Trigger low F, large bore tenor vs. bass

[elmsandr]

For my own amusement, I don’t particularly notice this, but will have to take more time on the tenor later to see but two main points for me:

1) I usually use a .562 slide for tenor as I mostly play bass and am too lazy to swap out the whole horn most the time.

2) for secondary amusement, the Holton Monster valve has a 570 ish bore as I recall, and this is humorously the valve that I always feel flays a better F than the Bb side.

Cheers,
Andy

[Crazy4Tbone86]

For my own amusement, I don’t particularly notice this, but will have to take more time on the tenor later to see but two main points for me:

1) I usually use a .562 slide for tenor as I mostly play bass and am too lazy to swap out the whole horn most the time.

2) for secondary amusement, the Holton Monster valve has a 570 ish bore as I recall, and this is humorously the valve that I always feel flays a better F than the Bb side.

Cheers,
Andy

Yes, but you must remember something that is very unique about the Holton TR-140 with the Monster valve. The valve is literally 2/3 to 3/4 up on the gooseneck. Most standard single F-attachments are at the bottom of the gooseneck. Most large bore trombone goosenecks graduate in bore from approximately .562 to .593. The TR-140 probably has a graduation from the .550s up to .580 (assuming that the gooseneck expands slightly in that short portion beyond the valve. While the Monster valve is slightly larger than other large bore tenors, it is actually smaller in bore for that location on the trombone.

I have always been fascinated with the TR-140. When I played it a few times at shows, I was disappointed. However, I have always wanted to buy one and rebuild it with the valve being relocated at the bottom of the gooseneck. I was very tempted to buy the TR-140 that was recently in the classifieds on TromboneChat. I just didn't make that leap!

[Doug Elliott]

Traditional German trombones have the valve higher up on the gooseneck, but I don't know the bore sizes or how that low F plays. Although a long time ago I borrowed one for a short time and as I recall it was very easy to play through that part of the low range.

When you put a .562 slide on a tenor that makes the slide and attachment bores the same, so I would expect that F to behave differently.

I think it's really all about where the 1/3 and 2/3 point nodes occur.
*Edit*
And the precise location where the nodes occur is different in each horn design, and would be affected by how you choose to tune the open horn AND attachment, and probably the mouthpiece choice too.

[Pezza]

I've never noticed a difference between bass, large tenor & medium tenor.

[Kbiggs]

Doug: Do you have a link to the Benny Leonard article?

William: “Andrew’s book”? Which book is that?

[Crazy4Tbone86]

"Andrews Book" is:

The Art and Science of Trombone Teaching by Andrew Glendening

https://www.grothmusic.com/p-64842-art- ... ching.aspx

[timothy42b]

If you lock into a pitch, or "center" on the pitch, you are having your chops resonate with the pitch as determined by the length of the instrument, valve or no. Everyone here would probably agree that you can center pitches on the open horn, and you can center pitches on the F side too. Like you say, you are centered, but under the desired pitch. Likewise, if someone isn't centered or locked in on a pitch, it is highly likely that they are lipping the note to be where they want it, and fighting the slot, "center", tube length, etc.

I think it's more subtle than that. Slightly oversimplified,

Your chops resonate at a fundamental and a range of overtones.

Your horn length determines the pitch of the fundamental and has a rough but far from exact match to that range of overtones.

A pitch "locks in" not just from the fundamental being played but also the contributions of whichever overtones line up best. It seems likely to me that the trigger F effect is caused by those contributions, along the lines of the BP Leonard quote.

[Doug Elliott]

BP Leonard's paper was just two psges that I got from him at an ITF. I retyped part of it to post here.

[Sesquitone]

When you put a .562 slide on a tenor that makes the slide and attachment bores the same, so I would expect that F to behave differently.

I think it's really all about where the 1/3 and 2/3 point nodes occur. And the precise location where the nodes occur is different in each horn design, and would be affected by how you choose to tune the open horn AND attachment, and probably the mouthpiece choice too.

Regarding my ITA Journal article on this exact subject, the citation is Volume 27, Number 2, Spring 1999. I attach the cover page and the first page of the article below for reference—unfortunately, not too readable here. This summarises quite a lot of prototype experimentation and some basic acoustic analyses of tenor trombones that René Hagmann and I worked on in the mid-1990s. Needless to say, the "matched-bore" principle goes against well-established tradition. And we received a good deal of "flack" about that. René went on to develop his "progressive bore" hardware for dual-valve bass trombones, where there is a gradual expansion of the bore through the valves themselves, mimicking the expansion that would otherwise occur in the gooseneck without valves—made possible by his three-duct valve design. The main take-away seems to be that sudden (unnecessary) changes in bore size can cause the kinds on problems referred to: flat and stuffy F2, sharp and uncentered C3, unreliable attack response, and inferior tone quality—as compared with slide-alone tones of the same sound-path length. [And this perceived inferior quality of attachment alternates seems to be one reason why players are a bit reluctant to explore alternative attachment tunings giving more available attachment alternates in the otherwise awkward low-tenor register.]

The quote mentioning putting a (14.3 mm) bass-trombone slide on a "large-bore" tenor (with a traditional "oversized" 14.3 mm F attachment) reminded me of an amusing incident that occurred when I was visiting Mr Hagmann's shop in Geneva when we were working on this project. One Saturday morning, René was demonstrating to me a Bach 42B gold-brass bell with one of his (14.3 mm) valves and F attachment to which he had mounted a (14.3 mm) Bach 50 light-weight slide (just as Doug has suggested). Matching the pitches of slide-alone and attachment F3s with the slide closed, René demonstrated a well-in-tune and full-throated F2 with the slide closed and a very robust C3 (with just a very small slide adjustment for the typically slightly sharp third harmonic). I tried it and found exactly the same results. Just then, Andrea Bandini from l'Orchestre de la Suisse Romande strolled in and René handed him the "new" custom instrument (without explanation)—just to get a professional opinion. Andrea played through some beautiful orchestral excerpts over a wide range of tone colours and dynamics—including an effortless four-octave Bb-major scale from the pedal up to Bb5. And was very impressed with the overall sound—until he looked more closely at the slide, at which point he exclaimed, "Mon Dieu, c'est un coulisse de trombone basse!", and handed it back to René like the proverbial "hot potato". Little did any of us realise at that time that Andrea had just been playing on a "Jay Friedman LT42BOFG" (albeit with a different valve) several years before Bach had produced that model.



.

[Burgerbob]

Lucky for y'all, I'm a bit sick today so I decided to test this out.

I have 4 slides (plus a bass dual bore that I won't try, you can't make me) that fit my 42 with stainless thayer. This is a very good bell section, but I've never been blown away by the low range. It's fine.





stock Corp 42 (.547)
Edwards TCBN with Edwards 2 leadpipe (.547)
LT50 with modern 50 leadpipe (.562)
early stock Corp 50, maybe rebuilt? (.562)

All tests are with my DE XT104.G+.G+8 mouthpiece

All of these have bass crooks, half nickel, half yellow. All fit the bell section with no issues.

I'll admit, I've never plugged my bass slides into my tenor on purpose until now. Use the right tool for the job and all that. I was pretty surprised at how well they played. Easy response, not complete air hogs, still some tenor character to the sound. I can only really tell when I swap back and forth immediately, in my small space and short playing time.

In order of best low F response, tested with a variety of ways:

old Corp 50 slide
LT50
Edwards TCBN
Corp 42

The 42 slide, which is my daily driver with this bell section, is a bit picky about approach to that F. It doesn't sit low for me but it doesn't respond every time.

The Edwards is more even, broader feeling on the F, but it plays better in 6th for sure.

The LT50 is better, more even, less difference between 6th and first.

The barely-Corp 50 slide is very close to being the same in both positions.

Which slide would I choose to play? The 42 slide, almost every time. It is neat how the bass slides even things out, but I'm not about to put in that much work to make a sound that won't fit in with the tenor players around me.

Very interesting test, though, I'd love to try a dual bore .547/.562 at some point to see if things stay as even.

[Sesquitone]

Very interesting test, though, I'd love to try a dual bore .547/.562 at some point to see if things stay as even.

They do! And the valve low register is a nice warm extension of the slide-alone sound down towards pedals, blending seamlessly with the bass. And you automatically keep that nice bright upper register to blend with the other tenors.

Feel better soon.

[Sesquitone]

Doug: Do you have a link to the Benny Leonard article?

If you send me an email note including a convenient postal address, I'd be happy to mail a copy of my ITA Journal article to you (or anyone else interested). Use the following studio email address (not the family one on file).

[email protected]

PS On a well-designed attachment trombone (with any attachment relative tuning), attachment alternates should be the full equivalents of their slide-alone counterparts of the same sound-path length in terms of intonation, tone quality, and attack response. This objective can usually be achieved by making sure (in the design and construction) that there are no unnecessary sudden changes in bore size along the sound path (especially in the vicinity of the valve and within the valve itself)—the necessary ones being inside the hand-slide and tuning crooks. [The latter can be mostly eliminated by using little inserts that Jupiter calls "node stabilizers".] A common construction defect is the inadvertent "gap" inside the slide receiver (causing a little oversized "chamber"). As far as I know, this is not directly responsible for the "flat-and-stuffy F2" and "sharp-and-uncentered C3" problems, but it can cause "wolf tones" in other places.

[Doug Elliott]

I used to have a 42B that I improved, or at least changed, by installing 36 tenons on both the slide and bell, and eliminated that gap with an insert.
The low F was better but I don't remember specifically how it played... I wasn't playing a large bore much at that time.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Changing the tenons to Bach 36 parts is an interesting idea for addressing the “gap issue.” I never considered that as an option.

I have made several Bach 42 gap inserts. They were not perfect because they were still slightly conical, but they do help make the mid and upper register easier with crisper articulations. One pitch that the inserts improved for me is the high A-flat. I don’t remember noticing any changes for the low trigger F. I always drilled holes in them so they could be removed with a crochet hook.

Hagmann makes inserts for the Bach 42 gap. I believe they offer the inserts in a few different bores. I don’t know if the insides of the Hagmann inserts are cylindrical or conical.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Lucky for y'all, I'm a bit sick today so I decided to test this out.

I have 4 slides (plus a bass dual bore that I won't try, you can't make me) that fit my 42 with stainless thayer. This is a very good bell section, but I've never been blown away by the low range. It's fine.





stock Corp 42 (.547)
Edwards TCBN with Edwards 2 leadpipe (.547)
LT50 with modern 50 leadpipe (.562)
early stock Corp 50, maybe rebuilt? (.562)

All tests are with my DE XT104.G+.G+8 mouthpiece

All of these have bass crooks, half nickel, half yellow. All fit the bell section with no issues.

I'll admit, I've never plugged my bass slides into my tenor on purpose until now. Use the right tool for the job and all that. I was pretty surprised at how well they played. Easy response, not complete air hogs, still some tenor character to the sound. I can only really tell when I swap back and forth immediately, in my small space and short playing time.

In order of best low F response, tested with a variety of ways:

old Corp 50 slide
LT50
Edwards TCBN
Corp 42

The 42 slide, which is my daily driver with this bell section, is a bit picky about approach to that F. It doesn't sit low for me but it doesn't respond every time.

The Edwards is more even, broader feeling on the F, but it plays better in 6th for sure.

The LT50 is better, more even, less difference between 6th and first.

The barely-Corp 50 slide is very close to being the same in both positions.

Which slide would I choose to play? The 42 slide, almost every time. It is neat how the bass slides even things out, but I'm not about to put in that much work to make a sound that won't fit in with the tenor players around me.

Very interesting test, though, I'd love to try a dual bore .547/.562 at some point to see if things stay as even.

When you feel better, remember to compare any or all of those tenor combinations to any or all of your bass trombones.

[Kbiggs]

@sesquitone: I didn’t realize it was from the ITA Journal. I’ll pull mine out and take a peek!

[mikeklaas]

This is a fascinating thread from the perspective of someone using an F attachment for the first time and finding intonation difficult while using the trigger. Specifically, I found that when playing F in 6th, then immediately following it with an F in V1, the note would be comparatively very difficult to produce. If I let the note center a semitone flatter with the attachment, the note blows much more freely.

(This is despite the attachment tuning slides being all the way in, and the main tuning slide being pretty far out. I don't have a bass trombone to compare it to.)

It's good to know that this is a common problem and correctable with practice.

[Sesquitone]

This is a fascinating thread from the perspective of someone using an F attachment for the first time and finding intonation difficult while using the trigger. Specifically, I found that when playing F in 6th, then immediately following it with an F in V1, the note would be comparatively very difficult to produce. If I let the note center a semitone flatter with the attachment, the note blows much more freely.

(This is despite the attachment tuning slides being all the way in, and the main tuning slide being pretty far out. I don't have a bass trombone to compare it to.)

It's good to know that this is a common problem and correctable with practice.

This summarises very well the classic "problems" associated with someone beginning an attachment trombone. When I first traded in my peashooter for a Conn 88H, my teacher, Henry Romersa (at Cornell University at the time), instructed me in the conventional technique. First, tune the F attachment so that C2 can be played with the slide not quite falling off the stockings. Then practice the four most useful attachment alternates, F2, E2, C3, and B2—ad nauseam—until they sound (almost) indistinguishable from their slide-alone counterparts in 6th and 7th position. The F2 will at first be very flat and "stuffy". The C3 will be quite sharp and uncentered. But, with endless hours of practice, you can get a good approximation to the notes in 6th and 7th positions. Once that is achieved, avoid those attachment alternates like the plague! [Except for very short (unexposed) notes in rapid passages—if that helps facile slide motion.]

[KingThings]

“The Divine Slide Trombone is the only instrument that in theory can play in perfect tune, but in practice never does.” Good old Socrates nailed it way back in 421 BC.

Whatever challenges we face, at least we are ahead of the piano, where, thanks to modern equal tempering, the only in-tune intervals are the lower octaves and (obviously) the unison notes. (Even the upper octaves are out of tune thanks to the octave stretch necessary to match the bass overtones). Everything else is haywire.

(As an addendum, the present day near-universal application of equal temperament has skewed the interpretation of intervals.....i.e even symphony players produce sharp thirds. Oh well....)

[timothy42b]

First, tune the F attachment so that C2 can be played with the slide not quite falling off the stockings. Then practice the four most useful attachment alternates, F2, E2, C3, and B2—ad nauseam—until they sound (almost) indistinguishable from their slide-alone counterparts in 6th and 7th position.

I just noticed this part.

That practice approach is a large part of the James Markey four part Developing Your Low Register series. It involves glissing down to the note on the open horn then slur to the valve position.

[Slidennis]

Reading it all, I just wonder why F trigger large bore trombones are not all built with a dual bore .547/.562 slide...

I think Holton was perhaps on the good traks about all this...