almost no bracing might be good (perhaps in a very open hall). In a small practice room, where the pressure waves hit the wall and go right back into the bell, the bracing wood piece might really help out. I bet it would be very tiring to play that horn unbraced in a group with less than perfect intonation.

[tbonesullivan]

I remember when Edwards first premiered the "edge bracing", and noted that removing too much bracing produced a somewhat uncontrollable instrument. More and more I'm convinced that what is good for one horn may not be good for another, even if it's the "same" horn model wise. I have a 42BOF, and I like how it plays, though maybe not quite as much as my 42T.

I also should note that most forget that there IS a third bracing point for the F-attachment tubing: The wrap is soldered to the main brace just a inch or so from the valve. I should also mention that my 42BOF came from the factory with little to no solder on the outer tuning slide of the F-attachment, resulting in them pulling right off. It was repaired but but it just shows the level of attention that seems to plague the Bach trombones these days. That little dowel the horn guys put there may be actually moving some part into a less stressed position that resonates better.

[hornbuilder]

It would have to be under (at least some) stress for it to stay in place. If anything, it would be dampening some frequencies.

[Burgerbob]

I have a Shires Curran model bass, which has less bracing than the normal axial sections. The F attachment bell brace popped a while back, and I had it resoldered recently- it plays noticeably better.

[Matt K]

I actually had "edge" bracing added to my Getzen 1025 when I had a Shires 7YLW8 bell mounted to it. My local techs didn't totally understand the request and left the bracing on to the bell TOO. Fortunately, it plays awesome, and is essentially what this person is doing, but without the wooden dowel. (It is non-modular, which is not something I would ever switch to but... here we are!!)

[Garoissimo]

All very interesting... hey, so what is the deal with Bach 42A and 42B - like 42AG - G is for Gold Brass bell, but what is the difference between the 42A & 42B ?

[elmsandr]

All very interesting... hey, so what is the deal with Bach 42A and 42B - like 42AG - G is for Gold Brass bell, but what is the difference between the 42A & 42B ?

B = traditional rotor
A = Hagmann

Cheers,
Andy

[LeTromboniste]

Yes it's pretty mind-blowing how much difference even tiny changes in rigidity and tension make.

On the bass sackbut I helped design with Egger, the whole bell section comes apart, so the bell is, like on originals, hinged to the bell brace, with a removable pin holding the hinge together. Even just changing how far that pin is inserted in the hinge has an effect on the rigidity of the assembly and the tension, and noticeably affects resonance.

The loops in the bell section when set up in F or D also have a cross-brace, which is not soldered, but held to each side of the loop with a set screw. The cross brace can be taken out altogether. The difference in how the horn resonates and plays when the screws are fully tightened vs slightly loosened is night and day (let alone the difference when the braces are removed).

[Garoissimo]

All very interesting... hey, so what is the deal with Bach 42A and 42B - like 42AG - G is for Gold Brass bell, but what is the difference between the 42A & 42B ?

B = traditional rotor
A = Hagmann

Cheers,
Andy

Thanks Andy! I had wondered if that was the deal!

[Garoissimo]

It's true. Designing an instrument is very difficult. I think that's what I appreciate about the 396-A -- it's very adaptable.

When I first got mine (I had to order sight unseen), I was disappointed with the bland response and sound. It was nothing like the model I had played on at work that was the same spec as the previous Alessi axial horn. That horn sparkled. After messing around with the pillars, I realized just how great the 396 actually was, how adaptable to any acoustic environment it was, and just how many horns I'd actually bought in one go.

For that Bach, there may be some situations where having almost no bracing might be good (perhaps in a very open hall). In a small practice room, where the pressure waves hit the wall and go right back into the bell, the bracing wood piece might really help out. I bet it would be very tiring to play that horn unbraced in a group with less than perfect intonation.

So... $6,000 takes of it for good, eh?

[harrisonreed]

So... $6,000 takes of it for good, eh?

You're talking about what Bachs cost (last check they were $5500-6000)? The answer is no. $6000 plus the extra thousands for someone to properly rebuild it.

[Garoissimo]

So... $6,000 takes of it for good, eh?

You're talking about what Bachs cost (last check they were $5500-6000)? The answer is no. $6000 plus the extra thousands for someone to properly rebuild it.

Oh, no I meat $6,000 for the Edwards 369 AR The more I look and read about it, the more it seems like a really amazing design. I played an Edwards for a couple of years at one point. I know what amazing horns they can be. The 369AR seem like it might be pretty ultimate.

[tbonesullivan]

You're talking about what Bachs cost (last check they were $5500-6000)? The answer is no. $6000 plus the extra thousands for someone to properly rebuild it.

The only Bachs the are priced appropriately are usually the ones being sold as "demo models". Just a little wear, but definitely enough price reduction to cover the needed alterations from factory.

I have never purchased a new or demo Bach that did not need attention for a tech. What a I love is finding out years later that the valve was never set up right in the first place, or that the outer side is factory warped, or that there was actually no solder flowed under a ferrule, and that it was held in place only by the lacquer.