Struggling with long improv phrases

[tbdana]

One of the things I love about the bebop players I admire is that when soloing on up tempo tunes they can just rip off long lines of 8th notes that seem to go on forever. Like 8 bars at a time, or even longer, forever. It allows them to develop ideas and just keep going without having to stop and take a breath, interrupting the flow of the solo.

I want to do that. I've been practicing it.

But I suck at it.

First, I'm usually focusing so hard on what I'm playing and am about to play (I am not a natural or gifted or highly educated improviser, so it takes all my concentration) that I have no brain cells left to scream at me, "Hey dummy! Take a gigantic breath here!"

Also, as someone pushing 70, try as I might I can't muster the amount of air I used to be able to suck down.

I've tried circular breathing, but I can only circular breathe when holding a note; I cannot do it in the midst of a phrase. And because I have chronic sinus congestion issues it's never dependable. I have to use it very strategically and only when I feel good.

So, my reason for posting is to ask you this question: Got any drills, advice, inspiration, wisdom, or psychology that will get me to the point where I can routinely improvise for 8 bars without having to stop and breathe?

Thanks. I know this is a bit esoteric and kind of a "first world problems, poor, poor you" thing, but I'm sure someone in this amazing group must have something helpful to offer.

[mgladdish]

I've been mulling on how to answer this for a little while. I don't think there are any easy answers other than the obvious (get good at circular breathing, play higher and more quietly so your breath goes further, although from the snippets you've posted on there it sounds like you're already doing both of these). But what works for me is to just take short a short breath, just a crotchet's worth, between phrases. If it's done in places that make musical sense then you don't really hear it.

The musician who I think plays the most interesting and longest lines out there still takes short breaths where needed. E.g. (Jump to 4:35 and 6:20 if you just want the long phrases). What makes them work IMHO is there's a real continuation of the phrase/idea before and after the breath that ties it together. It's another one of my bugbears - playing licks falls into this trap as more often than not players will exhaust the one lick, take a breath, then play another. There's no continuity there, so the gap is glaring. But active thematic or rythmic development in a solo draws the ear to the next line so it sounds like a musical whole.

On the flip side, I can get annoyed with piano solos where they keep the lines going and going without any pause for minutes on end. Let the lines breathe!

[AndrewMeronek]

One of the things I love about the bebop players I admire is that when soloing on up tempo tunes they can just rip off long lines of 8th notes that seem to go on forever. Like 8 bars at a time, or even longer, forever. It allows them to develop ideas and just keep going without having to stop and take a breath, interrupting the flow of the solo.

I'm not a huge fan of this approach in general. I think that a notable problem with this "long line of 8th notes" approach is lack of rhythmic variation. That said, rhythmic variation can be achieved with "long line of 8th notes" by varying how accents are placed. Charlie Parker was great at this.

I do like players who can play long phrases. However, I am definitely not an authority on how to effective practice jazz improvisation. It's not the strongest side of my playing. I do think that the basic ideas fall into the same camp as how to construct a good melody, in general, from a composition standpoint, starting with finding ways to balance repetition and variation with the different elements of a melody: pitch sequences, rhythmic sequences, articulation patterns.

So: maybe one way to practice this is to start with a simple snippet, and over the form of a tune, vary exactly one element in as many ways as you can think of; then vary a different element, then practice combining these variations in different ways?

[Wilktone]

First, I'm usually focusing so hard on what I'm playing and am about to play (I am not a natural or gifted or highly educated improviser, so it takes all my concentration) that I have no brain cells left to scream at me, "Hey dummy! Take a gigantic breath here!"

I'm not sure if any of this will connect for you, but here are some of my thoughts.

Would you say that if you had a pre-written phrase going that far and were ready with your breathing that you can make the lengthy phrase?

If so, then I would suggest you practice with more silence between phrases on purpose. Part of the point of this practice is to help you learn to use rests as a musical device when improvising, but it also allows you to evaluate what you just played and think about what comes ahead. So if you're practicing to play longer phrases, rest longer before you play and remind yourself to take a fuller breath. Over time, practicing with conscious effort on taking a bigger breath for longer phrases becomes natural and you don't really need to think about it so much.

If it's more of a matter that you just don't have the lung capacity any longer, that's normal as we age. Rather than constantly fighting against this, think about ways you can take short "sips" of air in the middle of a phrase in order to make your phrases longer. Using extra silence while practicing, think about what's coming up ahead and improvise a phrase that has a moment or two in the phrase where you can catch a quick sip of air. Maybe this involves a staccato note or two where you can stop the blowing for a moment. Curtis Fuller comes to mind as a player who was able to string together what might seem like short phrases into a musical effect that comes across as a longer phrases.

And you're already aware that playing softer will help you play longer phrases. During those rests while you're practicing improvisation remind yourself to play a little quieter, if you're not already pacing your air this way.

Maybe some exercise like swimming, hiking, or jogging might help? I often feel that stretching and some calisthenic-type exercises helps me warm up and loosen my breathing, particularly early in the morning.

I'm curious to hear what clicks for you eventually, please keep us posted.

Dave

[Richard3rd]

Contrary thought here. Extremely long phrases, like writing without paragraphs, or even paragraph long sentences make it difficult for the ear to follow. Musicians are impressed by circular breathing and extremely long solos without a breath, but the average audience loses interest when there is a lack of rhythmic variety. Think of solos like a conversation. We all know people that talk seemingly without taking a breath. Do we like talking to them? No.

[Wilktone]

But sometimes we enjoy a monologue. With improvisation what I work on avoiding is predictability. Long phrases are great, when balanced by shorter phrases.

[Wilktone]

Thinking about this topic made me curious to see how one of my favorite jazz trombonists, Carl Fontana, phrases on a solo I transcribed a while back.

https://wilktone.com/wp-content/uploads ... owcase.pdf

Now you might come up with different delineations for the phrases than I do, but here's my phrase length analysis.

First Chorus
1. 9 mm.
2. 3 mm.

Second Chorus
1. 4 mm.
2. 6 mm.
3. 2 mm.

Third Chorus (1st phrase overlaps from previous chorus 1 m.)
1. 10 mm.
2. 2 mm.

Fourth Chorus
1. 4 mm.
2. 4 mm.
3. 4 mm.

So Fontana breaks up the phrase lengths throughout this solo. The most regular phrasing happens in the fourth chorus, but the rhythms in that chorus also contrast with the rhythmic density most of the rest of the solo. The third chorus has the longest phrase, almost the entire chorus. The first chorus also has a pretty long phrase. There are short phrases in both those choruses that balance out the longer phrase. You might feel that the shorter and more regular phrases in the second and fourth chorus balance out the first and last chorus.

[tbdana]

Hey Dave, thanks for a thoughtful post.

Would you say that if you had a pre-written phrase going that far and were ready with your breathing that you can make the lengthy phrase?

Yes, usually. If you heard my rendition of The Shadow Of Your Smile you may have noticed that I play a 9-bar phrase in one breath. It's moving by fairly quickly, and I was able to take a big breath in front. In fact, I had meant to do that in an earlier phrase but didn't think I had taken a big enough breath so I bailed on it rather than fail on it. But generally speaking, yeah.

If it's more of a matter that you just don't have the lung capacity any longer, that's normal as we age.

Yeah, that's a problem, too. So I'm fighting a war on two fronts, here.

And you're already aware that playing softer will help you play longer phrases.

This is situation dependent. When I'm recording or if I have a good mic on a live gig, I play improvised solos pretty darn softly. This is partly for breath reasons, but also because I have much better facility if I'm playing softer, and I can make fast passages sound smooth, rather than sounding like a machine gun if I have to play them loudly.

But if I have no solo mic, all bets are off and my solos sound completely different. I'd rather play loud and let the audience hear, even if it greatly alters what I can play. So, that's what I do. I frankly don't like my solos when I have to play them loud, without a mic. I'm not that kind of player. I like to stay pretty tightly controlled, and I'm not one to belt out solos.

Maybe some exercise like swimming, hiking, or jogging might help? I often feel that stretching and some calisthenic-type exercises helps me warm up and loosen my breathing, particularly early in the morning.

How much did my doctor pay you to post that? And how did he get you in cahoots???