How big a deal is the Remington shank on 88H's?

[ryebrye]

I've seen threads where the consensus is "for best performance, a matching Remington shank mouthpiece is needed" but at the same time mentioning that people got by using some wraps of tape to stop a morse taper from wiggling.

Let's say you've got a lot of morse taper mouthpieces.

If you stumble upon a great deal on an 88H do you pass on it because you don't want to bother with the Remington shank? Or buy it and replace the lead pipe? Or buy it and make do with tape on the shanks?

Could a morse taper mouthpiece with some tape on a decent 88h outperform an average (or below average) 42BO, or is it not going to play better than average until you get the tapers right?

From a math point of view, it seems like if the cost of replacing the lead pipe ($2-300?) is less than the cost of stocking up on mouthpieces, that replacing the lead pipe might make sense.

I can see the appeal of modular screw-together mouthpieces now. Especially when you start to combine the same rim with different cups and different shanks.

[AtomicClock]

When I was young, I played an 88H with its Remington. Then switched to a standard 5G, and never noticed a problem. Maybe I just wasn't sophisticated enough ... but any problem would be pretty subtle.

[Posaunus]

Why do you feel that you need "a lot of" mouthpieces for your 88H?
I (mostly) use one of two (since I tossed the original Remington piece that came with my 1972 88H);
* A "long-shank" (dual-taper) Schilke 51 that I played for years, or
* A Doug Elliott LT setup with a "Conn" Shank.
The Remington taper just works better in the old 88Hs.
No need to dig into the mouthpiece collection for other large-shank pieces.

[MStarke]

I have an Elkhart 88h and an Elkhart 60h, both with original leadpipes and receivers. Having a secure and stable fit of the mouthpiece is not the issue. Probably most of these era receivers are so worn out that modern shanks fit okay.

However as modern mouthpieces go in much further than intended in these receivers, it changes response. Generally speaking I feel it makes the horn more open, but at the same time losing control and response at varying degrees. For me on the 88h it works somehow alright (although I normally use a modern slide on it), on the 60h I tape the mouthpiece and currently have a Remington version made.

It would be nice to have an adapter between modern and Remington shape, but I think they are too close to really make this work. maybe anyone has checked this?

[Fidbone]

My lead pipe was replaced by an Elkhart copy but to fit modern mouthpieces!

[Mr412]

I have an Elkhart 88H. I love how the original mpc sounds in it, nicely bright and jazz tromboney, but it's a tad tight on my chops. So I bought a 4G with a Remington shank. Love it! Beautiful, broad sound. Handles well. When I use the horn to double on bass, I use either a Morse-taper Yamaha 58L or 59L with Teflon tape on the end of the shank. Great resonant sound on both, but the 59L is about as big a mpc as I can get a well-saturated sound on. The 60L is too big for me, with too much of an airy sound, as is my Remington-shank 1G and Doug Yeo. Haven't tried a Shilke 51 yet.

[chromebone]

I think the B&S taper (Remington shank) is actually the better taper for mouthpieces than the Morse taper. The Morse taper became the standard mostly because Bach offered a better variety of mouthpieces. Most manufacturers actually had their own taper until the late 60’s early 70’s. Olds, Conn, King and Holton to a certain degree all had different tapers on their large bore horns.

[OneTon]

Doug Elliott’s site cites the optimum condition is for the fit to reduce disturbances and gaps, and there to be no wobble. It goes on to say that “customization . . . can sometimes produce significant improvements an instruments’s pitch or response . . .” Renold Schilke would custom fit a leadpipe to any mouthpiece provided for a fee, and perhaps claimed it was hugely beneficial. Now there exists a trumpet community that prefers a small gap.

I had excellent results with sticking a Schilke 47 mouthpiece into a Conn 88H, that I purchased new, until it was stolen in 1975. Try before you buy. The mouthpiece should not wobble. If the mouthpiece wobbles and you found your forever 88H, lead pipe replacement is not exorbitant. There are too many personal preferences between players, and too much variation between horns to predict which one will play better, even if we weren’t comparing apples and oranges. You have to go try them. Until players reach a degree of proficiency, their preferences may change. They sometimes change anyway. Sorry.

[ithinknot]

It would be nice to have an adapter between modern and Remington shape, but I think they are too close to really make this work. maybe anyone has checked this?

The adapter would start "too thin to be practical" at the end of the shank, and then taper a niente... so, no. If you want both options on an existing mouthpiece, have it turned down for Reeves sleeves.

[AtomicClock]

@ryebrye, since your profile indicates your son is the trombonist, can I assume he is still a young player? In that case, he is probably best following the old advice to play on a middle-of-the-road mouthpiece "until the plating wears off". So if you find a good 88H, get it and a compatible mouthpiece, and don't look back.

This forum can be misleading (and possibly harmful) to people of that age. It is full of freelancers who legitimately double on many instruments, and amateurs like me who act that way without the chops (or gigs) to back it up. The majority of players, especially up through college, have one horn and one mouthpiece. They just don't participate here.

[Finetales]

It kind of matters, kind of doesn't. I had a great 1962 88H for quite a few years and always played it with a normal large shank mouthpiece. No doubt a proper Remington shank would have improved the response and stability, but not enough that I felt not having it was holding me back. Though I no longer own that 88H, I still play my modified 72H with its stock Remington receiver every day, with a normal large shank bass mouthpiece. On that horn especially it really is no problem at all.

[EriKon]

On my '70 Elkhart it's been a huge difference to change to a Remington shank mouthpiece. But I also changed the whole mouthpiece sizes, if I'm not mistaken. Having played a Denis Wick 6BL at first (which didn't really work well at all), to a 5BL (better but still not the right match), to a standard Schilke 51 which worked a lot better, but wobbled, leading to difficulties in response. Also accuracy was hard on days where playing just wasn't as good. After changing to Dougs XT G8 (and my adequate rim size) setup with Conn/remington shank, the horn plays like a dream and even across the entire range. I'm sure this is also a lot due to the right rim diameter, size of cup and and and... But the shank definitely makes a difference too. Nowadays I can't play on a setup that wobbles even just a little bit without getting crazy.

[CalgaryTbone]

I have an Elkhart 88h and an Elkhart 60h, both with original leadpipes and receivers. Having a secure and stable fit of the mouthpiece is not the issue. Probably most of these era receivers are so worn out that modern shanks fit okay.

However as modern mouthpieces go in much further than intended in these receivers, it changes response. Generally speaking I feel it makes the horn more open, but at the same time losing control and response at varying degrees. For me on the 88h it works somehow alright (although I normally use a modern slide on it), on the 60h I tape the mouthpiece and currently have a Remington version made.

It would be nice to have an adapter between modern and Remington shape, but I think they are too close to really make this work. maybe anyone has checked this?

The Brassark sells mouthpieces that use sleeves (in a partnership w/Bob Reeves mouthpieces). You can get a sleeve with the standard taper and another with the Remington fit. They can also alter an existing mouthpiece to accept the sleeves. Then you can use the same mouthpiece on different horns.

Jim Scott

[MStarke]

The Brassark sells mouthpieces that use sleeves (in a partnership w/Bob Reeves mouthpieces). You can get a sleeve with the standard taper and another with the Remington fit. They can also alter an existing mouthpiece to accept the sleeves. Then you can use the same mouthpiece on different horns.

Jim Scott

Thanks, I am aware of that. Right now I have versions of my bass mouthpiece made with Remington shank, so for myself it's more a theoretical question. and as expected somebody confirmed that there wouldn't be enough room for a regular adapter. thanks again!

[ryebrye]

@ryebrye, since your profile indicates your son is the trombonist, can I assume he is still a young player? In that case, he is probably best following the old advice to play on a middle-of-the-road mouthpiece "until the plating wears off". So if you find a good 88H, get it and a compatible mouthpiece, and don't look back.

This forum can be misleading (and possibly harmful) to people of that age. It is full of freelancers who legitimately double on many instruments, and amateurs like me who act that way without the chops (or gigs) to back it up. The majority of players, especially up through college, have one horn and one mouthpiece. They just don't participate here.

Yes, that's right, it's my son who is the player. He's not so young anymore - he's a senior in high school - compared to most players he's still young, but he's been playing for eight years now and is in two bands, the state youth orchestra, his school jazz ensemble, and he frequents the local jazz club jam session to play with the local pros. He probably plays more than three hours a day (on average)

He's planning to major in music. He has a Bach 42bo that he plays and can get a good sound out of, he likes it but doesn't love it. He played a friend's Shires horn at a trombone camp - which I warned him not to do unless he had enough saved up to buy one - he was blown away by how easily he was able to play some of the harder stuff he was working on. So he's been interested in finding a different large bore.

The question about the Conn stuff is because occasionally I'll see one pop up, usually a pretty significant driving distance away. I wanted to know how likely it would be that we'd show up and he'd even be able to evaluate the horn if his existing mouthpieces might not work at all. Most of them that get listed will include some mouthpiece, but it's hard to know ahead of time if it's going to be any good or not (right size, who knows if it's even the right taper... etc)

[CalgaryTbone]

Yes, the tolerances are tight. When I had my large shank mouthpiece cut to accept sleeves, I originally ordered another for medium shank (old Besson euphoniums, etc.). They ended up refunding the money for that portion of the order, since the sleeve was too thin to be stable in the receiver. There is such a small difference between the regular large shank and the Remington taper - it's hard to make an adapter without thinning the end of the mouthpiece like they do for sleeves so the sleeve can have enough metal to be stable and strong.

I played my 88H with a standard Bach mouthpiece most of the way through school and during the 1st years in my job here in Calgary. You get used to it and some things actually are sometimes better. If you're not used to it though, you do notice it. I was about to play a solo piece with a string group here, and a colleague was going to run the tape recorder for me to get a copy of the performance. I dropped by his house to drop off my recording equipment, and he suggested trying his microphone vs. mine. I had my mouthpiece (a Doug Elliott at the time), and I was playing an Edwards at that time, so I had the standard shank. When I was trying to play bits of the Milhaud on his Conn, I was having small accuracy issues, and my articulation wasn't working well. He ran and grabbed a Conn shank, and instantly, it was much more comfortable. I had played that piece in school on an 88H with a Bach mouthpiece without issues, but I realized that I probably had worked much harder on my articulations back then - they were much easier and more intuitive when the taper of the shank fit the taper of the receiver. There's also a different "sweet spot" for loud playing.

Anyway, for the OP, yes there is a difference between how the horn plays on one vs. the other, but it is possible to adapt. I would generally advise someone to play on a shank that fits the instrument.

Jim Scott

[Doug Elliott]

When I was in high school buying my first large bore horn, my teacher had me try a 42B and an 88H - back then those were the only choices. I didn't like the 88H at all, and I still wonder if it was because the shank didn't fit right.

[modelerdc]

the Remington helps the tone center better, which can help with the tendency of the 88H to crack high A flat or G. also the octave E flat and Fs are much sharper requiring more slide adjustment than most trombones when a non Remington taper is used. The Remington taper makes the intonational tendencies much more like other trombones. Some 88Hs have had non Remington tapers jammed into them for so long they no longer wobble, but even these horns play better with a Remington taper. Of course it you have a more modern vintage 88H that's made to take a Bach style shank these points are mute. But for older 88Hs it's well worth the trouble to buy a mouthpiece with a Remington tapered shank.

[Rusty]

A question from a slightly different angle…I have an Elkhart 62h bass that has had the leadpipe removed, and I’ve been playing either standard Shires leadpipes or a Brassark BH62, but all Morse taper. Would there be any benefit to using a Remington shank leadpipe and mouthpiece over the current setup?

[WGWTR180]

A question from a slightly different angle…I have an Elkhart 62h bass that has had the leadpipe removed, and I’ve been playing either standard Shires leadpipes or a Brassark BH62, but all Morse taper. Would there be any benefit to using a Remington shank leadpipe and mouthpiece over the current setup?

I'm thinking it will change the sound and feel of the instrument. Better or worse??? If you're used to your setup I'd leave it alone. If you have money to experiment then go for it.