WilliamLang wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2024 12:24 pm
Some students have great ears and can just fit the notes in. Most (like myself, honestly) had to learn a lot more context to gain that feel. The science behind tuning can help people, cause everyone is different!!! Saying "well it's natural, you have it or you don't, so just do it" is a gatekeeping pedagogical method. We need tools to help everyone at every ability level.
It's like seeing a natural swing a baseball bat - great for those that can do it, but even most pros need guidance here and there to learn how to approximate being natural.
I agree with all of that. Insisting on one and only one method of teaching and learning anything is unreasonable. My interest - what I had to learn to do, for sure - is in developing the hearing, developing an internal pulse, etc. Hopefully I help every student get there in whatever way works for them.
Sometimes part of that process is recommending an equipment change - usually smaller somewhere, though not always - that will help with the tactile sense of pitch center and tone production.
tbdana wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2024 11:17 am
(As an aside, I have a trombone friend who is also a piano tuner (not getting into that mess), and he has a great ear. He teaches students of all variable pitch instruments to play in tune by first listening to eliminate "beats" in the chord and then to identify particular harmonics that pop when the note is in tune. When I first watched his presentation I couldn't pick out those harmonics at all, but after a few minutes of concentrating it suddenly jumped out and revealed itself to my ears, wherein it became incredibly obvious.) There are many methods for teaching playing in-tune.)
Burgerbob wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2024 12:33 pm
without making a solid pitch center on the instrument, there's no actually matching pitch, even when it's straight up and down on the tuner.
This.
GabrielRice wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2024 1:52 pm
Sometimes part of that process is recommending an equipment change - usually smaller somewhere, though not always - that will help with the tactile sense of pitch center and tone production.
What are your thoughts about different materials? I've seen some posts about sterling leadpipes improving Edwards, and I was surprised by my own experience with nickel.
TomInME wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2024 11:49 pm
What are your thoughts about different materials? I've seen some posts about sterling leadpipes improving Edwards, and I was surprised by my own experience with nickel.
At the leadpipe my strong preference has always been yellow brass. For me, it seems to be the right balance of overtones to have the solid core I want in the sound. I think that has to do with the overtone structure. I've wondered about putting a nickel pipe in a standard Bach yellow brass slide to liven it up, though.
As to how the whole instrument is put together, there are combinations that seem to have stood the test of time and worked. Softer metal bell (red brass, gold brass) with nickel handslide, ala Holton or the classic Bach GLT combination. King small bores with nickel slide tubes, yellow crooks, and yellow bells.
Gabe, my dear old friend, I'm going to agree with one insight and disagree with another. I hope you don't mind. Firstly, you've solved a puzzle I've struggled with for years. Shires and sound. You've nailed it....players with a strong established sound concept can sound great on a Shires, but other ,mostly young players, can fail to create a good sound on a Shires. They seem to get sonically lost in all that fancy metalwork and make what I call a 'plastic' sound. Second part to follow....
Now my disagreement... My feeling is very much that the old trombones, Conn, Bach and perhaps Holton, had quite a wide slot. I learned my craft on these instruments. They were not always attractive at first meeting, but if you worked at them, you could find the core, the vibrant center of the sound. They made you work to create that core BUT they allowed you to 'muscle' the pitch to play in tune...if you had that pitch in your head anyway. Over the last forty or so years, bass trombones have become more and more slotted, less and less flexible, superficially easier to play but harder to move the pitch around. You have to be very accurate with the slide, or you will sound out of tune. The easiest area to adjust this is the leadpipe, but you have to know what you are trying to achieve if you want good results.
All this seems to be the opposite to the way Gabe is seeing things, but I may be just feeling things in my own way.
Hmmm. I'm not sure you disagree entirely. I agree that they can have wide appearing slots to the player, but that the sound is really only in one very specific spot. But I'm not one of the greatest either!
To touch on equipment a bit more, as I am no pedagogue: I think that the idea that instruments fall into one of two camps (colorful, interesting vintage sound, but harder to play; versus easy to play without quirks but with a boring sound that lacks pitch center) is overly simplistic. As Aidan said, some horns manage to be somewhere in the middle...but even that still isn't an accurate depiction of the differences between horn to horn. It's not a zero-sum game; some instruments have the wonderful vintage sound AND modern playability, others have neither, and others are somewhere on between in both categories. My 72H with independent Yamaha rotors is easy to play with predictable intonation with no weird quirks, has tight-ish slots, AND has an interesting, colorful sound.
In these kinds of discussions, at least one person always brings up the trope that the horn doesn't matter at all. And while the player is obviously by far the most important factor in the system, it is still a complete system and it's foolish to deny that different instruments sound different in the hands of the same player. Of course, the high-level pros we've been discussing can sound great and sound like themselves on anything, but why would they play something that makes their job difficult when they can play something that makes it easy? (This includes the valve setup on a bass trombone, by the way.) Equipment DOES matter...the player just matters a whole lot more. I've noticed there is always pushback when someone (like Aidan) goes through lots of horns, as if it is their deficiency that they can't just pick one and stay with it. Sam Burtis said "pick the right tool for the job" so many times on the old forum, and he was right every time.
But, for every player, the ratio how much they prioritize ease vs. sound is different. Some prefer the ultra-ease of a Shires etc. and feel that the boring sound is an acceptable tradeoff, while others only care about the sound and will deal with an instrument that's hard to play to get it. I think most players (including students) are somewhere in the middle...they want a horn that won't fight them, but they still want it to make a cool sound.
Anyway, I digress on that point.
I agree with Chris and Aidan that in general vintage horns have wider slots that are harder to center, and narrow sweet spots, and modern horns have tighter, less flexible slots but the sweet spot is easier to find.
I think one of the most in tune musicians ever was Ella Fitzgerald. If I can ever play the telescoping brass pitch approximator in tune as well as she sang in tune…
Obviously an inner brain thing not a “theory” of intonation.
Finetales wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2024 6:10 pm
To touch on equipment a bit more, as I am no pedagogue: I think that the idea that instruments fall into one of two camps (colorful, interesting vintage sound, but harder to play; versus easy to play without quirks but with a boring sound that lacks pitch center) is overly simplistic. As Aidan said, some horns manage to be somewhere in the middle...but even that still isn't an accurate depiction of the differences between horn to horn. It's not a zero-sum game; some instruments have the wonderful vintage sound AND modern playability, others have neither, and others are somewhere on between in both categories. My 72H with independent Yamaha rotors is easy to play with predictable intonation with no weird quirks, has tight-ish slots, AND has an interesting, colorful sound.
In these kinds of discussions, at least one person always brings up the trope that the horn doesn't matter at all. And while the player is obviously by far the most important factor in the system, it is still a complete system and it's foolish to deny that different instruments sound different in the hands of the same player. Of course, the high-level pros we've been discussing can sound great and sound like themselves on anything, but why would they play something that makes their job difficult when they can play something that makes it easy? (This includes the valve setup on a bass trombone, by the way.) Equipment DOES matter...the player just matters a whole lot more. I've noticed there is always pushback when someone (like Aidan) goes through lots of horns, as if it is their deficiency that they can't just pick one and stay with it. Sam Burtis said "pick the right tool for the job" so many times on the old forum, and he was right every time.
But, for every player, the ratio how much they prioritize ease vs. sound is different. Some prefer the ultra-ease of a Shires etc. and feel that the boring sound is an acceptable tradeoff, while others only care about the sound and will deal with an instrument that's hard to play to get it. I think most players (including students) are somewhere in the middle...they want a horn that won't fight them, but they still want it to make a cool sound.
Anyway, I digress on that point.
I agree with Chris and Aidan that in general vintage horns have wider slots that are harder to center, and narrow sweet spots, and modern horns have tighter, less flexible slots but the sweet spot is easier to find.
Very well put !! Just to be clear, I'm not saying that Shires horns have an uninteresting sound, and I don't think Gabe is either. I'm saying that in sonically underdeveloped hands, they can sound bland, but I've heard amazing playing at the highest level on Shires horns.
You're right finetales, I go for easier these days, but I tend to sound the same whatever I play on. Some equipment makes that sound easier than others. Nothing makes me sound better, but some things make me sound worse !!
The one factor that took me a loooong time to adjust to are the wide slots on my German Thein basstrombone. A huge difference for me between a Bach, Shires, Yamaha and this Thein. I discovered that I could spund pretty ok, but way off tuning wise. I really had to relearn and discover the whole range on this horn. And still learning….
@Blast: what do you do to keep playing on pitch? Or, what would you tell students?
Wilco, scales, arpeggios and critical listening.
Regarding Thein bass trombones, I've never owned one but have blown a few, including Ben's and have spoken to the Thein brothers about them. They were very very keen that I tried their trombones with their mouthpieces, and boy were they right. The mouthpieces transformed their instruments. Great trombones. When I swapped trombones with Ben v D whilst messing about, he sounded the same on my Rath and I sounded the same on his Thein. We laughed at that. It saved us both time and money.
Thanks and Yes! Matching with a Thein mpc is crucial. It took me some time to find the right Thein mouthpiece, because I like the rim a bit bigger then they offer. I now use a doug elliot rim on a Thein BM.
blast wrote: ↑Sun Dec 15, 2024 6:44 am When I swapped trombones with Ben v D whilst messing about, he sounded the same on my Rath and I sounded the same on his Thein. We laughed at that. It saved us both time and money.
The other bass I liked very much (my first) was an early R9DST with a fixed bell. Perhaps shouldn’t have sold that one . But then I wouldn’t have landed on this great Thein.
Sesquitone wrote: ↑Sun Dec 15, 2024 9:14 am
All trombone students (not just bass) should watch this video from time to time. Good pedagogy.
Link for the uninitiated:
Dr. Bilal actually teaches where I went to school, but I didn't get the privilege of studying with him. Crossed paths with a few times, he's a great player and pedagogue.
A couple of other thoughts:
#1 I think there's a difference between knowing how things should sound in the audience, vs knowing how that sounds from behind the bell.
#2 "play as relaxed as possible" may be a recipe for letting the horn make whatever sound it wants, rather than directing the horn to make the sound you want. It could be that some players don't realize that they can manipulate the color produced by their instrument.
GabrielRice wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2024 7:51 am
I am of the considered opinion that too many of the bass trombone students I see rely too much on the independent valves rather than the slide...
...Sometimes I think it's valuable when one of my students needs to leave their instrument at a shop for several days to be repaired, so that I can lend them a single-valve Bach bass trombone that they then need to wrestle with for sound and intonation.
These are your students and not just trombonists-in-the-wild you have observed?
I would think it should not require a horn to go into the shop for an opportunity to arise to teach better slide use.
Make it the assignment... "For next week, do this etude without ever using first position"... or whatever it is they are relying on too much.
(I haven't read all 67 posts in this thread. If you've already heard this... you're hearing it again!)
GabrielRice wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2024 7:51 am
I am of the considered opinion that too many of the bass trombone students I see rely too much on the independent valves rather than the slide...
...Sometimes I think it's valuable when one of my students needs to leave their instrument at a shop for several days to be repaired, so that I can lend them a single-valve Bach bass trombone that they then need to wrestle with for sound and intonation.
These are your students and not just trombonists-in-the-wild you have observed?
I would think it should not require a horn to go into the shop for an opportunity to arise to teach better slide use.
Make it the assignment... "For next week, do this etude without ever using first position"... or whatever it is they are relying on too much.
(I haven't read all 67 posts in this thread. If you've already heard this... you're hearing it again!)
Most of the bass trombone teaching I do is to tenor trombonists who double. I have them do etudes, scales etc however they want the first time then not using the first valve the second time. This is to teach them fluency in the 2nd valve. I see them relying on the F valve far too much and not using the Gb valve alone. I also get them to use the slide much more. They want to solve every riddle with the valves. 99% of the time I only use 2 valves for low C and B. Other than Bb I basically don't use 1st position when playing bass.
As for the idea of having to play the old Bach while the Shires is in the shop, I think that's great. I've recently gotten out this derelict Conn 80h SPEC that I have and put it on a stand in my practice cube. The response is lightening fast and the sound is so colorful and fun that I find that when I'm in a rut with my large tenor it really helps to just pick up the Conn and blow a few notes to get that feel and response back in my mind/body. Instantly makes things better on my large tenor.
Kris Danielsen D.M.A.
Westfield State University and Keene State College
Lecturer of Low Brass
Principal Trombone, New England Repertory Orchestra
2nd Trombone, Glens Falls Symphony
Kdanielsen wrote: ↑Thu Dec 19, 2024 12:39 pm
Most of the bass trombone teaching I do is to tenor trombonists who double. I have them do etudes, scales etc however they want the first time then not using the first valve the second time. This is to teach them fluency in the 2nd valve. I see them relying on the F valve far too much and not using the Gb valve alone.
What is the advantage of using the Gb valve more than the F valve?
I also get them to use the slide much more. They want to solve every riddle with the valves. 99% of the time I only use 2 valves for low C and B. Other than Bb I basically don't use 1st position when playing bass.
Kdanielsen wrote: ↑Thu Dec 19, 2024 12:39 pm
Most of the bass trombone teaching I do is to tenor trombonists who double. I have them do etudes, scales etc however they want the first time then not using the first valve the second time. This is to teach them fluency in the 2nd valve. I see them relying on the F valve far too much and not using the Gb valve alone.
What is the advantage of using the Gb valve more than the F valve?
I also get them to use the slide much more. They want to solve every riddle with the valves. 99% of the time I only use 2 valves for low C and B. Other than Bb I basically don't use 1st position when playing bass.
Why do you avoid first position?
I don't know if there is an advantage in using the Gb valve more, but I certainly see that most students almost never use it. I just want them to think of the option when it's a good idea instead of never (thus the etude practice I outlined).
For me personally I use the Gb valve alone more than the F valve. F/C in 2nd just feels better than in 1st. I like how they respond better. I also prefer D in either valve alone to D in first. All that adds up to not using 1st position much. Just a personal technique preference. I'm tall and I've got really long arms so long positions don't bother me much.
Kris Danielsen D.M.A.
Westfield State University and Keene State College
Lecturer of Low Brass
Principal Trombone, New England Repertory Orchestra
2nd Trombone, Glens Falls Symphony
What’s the saying by that famous trombonist, “you got two valves, why not use both!”. I think there’s something to be said about teaching or thinking about the valves as options and options with consequences. With those consequences being a small change in sound, difference in feel or an awkward slide motion.
Something I don’t think I’ve seen mentioned in this chat at all is using and staying within the valves. I’ve had some success playing some of the nasty 16th note runs in the Kyrie by just staying in the F valve. For example Bb-C-Bb-A-B-C all in the valve. I think Bollinger and Aharoni mention this but not many others
brassmedic wrote: ↑Thu Dec 19, 2024 2:15 pm
What is the advantage of using the Gb valve more than the F valve?
Why do you avoid first position?
I don't know if there is an advantage in using the Gb valve more, but I certainly see that most students almost never use it. I just want them to think of the option when it's a good idea instead of never (thus the etude practice I outlined).
For me personally I use the Gb valve alone more than the F valve. F/C in 2nd just feels better than in 1st. I like how they respond better. I also prefer D in either valve alone to D in first. All that adds up to not using 1st position much. Just a personal technique preference. I'm tall and I've got really long arms so long positions don't bother me much.
Yeah, that makes sense. On my setup, I don't notice any difference between F and C in first vs. second. I'm in the "don't use the Gb valve alone very much" camp. I just never felt it provided any advantage for me. I do find that F and C in 6th speak and sound much better than those notes with either valve though. It's funny because I have seen players that avoid 6th position like the plague, and I never understood why.
Here's an example I think we all know. I would take all the notes at 45 in first position. Is there a reason anyone would chose to move the slide around more but still use the valves just as much?
Sleigh Ride.png
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Only issue with your idea is that tuning F in 1st makes the C sharp while tuning C in 1st makes the F very flat. I usually tuned my F attachment so F is in tune and I play the C with the slide out just a bit.
I would agree that this is one case where the F valve is superior, but there are times you may want extra slide space to adjust the tuning of F and C, hence using the Gb valve.
Bruce Guttman
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra
"Almost Professional"
BGuttman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 19, 2024 10:31 pm
Only issue with your idea is that tuning F in 1st makes the C sharp while tuning C in 1st makes the F very flat. I usually tuned my F attachment so F is in tune and I play the C with the slide out just a bit.
I would agree that this is one case where the F valve is superior, but there are times you may want extra slide space to adjust the tuning of F and C, hence using the Gb valve.
I said all in first position, not all in the exact same spot. That would sound horrible.
I also tune the F and play the C a bit further out.
Yeah, that makes sense. On my setup, I don't notice any difference between F and C in first vs. second. I'm in the "don't use the Gb valve alone very much" camp. I just never felt it provided any advantage for me. I do find that F and C in 6th speak and sound much better than those notes with either valve though. It's funny because I have seen players that avoid 6th position like the plague, and I never understood why.
I think the more that you avoid the valves, the more different those notes sound, the less reliable they are, and the less confident you are in them. Acoustically, notes on the G-flat valve should sound better than the F valve - it's shorter! But for many players those notes are worse, because they spend so little time on that valve.
I understand that doublers don't have the time to learn completely different patterns and usually aren't playing complicated lines down low - the extra valve is mainly there to make low C/B easier to reach. But as someone who fell in love with bass at an early age and was lucky enough to get an independent while still in high school, I used the valves as much as possible so that they would sound as close to an open horn as possible. And it helped a ton for playing the bottom part in a brass quintet and some of the advanced big band stuff written in the past 20 years - there are some patterns that would be incredibly awkward otherwise and/or require a lot of jerking around past the bell. I know the alternatives and use them when they are better suited, but see little/no need to avoid the valves just because "they sound different" - I consider it part of my job as a bass trombonist to make them sound the same.
brassmedic wrote: ↑Thu Dec 19, 2024 9:43 pm
Yeah, that makes sense. On my setup, I don't notice any difference between F and C in first vs. second. I'm in the "don't use the Gb valve alone very much" camp. I just never felt it provided any advantage for me. I do find that F and C in 6th speak and sound much better than those notes with either valve though. It's funny because I have seen players that avoid 6th position like the plague, and I never understood why.
This is a large part of why I find G tuning for the second valve more useful - the alternate positions it provides are further away from the ones on the first valve than they would be on a Gb-tuned second valve, so it is more often advantageous to choose the second valve alone.
I admit I'm little out or on the side to have any real insightful information in this topic. But I would advice any serious, young people that want a career to get an independent bass trombone. I remember I played the vaughan williams tuba concerto in my last exam long time a go. That independent was so good to have. Even in the 3rd or 4rt bar when it starts a run from pedal F then Gb. And up. And the 3rd movement. Can be done on a small bore but...
One misunderstanding many beginners have is that an independent bass trombone is bigger than the dependent and the single trigger. They are the same bore.
In a professional orchestra I believe many have both a single and a double trigger? I don't need it but miss my old Bach independed. Still have the bell. Late 70thies.
Savio wrote: ↑Fri Dec 20, 2024 1:16 pm
I admit I'm little out or on the side to have any real insightful information in this topic. But I would advice any serious, young people that want a career to get an independent bass trombone. I remember I played the vaughan williams tuba concerto in my last exam long time a go. That independent was so good to have. Even in the 3rd or 4rt bar when it starts a run from pedal F then Gb. And up. And the 3rd movement. Can be done on a small bore but...
One misunderstanding many beginners have is that an independent bass trombone is bigger than the dependent and the single trigger. They are the same bore.
In a professional orchestra I believe many have both a single and a double trigger? I don't need it but miss my old Bach independed. Still have the bell. Late 70thies.
Leif
In a pedagogic view there is some options to consider. How old you are, how many year's have you been playing. Where do you want to go. So many factors involved.. I have been teaching kids for 35-40 years. And you have to learn one thing and then go to the next step. And it all take time...
So the single, dependent, independent all have their mission. But I think the dependent will fade out.
TomInME wrote: ↑Fri Dec 20, 2024 10:06 am
I think the more that you avoid the valves, the more different those notes sound, the less reliable they are, and the less confident you are in them. Acoustically, notes on the G-flat valve should sound better than the F valve - it's shorter! But for many players those notes are worse, because they spend so little time on that valve.
I understand that doublers don't have the time to learn completely different patterns and usually aren't playing complicated lines down low - the extra valve is mainly there to make low C/B easier to reach. But as someone who fell in love with bass at an early age and was lucky enough to get an independent while still in high school, I used the valves as much as possible so that they would sound as close to an open horn as possible. And it helped a ton for playing the bottom part in a brass quintet and some of the advanced big band stuff written in the past 20 years - there are some patterns that would be incredibly awkward otherwise and/or require a lot of jerking around past the bell. I know the alternatives and use them when they are better suited, but see little/no need to avoid the valves just because "they sound different" - I consider it part of my job as a bass trombonist to make them sound the same.
I don't think one should avoid the valves, but I do think some players go out of their way to do gratuitous valve tricks that could just as easily be accomplished by moving the slide. The danger is that if this is done to extremes, it just doesn't sound like a slide trombone anymore, which is fine if that's the style they're going after, but not so good if they're trying to develop an orchestral sound.
brassmedic wrote: ↑Fri Dec 20, 2024 2:36 pmI don't think one should avoid the valves, but I do think some players go out of their way to do gratuitous valve tricks that could just as easily be accomplished by moving the slide. The danger is that if this is done to extremes, it just doesn't sound like a slide trombone anymore, which is fine if that's the style they're going after, but not so good if they're trying to develop an orchestral sound.
I'll admit that seeing someone use their valves above the third partial is somewhat puzzling to me...
brassmedic wrote: ↑Fri Dec 20, 2024 2:36 pm
I don't think one should avoid the valves, but I do think some players go out of their way to do gratuitous valve tricks that could just as easily be accomplished by moving the slide. The danger is that if this is done to extremes, it just doesn't sound like a slide trombone anymore, which is fine if that's the style they're going after, but not so good if they're trying to develop an orchestral sound.
Part of the problem here is that as slide trombone players, some of us anyway have had it banged into our heads that we have to be able to sound like a valve player. I spent probably a decade trying to practice out that glissy sloppy sound that is kind of characteristic of lazy trombone playing.
Then I get a couple of valves and go crazy, maybe just because I can. I like to play the slide, but I like to sound like I don't have one. I do play a lot of Gb and Db in flat first position, especially if they are going by fast. But if it's a slower note where the sound quality is going to be noticeable, I prefer 5th position. It took a while to find where some of those "outer" positions actually lie, but they do sound better.
brassmedic wrote: ↑Fri Dec 20, 2024 2:36 pmI don't think one should avoid the valves, but I do think some players go out of their way to do gratuitous valve tricks that could just as easily be accomplished by moving the slide. The danger is that if this is done to extremes, it just doesn't sound like a slide trombone anymore, which is fine if that's the style they're going after, but not so good if they're trying to develop an orchestral sound.
I'll admit that seeing someone use their valves above the third partial is somewhat puzzling to me...
I have found one use for the valve above 3rd partial: I will play a C4 in T1 when I have a page turn so I can free up my right hand to move pages.
Of course there is the "stupid human trick" of playing a Bb scale (starting on Bb3) in 1st using the valve...
Bruce Guttman
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra
"Almost Professional"
Personally I wonder if it would be more beneficial to stop thinking of the valves as a way to play more alternates but like how horn players use a double horn, or how string players approach repeated notes on their strings. Sure there is some overlap but the utility and alternative sound can be used all over. I was personally taught by a pro in a lesson to use the 3rd valve low Bb during the chorale of Tchaik 6 for its sound. There’s also the trick of using the F valve to play the Bb-C-Bb triplet in the Nielsen or the Bb in fifth during some of Symphonic Metamorphosis and staying outside of 3rd position for most of it. I’m also a younger player here (sub 30s) and a lot of my colleagues do the 16th note Ds in the creation in first position with either one or both valves. Is that laziness? Maybe, but also they sound clean and uniform with the rest of the excerpt
Maybe I’m weird about this but I think having multiple valves makes playing the outer positions easier, like I can stay outside there for longer, sort of like hand positions on a stringed instrument, instead of leaping up and down the string a ton I’m moving only 1 fret up and a string over
To be clear, I'm referring to in-the-staff and below.
What you do with your valves and/or 6th & 7th position above the staff is best kept in private...
TomInME wrote: ↑Fri Dec 20, 2024 5:33 pm
To be clear, I'm referring to in-the-staff and below.
What you do with your valves and/or 6th & 7th position above the staff is best kept in private...
As am I for the most part, I think really anything above it just becomes redundant since everything is already close
Sure, I think it's redundant for the first two valves. But I don't know about BigBadandBass's mysterious third valve.
BigBadandBass wrote: ↑Fri Dec 20, 2024 5:01 pm
I was personally taught by a pro in a lesson to use the 3rd valve low Bb during the chorale of Tchaik 6 for its sound.
BigBadandBass wrote: ↑Fri Dec 20, 2024 5:01 pm
I was personally taught by a pro in a lesson to use the 3rd valve low Bb during the chorale of Tchaik 6 for its sound.
Sure, I think it's redundant for the first two valves. But I don't know about BigBadandBass's mysterious third valve.
BB&B is talking about horn rather than trombone at that point.
AtomicClock wrote: ↑Fri Dec 20, 2024 6:03 pm
Sure, I think it's redundant for the first two valves. But I don't know about BigBadandBass's mysterious third valve.
BigBadandBass wrote: ↑Fri Dec 20, 2024 5:01 pm
I was personally taught by a pro in a lesson to use the 3rd valve low Bb during the chorale of Tchaik 6 for its sound.
As an "older" player looking to get a bass there is a lot of information to unpack in this thread. I am starting to understand the basics of the different valve setups, and which ones I may want to delve into but still where to start. I do know on the thread subject of valves and when to use them I was always thought to know the whole horn and use the best combo to make you job the easiest! In of the words you should be able to use the 5-7th positions as needed.
hyperbolica wrote: ↑
Part of the problem here is that as slide trombone players, some of us anyway have had it banged into our heads that we have to be able to sound like a valve player.
OMG, why? I NEVER had that banged into my head. I went to great lengths to NOT sound like a valve player.
hyperbolica wrote: ↑
Part of the problem here is that as slide trombone players, some of us anyway have had it banged into our heads that we have to be able to sound like a valve player.
OMG, why? I NEVER had that banged into my head. I went to great lengths to NOT sound like a valve player.
Only thing I ever had banged into my head is not to smear notes (i.e. hide the sound while the slide moves -- with obvious exceptions).
Bruce Guttman
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra
"Almost Professional"
hyperbolica wrote: ↑
Part of the problem here is that as slide trombone players, some of us anyway have had it banged into our heads that we have to be able to sound like a valve player.
OMG, why? I NEVER had that banged into my head. I went to great lengths to NOT sound like a valve player.
I definitely did, and I'll bet you did too to some extent or no one would want to listen. Glisses and slop between trombone notes isn't forgiven like fingers on a guitar string or extra sounds on a cello. It's a style choice when it's intentional, but the sloppy stuff is what I'm talking about. That's what lip slurs are for.
. But then I wouldn’t have landed on this great Thein.
in T1 when I have a page turn so I can free up my right hand to move pages.