6.5AL vs. 12C

[oldsambassador]

Comebacker here.

My first thought was to go with a 6.5AL, however, I really didn't sound that great on it. I decided to try the 12C that came with my horn and it was a revelation. Intonation, sound quality, just everything was better.

Maybe after a while I will be able to use the 6.5 or maybe not. I wonder if my chops have changed or they just need strength built up?

[Posaunus]

Unfortunate truth: A Bach mouthpiece (or any standard small-shank mouthpiece) will not fit properly into an Olds Ambassador. Olds receivers and mouthpieces used a slightly different taper, with a smaller-than-standard shank, so non-Olds mouthpieces will not insert as far into the receiver and may "wobble."

If you don't want to put up with that discrepancy, your options are limited. If your Ambassador is an Olds A-20 (with F-attachment), it originally came with an Olds 1 mouthpiece - roughly the same Cup I.D. as a Bach 12 or 12C, but quite different otherwise (Cup shape and volume, Rim shape) as well as Shank size. If you have an Olds A-15 (no F-attachment), the original mouthpiece was an Olds 3 (smaller than an Olds 1). Olds mouthpieces are sometimes available on the used market and are inexpensive.

I decided that I wanted a bigger, better mouthpiece for my Olds (Recording) trombone, and use a Doug Elliott setup (separate Rim, Cup, and Shank) with a Shank that matches the Olds taper. This costs more, but works very well for me. If you are interested, Doug can advise you.

My personal opinion: The 6½AL mouthpiece is too big for your Ambassador; I'm not surprised you don't sound great. And I think the 12C is a bit too small (as well as the wrong taper). But if it works for you, stick with the 12C until you find it limiting.

[tbdana]

My first impression on reading your post was that as a recent comebacker your chops just aren't strong, flexible, or focused enough at this stage of the comeback, so naturally you sound better on the 12C because it kind of helps you along. As you get better and stronger, you may find the 12C limiting instead of helpful.

I know nothing about the taper, so I won't address that. But I do agree with Posaunus that the 6.5AL is too big and the 12C is too small for the Ambassador. I personally would use a size somewhere between 7C and 11C, leaning more toward the 11C. I think both the 12C and the 6.5AL are outside the optimal size range for that particular horn, and despite your "revelation," you may eventually find both to be limiting.

[Bach5G]

When I bought a 42B in the late 70s, it came with a 6 1/2 AL (large shank, of course).

[oldsambassador]

Excellent info. Thanks folks!

[Posaunus]

When I bought a 42B in the late 70s, it came with a 6 1/2 AL (large shank, of course).

In other words, an appropriate medium-large mouthpiece for a large-bore (0.547") tenor trombone.
Not so much for a small-bore tenor like an Olds Ambassador.

[Bach5G]

When I bought a 42B in the late 70s, it came with a 6 1/2 AL (large shank, of course).

In other words, an appropriate medium-large mouthpiece for a large-bore (0.547") tenor trombone.
Not so much for a small-bore tenor like an Olds Ambassador.

I could have made that clearer.

[ghmerrill]

Unfortunate truth: A Bach mouthpiece (or any standard small-shank mouthpiece) will not fit properly into an Olds Ambassador. Olds receivers and mouthpieces used a slightly different taper, with a smaller-than-standard shank, so non-Olds mouthpieces will not insert as far into the receiver and may "wobble."

This is true, except ...

If you're willing to put in a bit of effort, you can make a Kelly plastic mouthpiece fit the Olds taper. This is what I've done with my '47 Olds Standard. I won't go into the details of how I did this (it involved a drill press, though a lathe would have been better), but I sanded down the Kelly 12c shank to fit in the Olds leadpipe. It was a quick and economical solution for a horn I rarely use. There's really nothing wrong with a Kelly 12C -- in your personal choice of color.

Otherwise, you can just get an appropriate shank/mouthpiece from Doug Elliott.

[Doug Elliott]

The 6-1/2 "size" is not inappropriate for an Ambassador, but the backbore and the shank size won't do you any favors. Both just make it harder to play, especially for a beginner or somebody coming back to playing.

[oldsambassador]

The 6-1/2 "size" is not inappropriate for an Ambassador, but the backbore and the shank size won't do you any favors. Both just make it harder to play, especially for a beginner or somebody coming back to playing.

I think I will rock the 12C for now. Wait for my chops to strengthen and then look for a piece that is more appropriate for my horn. Maybe hit you up for something.

[SteveM]

Unfortunate truth: A Bach mouthpiece (or any standard small-shank mouthpiece) will not fit properly into an Olds Ambassador. Olds receivers and mouthpieces used a slightly different taper, with a smaller-than-standard shank, so non-Olds mouthpieces will not insert as far into the receiver and may "wobble."

My personal opinion: The 6½AL mouthpiece is too big for your Ambassador; I'm not surprised you don't sound great. And I think the 12C is a bit too small (as well as the wrong taper). But if it works for you, stick with the 12C until you find it limiting.

I believe the taper Olds used is the standard Morse taper. It is simply a little smaller than standard. The Bach mouthpiece probably won't wobble, it just won't go in as far as it should. This does slightly impair response and intonation. You are best off with an Olds mouthpiece or, better yet, Doug Elliott can provide the correct shank size. I don't think 12C is too small for an Ambassador (bore is dual bore .485/.500). In the days when the Ambassador was introduced as a student horn, many trombone players used 12C and 15C mouthpieces and sounded great.

[oldsambassador]

Now to find an Olds mouthpiece!

[RichardJ]

Hi, I’m 25 and just starting with trombone. I bought a used ysl354 for now but it didn’t come with a mouthpiece. What should I start with? It has a 0.5 bore. Do I go with the Bach 6 1/2al that so many people recommend or what do I start with?
I played clarinet for 15 years and bassoon for 7 years.

[UATrombone]

Hi, I’m 25 and just starting with trombone. I bought a used ysl354 for now but it didn’t come with a mouthpiece. What should I start with? It has a 0.5 bore. Do I go with the Bach 6 1/2al that so many people recommend or what do I start with?
I played clarinet for 15 years and bassoon for 7 years.

Standard (stock) mouthpiece for YSL-354 is Yamaha 48 small shank.
It's Yamaha's equivalent to 6 1/2 and, usually, it's cheaper than Bach.

[officermayo]

I think I will rock the 12C for now. Wait for my chops to strengthen and then look for a piece that is more appropriate for my horn. Maybe hit you up for something.

I have a Olds 12C you can have. PM address.

[HappyAmateur]

I'll piggyback on this thread since I'm brand-new to the forum and it's semi-appropriate to my situation...

I'm an adult trombone beginner who played trumpet (with glorious mediocrity) throughout school. Perhaps as a nerdy mid-life crisis, I got myself a used Yamaha-354 a month ago and have really enjoyed learning it, practicing nearly every day.

I don't have an instructor yet (and don't plan to get one until I know this hobby is going to stick; it's still the honeymoon phase, for sure), but I did stumble across and purchase "The Trombonists Handbook" by Reginald Fink, which has been a good resource.

My horn came with a used Bach 12C. My question is: when should I move on to a different size? And to what? Fink recommends only making gradual changes and sticking to a new size for at least a month (and recommends a full year) before changing again... but he doesn't really say when it's good to make the move, and is actually a bit contradictory at times, which I suppose is because situations can differ. I feel like I need something bigger now to help with low register tone (but I also don't want it to be a crutch).

[BGuttman]

There are some noted professionals who play the Bach 12C. It's a size. If it fits your embouchure, then you don't need to change.

Most of us now seem to start on a Bach 6½AL or 7C (approximately the same size). It's a little bigger.

Should you stay with the 12C? At this point in your playing it's going to be difficult to make that call. I'd say keep at it with the 12C until you discover some aspect of your playing it's not letting you accomplish. Most likely you will find difficulty playing the notes at the bottom of the bass staff, while everything else is fine. When that's the case, try the 6½AL.

The Reginald Fink book is a good resource, but a terrible method book. I'd recommend finding something else to teach you to play. If you are cheap or have no access to a music store, you could go to IMSLP and download the LaFosse Method. The first book should help you get the basics under your fingers. There are other methods on IMSLP, but they are intended for when you have enough basics to play from G bottom of the bass staff to G 3 lines above the bass staff (about 2 full octaves).

[HappyAmateur]

Thanks for the kind reply.

Yes, I was a disappointed that the Fink book didn't have many drills in it, but still happy with the purchase for the wealth of overall knowledge. The intonation chart he's got was a revelation and confirmed what my ears were hearing on certain notes (and I was thrilled to learn it wasn't just me).

For better or worse, I've gotten the beginner trombone book that my kids' middle school uses. I've got a 6th grader who's a 1st year bassoon player, so we can play together. And I've got a 5th grader who wants to play trombone when he goes to 6th next year, so I'm basically using his equipment right now (which is how I justified this endeavor to my wife).

For now, the beginner book is enough of a challenge, but I suspect I'll be looking for more in another month or two. Thanks to my ancient trumpet skills, my range is well-beyond true beginners (I'm consistent in the range you described and can go up to the next Bb on good days), and I'm pretty sure my tone is better than beginners too, but my slide positioning is unquestionably beginner.

[LetItSlide]

I played so many hours in high school and college on a Bach 6.5AL that it’s my baseline. I don’t prefer it for lead playing with a small tenor but if I’m in shape, I can pull it off and be quite comfortable. But a slightly smaller piece makes that playing easier, naturally.

[LetItSlide]

You might want to try mouthpieces between the sizes of the 6.5 and the 12. Your pick will probably be driven by what best facilitates the type of playing you do. Captain Obvious has spoken.

[HappyAmateur]

Thanks Captain Obvious!

A few days after my last post above, I got a Yamaha 47 which is slightly bigger than a 12. I was ordering an Arban's (spiral; Raph) and got caught by up-sell ads for mouthpieces... clearly I was already thinking about it though so it wasn't entirely an impulse buy.

My tone and range regressed for a few days but after about 10 days with it, I'm now better than I was before on both counts - but that probably has far more to do with getting more practice under my belt than it does with the mouthpiece.