What do you think about during jazz solos?

[tbdana]

I'll preface this by saying that I am by no means a great jazz player.

That said, I'd love to just get lost in the music and let it take me over during a solo, but the truth is that I have a constant narrative going on in my head while I play. Monday I was playing a solo and found myself in the weeds in the last 16 bars. This was what was going on in that empty space in my head that passes for a brain:

"...Okay, nice little interval thing, but I did too many of them, and now I'm coming to the end of the solo and I'm stuck down in the low range without building up to a good ending. How can I save this? Hm. First thing I gotta do is get out of the basement. Let's jump up a couple octaves."

[Plays a dumb lick two octaves higher]

"Well, at least that got me out of the mud. But I'm almost done and this solo is just fizzling out. What to do? Maybe if I play my little triplet lip slur lick on this A7-9 to get some motion back into this."

[Plays triplet lick]

"Yay! I ended on an A! The right note! Lucky. Woohoo!! But, um, I'm sitting on this A and I still have a measure and a half left and no time to do anything with it. I'll just slide up an octave and ride it out."

[Rips up to an A above the staff]

"That was okay, but I still don't feel it's enough to end the solo. Let's go for another octave."

[Rips up to a double-high A]

"Yeah, baby! Made it! Let's end with a statement!"

[Does a little kiss-off of the double A]

"Okay! How was that? Was that too much? Crap, yeah, that was too much. Not enough development near the end and then I went all hot dog? Jeez, that was awful. I suck. Why do I even try to do this stuff? I'll never be any good. I should just stick to being a side-man."

If you want to hear those 16 bars going on during my mental narrative where I'm trying to salvage poor planning, I'm going to try to link to a clip. Hope it works.

Click this: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/vsqba024 ... rfilw&dl=0

So, do you think about stuff during solos, or do you just play? And are you as negative on yourself as I am? (I hope not!)

[tbdana]

“Nope, just you, Dana!”

[Richard3rd]

I'm hopefully hearing the bass player and maybe the piano/guitar. If not, then I'm just aware of the pattern of that style of jazz. 16 bars broken up into four bar phrases and hitting the mark for each one. Lost my place? Take a couple of beats and listen again for the cues from the rhythm section. Then occasionally the nightmare happens, they are lost too.

[AndrewMeronek]

noodle
noodle
noodle
noodle
target lick quoted!!!
noodle
noodle
ummm what now . . .
noodle
noodle
kinda hungry

[JohnL]

ohcrapohcrapohcrapohcrapohcrap

[harrisonreed]

"I wonder how they make the Chinese Food...
...so much better in Massachusetts, and..."
[solo moves into an angsty phrase]
"...why the heck I can't get that kind of food...
... more than 90 miles away from that city??
Is it so hard to cook up a decent egg roll....
... or some lobstah sauce?"

[harrisonreed]

“Nope, just you, Dana!”

Oh, I thought that's what you literally were thinking during your solo lol

[EriKon]

I actually try to think as much in melodies as I can. And melodies can be 8th or 16th note lines as well.

Just came back from a nonet gig where I played around 5 or 6 solos. I mostly tried to think in melody as much as I can because the changes sometimes were pretty wild too. And before I started playing I always try to think about what the music needs right now. Which direction should it take, what can I add that hasn't been there yet, what helps the music? Those are pretty important to me and I constantly have to remind myself of that (as someone with a tendency of playing too much).

[tbdana]

noodle
noodle
noodle
noodle
target lick quoted!!!
noodle
noodle
ummm what now . . .
noodle
noodle
kinda hungry

I think you just described my whole career. Especially the last line.

[boneagain]

wow. I NEVER had the bandwidth in MY brain for this kind of internal distraction.
Yeah, probably part of that was not enough time woodshedding scales and licks.
But brains DO work at different speeds.
I am in AWE of folks who can play like you do AND have cycles left for other thoughts!
Shows a TON of HARD work AND a brain/muscle system that can process all that!

My last "ride" as pretty much what JohnL wrote

[GGJazz]

Hi all.

I aim for a fairly rigorous practice about the tunes where I have to do solos ; so , when I play it live , I just play istinctively , letting the things happen by reflex .

I practice the tunes very deeply , trying to learn everything I can upon them , putting in all the harmonic/ melodic/ rhythmic solutions/ ideas that I am currently developing .
During live performance , I avoid to think, just trying to play the music at the moment.

I try to look for a " good sound " , that could mean both a whole note or 2 sixteenth' bars , as well as the complete solo .
Also , I think that a solo is not only the lines I am playing , but an ensemble performance closely linked to the rhythm section. So , what I am playing must fit into what others are doing , even if I am the " main voice" and it' s me the one " driving the wagon" at that moment .

Regards
Giancarlo

[tbdana]

I aim for a fairly rigorous practice about the tunes where I have to do solos ; so , when I play it live , I just play istinctively , letting the things happen by reflex .

I practice the tunes very deeply , trying to learn everything I can upon them , putting in all the harmonic/ melodic/ rhythmic solutions/ ideas that I am currently developing .

Sounds great. So, what do you do? What does all this preparation look like, especially if you have no opportunity to play the tune with anyone before performing it?

[GGJazz]

Hi again .
Hi Dana.

Well , to me the first thing is to be able to play without sheet , so I learn the melody and the chords progression .
I also practice the chords progression at the piano , trying different chords' voicing , harmonizing the melody , etc.

With the horn , I am usually practicing solos without comping ( play a long , etc) , trying to "listen" the chords progression in my head .

I practice basically 3 steps:

A) putting on the chords progression all the phrases I am working on ; doing this , I do not necessarily think to play a "real" solo . It is just an exercise .

B) I play over the tune in the more melodic way possible , building the nicest lines that I can imagine.

C) I mixed A and B , starting to play something of interesting.

Going further , there are some tunes that I really want to explore deeply , so I play it in different keys , both melody and solo , trying to be fluent at the same level ( of course , not all the 12 keys in the same day) .

I also play at different tempos , as "Confirmation" as slow ballad ; or at different meters , as " All the thing you are" in 7/4 .

When I am fluent on a song , I start to play solos on the given tune many times at day . Long solos , short solos, etc .
Or I pick uo the horn after 3 hours rest , and I start immediatly with the given song , head plus solo .

Of course , sometimes I have to play something right on stage . If the tune is an original , or a standard that I don' t know , I givei it just a look and I memorize the main changes , but I go to play it without sheet .
If the tune is too hard to be performed this way , of course I read the sheet !
To be prepared on this , I periodically pick up some difficult tunes that I do not know at all , and I play over it , trying to go through the piece without stopping , as a sight reading exercise . I do this over a backing track , usually .

So , with this preparation behind me , whel I perform a solo live , I just play and listen to myself and the music around me , without thinking anymore.
This is my way !

Regards
Giancarlo

[AndrewMeronek]

I think you just described my whole career. Especially the last line.

Biology is important.

[Savio]

Oh I wish I could do a solo and improvise. I got panic when I tried 40 year's ago. Everyone was so happy in the rehearsal when the bass trombone finally was improvising. I got confidence. In the moment of truth I got panic. I played something but nobody said a word after

I admire all of you who can improvise Dana!

I did listen Bill Watrous one time live in a masterclass. 10 o'clock in the morning. He could improvise forever alone. Never forget it. Amazing, believe me.

Leif

[AndrewMeronek]

In the moment of truth I got panic.

This is the magic.

[imsevimse]

Hi, Dana! Very Interesting questions. I have also asked this. I've asked great improvisers here what they think WHEN they actually play the solo. The answers I've got has always been how they prepare. Practice scales mostly, and broken chords, arpeggios.

I have wanted to know this because my mind always is empty when I do a solo and after, I do not remember anything. I get frustrated when someone gives me good critics because I do not remember. I have to listen to the recording to know what I did, and when I listen I hate everything about it. I have spent a lot of time to listen to myself just to try accept it is me, because it's not healthy to be too hard to your playing. It is important to be able to listen and be objective about it. That is what I struggle to do. You need to be able to analyze objectively to be your own best teacher.

Lately I have begun to think of the melody while I'm improvising. This means the melody is going on in my head while I'm playing something else. What I play I do not know because I'm listening for the melody, but I like this way better.

I have practiced scales and I can read harmony but I never think of scales and I never think of any licks. I whish I know about how to use such things but I don't. I think my solos are simple and I whish I could play more complex but I do not hear the music like that, and I think I play what I hear. Still I do not know what I'm going to play before I do it because I'm on a different planet at the time.
What I can do is to have some kind of a strategy, but it isn't very advanced. To start easy and to build to third, fourth or fifth chourus if that's my last
one.
Sometimes I have a solo in the first tune, when the audience isn't warmed up. That's a challange. Applauds are then more sparse compared to if it's half an hour in the concert. I try to not reflect on that so much. I still do not know what I've played. I just hope it wasn't too bad.
I would really like to know if anyone knows what they think during a successful solo.

/Tom

[tbdana]

I have to listen to a recording to know what I did. When I listen I hate everything. I have spent a lot of time to listen to myself just to try accept it is me.

Something I struggle with is that I hate absolutely everything I play, every time. I'm extremely critical of myself. It often takes weeks or months, or hearing it dozens of times, before I'll start to think maybe it's not that bad. I know intellectually that not everything I play can be horrible, and I know it's not healthy to be hyper-critical of myself. Yeah, I know, I just can't let go of it.

I sure wish I was the kind of player who could listen to something I played and think, "That was awesome! I am awesome!" but in fact it's always the opposite of that, and it seems that's just who I am. I can't give myself a break. In public I put on a confident air, but underneath it I hate everything I ever do...for a while, at least. Later on I can hear something and go, "Hey, that was actually pretty good." But it's a while before I can get the kind of mental distance that will allow that.

A curse, for sure.

[imsevimse]

I have to listen to a recording to know what I did. When I listen I hate everything. I have spent a lot of time to listen to myself just to try accept it is me.

Something I struggle with is that I hate absolutely everything I play, every time. I'm extremely critical of myself. It often takes weeks or months, or hearing it dozens of times, before I'll start to think maybe it's not that bad. I know intellectually that not everything I play can be horrible, and I know it's not healthy to be hyper-critical of myself. Yeah, I know, I just can't let go of it.

I sure wish I was the kind of player who could listen to something I played and think, "That was awesome! I am awesome!" but in fact it's always the opposite of that, and it seems that's just who I am. I can't give myself a break. In public I put on a confident air, but underneath it I hate everything I ever do...for a while, at least. Later on I can hear something and go, "Hey, that was actually pretty good." But it's a while before I can get the kind of mental distance that will allow that.

A curse, for sure.

It seems we have something in common. I have a post somewhere where I describe how I have practiced to listen to myself. It basically is I magine I'm not the one playing. I try my best to imagine it is a trombone player sitting next to me who takes the solo. I see him get up from the chair and go infront of the band and lift his trombone and then take the solo (any unknown sub). I always do this with my eyes open and while looking to the right. It is a struggle, but I have actually bin able to stare to the right (helps focus) and listen to my own solo and after tell this other self (me) what needs to improve most. A teacher need "to see the trees for the forrest" when he analyze a student or else he will not do good as a teacher.

/Tom

[tbdana]

It seems we have something in common. I have a post somewhere where I describe how I have practiced to listen to myself. It basically is I magine I'm not the one playing. I try my best to imagine the tromboneplayer sitting next to me takes the solo. I see him get up from the chair and go infront of the band and lift his trombone and then take the solo (any unknown sub). I always do this with my eyes open and while looking to the right. It is a struggle, but I have actually bin able to listen to my own solo like this and then as a result I could tell this other self (me) what needs to improve most. A teatcher need "to see the trees for the forrest" when he analyze a student or else he will not do good as a teacher.

/Tom

That's a great mental trick to be a more honest listener to one's own playing.

I tend to judge myself according to some imagined standard of ultimate perfection, or how I imagine the greatest player in the world would play it. Inevitably, I come up short every time, of course. But, you know, my goal isn't to be "okay," but to be able to hang with the best players ever. So I kinda feel I need to hold myself to that standard. But why? I don't play for a living anymore. I don't live in L.A. or NYC. No one expects me to be the best ever. So why be so tough on myself? I dunno, I just am. But I'm going to try your technique of pretending I'm listening to a sub play it, and judge myself a little more fairly. After all, I don't have impossible expectations for other players, I shouldn't have impossible expectations for me, either.

Gee, am I gonna have to pay you for this therapy session?

[imsevimse]

Gee, am I gonna have to pay you for this therapy session?

Hope to be of help. Why be to hard on your self. Not everyone needs that.

/Tom

[BrianAn]

Wrote up some ideas over the course of today on this, ended up being longer than expected, perhaps rambling, but I suppose I’ll share it anyway. For reference I mostly play in the “straight-ahead” idiom; JJ, Curtis, Bird, “standards”, ii-V-I harmony, etc., although I’m sure many of these ideas transcend genre.

I think most of what I’m “thinking” on the bandstand can be boiled down to “play what you hear”, as Chick Corea said. If I hear a new idea on the bandstand that I haven’t heard before, I’ll go for it as best I can, but ideally I’d work out any ideas I hear in my head on my horn while I’m practicing so if I hear them on the bandstand, I can execute them, i.e. what some might call learning “licks”. I think the best way to do it is first find a lick that you’re hearing, then learn it; learning a lick on your horn then force yourself to hear / play it after the fact seems very cart before the horse to me. I believe Nick Finzer, whose YouTube videos were really my first jazz “teacher”, said something like, how can you accurately execute something in your head, on your horn, on the bandstand, if you’ve never played that idea before? Also, writing etudes using the melodies you’re hearing is a great way to channel your ideas in an organized way to execute them well on the bandstand. I keep some etudes over various tunes open on my computer in Dorico and if I hear something, I add to it.

However, I wouldn’t be surprised if, when I was getting started, I was thinking very consciously about what I was going to play, even on the bandstand; stuff like “I have to nail this lick over this ii-V”. Ideally though, you want to reach a point where you can just play without thinking, i.e. playing what you hear.

I suppose one thing I “think” about, but more like “hear and perhaps respond to instantaneously”, is what the rest of the band is doing. What did the previous soloist just play? Should you start off sparse or dense - like Erik said, what does the music need? Sometimes playing the changes / high density is right; sometimes keeping it simple is right; sometimes making things a band effort instead of just the soloist is right.

Perhaps sometimes I’ll keep an ear out for anything the rhythm section might be throwing at me; now, Monk did say “Don’t listen to me, I’m supposed to be accompanying you!”. The soloist should be leading the way, but don’t shut the rhythm section out; they can throw you some cool things to give you inspiration that you might otherwise not have heard and keep things fresh. Sometimes I’ll throw the rhythm section something, like lots of space, a riff, outside playing, etc. and hear what they do with it. That being said, once again in the words of Chick, use mimicry sparsely; you can respond to what the rhythm section is doing without straight up copying them, and vice versa. It can be effective occasionally but corny otherwise.

These days I’ve been thinking about pocket / time because I’ve neglected it but ideally that too should eventually become internal; for now though, I occasionally have to pay special attention to the rhythm section to make sure I’m locked in… which I can do because I’m not thinking about what I’m playing! I try to just let ideas flow out the horn so I can think about other things if needed.

At the end of the day, personally I don’t think you should be thinking too hard about what you’re playing, it should come naturally. Play what you hear; if you hear a melody in your head, just play it; if you hear the rhythm section doing something interesting, play off of that; if you hear something weird, play that. Now, there’s a difference between hearing nothing because your brain is telling you to leave space, versus hearing nothing because you’re caught off guard by weird changes, fast tempos, or haven’t heard enough stuff to have ideas flowing through your head as you play. My goal is to have so many ideas under my slide that, when I don’t hear anything, it’s because of the former.

[Wilktone]

When I practice improvisation I try to focus similarly to how I practice just about anything else. I will spend most of my practice time actively thinking on a particular topic or two, usually using Hal Crook's "How to Improvise" book to draw my topics from. I will spend time trying to incorporate that topic generally into my improv and practice specific exercises that force me to improvise within certain constraints. Before I finish practicing I will specifically forget about all that and play as if I were performing. I've been lazy lately and not really recording myself for later evaluation, but when I begin to hear the topics I've been practicing creeping into that last part of my practice without requiring me to think about it I change up topics.

We can train our minds to focus, just like we train our bodies to handle the physical actions of playing music. If you want to perform with focus on the music you need to practice keeping your focus on a single topic. That can happen in the practice room, such as how I described above, or it can happen away from the instrument (e.g., meditation). Your attention doesn't need to be specifically on the music (e.g., performing mode) to train your focus, it just needs to be a concerted effort to pay attention to what is happening in the moment. As you get better at keeping your attention on any particular topic (i.e., your breathing, playing chord extensions, playing what you hear, etc.) you get better at keeping your attention on whatever you want.

What I find so challenging about this process is that it's easy to make value judgements in the moment, and that risks pulling my focus away from what I want. This is why I should be recording myself more, because it allows me to evaluate later, instead of in the moment. That's also why Hal Crook recommends practicing improvisation utilizing a "play/rest" approach, where you rest more often than you might perform. After you play an idea you rest and consider what you just played and the musical effect. Then while you're still waiting to play again you can consider what's coming up and how to fit your next idea into the practice topic you've chosen.

But I'll let you know when I've got this aspect nailed. I certainly have that inner voice distracting me all the time too. I think it's pretty much universal.

Dave

[Doug Elliott]

All of the stuff in this thread is useful and correct, maybe at different times for each person.
I remember before I could improvise, asking the same question. Improvising ends up beng a stream of consciousness based on everything you have practiced, listened to, and hear in the moment to react to.

The one thing I do that hasn't quite been mentioned in this way is: listen to yourself and react to it. Play a short idea, maybe only three or four notes, then stop and answer it. Nobody wants to hear aimless noodling. Play melodies, question and answer, sequences. All the scales and arpeggios need to be practiced, but only to learn how to get around the horn... not to regurgitate them in a solo.

[tbdana]

The one thing I do that hasn't quite been mentioned in this way is: listen to yourself and react to it. Play a short idea, maybe only three or four notes, then stop and answer it.

I think this is an excellent point. Coincidentally, that is often how I start solos, and how I began the one I referenced in the OP.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/zfk7ngne ... 0zqtm&dl=0

I think that's a pretty common approach, not only at the beginning of a solo but anywhere in it. I'm surprised you were the first to bring it up. Good stuff.

[EriKon]

Another great example of that:

[baileyman]

A
What's the next note?

End of form? Go to B
go to A

B
Take the horn off the chops.

[Doug Elliott]

Yeah there's that.... "Where am I in the form? Did somebody go to the bridge at the wrong time? Did I miss it?"

[imsevimse]

I'll preface this by saying that I am by no means a great jazz player.
...
If you want to hear those 16 bars going on during my mental narrative where I'm trying to salvage poor planning, I'm going to try to link to a clip. Hope it works.

Click this: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/vsqba024 ... rfilw&dl=0

So, do you think about stuff during solos, or do you just play? And are you as negative on yourself as I am? (I hope not!)

You say you are "by no means a great jazz player". I do not agree.

Haven't listened to that lick until now. It wasn't bad at all. Of course your ending with those octaves was more of a show off. I understand your feeling about that. 'Was it too much?". Well, I've herd many solos from great tromboneplayers and not everyone of those solos are their best solo. You do sound great even the times you yourself think you suck. You need to do that mental training I do and I'm sure the subs you meet are great players too so it will be fair.

/Tom

[Fidbone]

Nobody has mentioned listening to and reacting with the rhythm section yet.
Although this can be a burden in some cases especially if they aren’t listening to you

[tbdana]

Nobody has mentioned listening to and reacting with the rhythm section yet.
Although this can be a burden in some cases especially if they aren’t listening to you

I love nothing more than when the rhythm section grabs something you're doing, and then for a minute you all go on a little musical adventure. That's the best feeling.

[mgladdish]

I can't say I have any kind of inner monologue whilst soloing. I'm very much in it at the time, ears wide open to the rhythm section. I absolutely do think explicitly about what I'm going to do before it starts though, e.g. whether to raise or lower the intensity when I come in, whether particular phrases have caught my ear that I want to develop during my solo. Sometimes I'll get surprised/annoyed if the rhythm section take it somewhere else/ignore the direction I'm trying to go (delete as appropriate), but there's no conscious dialogue that goes with it.

My brain's full enough with trying to match melodic development with changes and with what the rhythm section's doing, there's not enough capacity to also second guess itself as it goes!

[Geordie]

Did a solo a couple of days ago. A couple of the comments here popped into my head: play a phrase and answer yourself, and use different octaves. Like someone else earlier, I think about what the opening phrase might be as the band gets closer to the solo. Once solo starts it’s usually all in the moment.

[TomWest]

The words to the song. Then I “sing” through my horn.