New slide tube quality??

[WGWTR180]

Curious to see who is making the best slide tubes these days. If you were looking to replace inner and outer tubes for a Bach 50 would you order from Bach? M&K Drawing?? Anyone else?
Setting price aside mainly looking for who supplies the best quality tubes.
Thanks.

[officermayo]

[WGWTR180]

HA!!!

[octavposaune]

Here is my repair tech opinion,

On Conn-Selmer parts.. Any Bach outer is fine, they are within spec, how long they will fair against corrosion is unknown, I have seen a lot of premature corrosion in modern (last 20 years of production)

Inner slide tubes, I USED to use Shires Inners before the bankruptcy and now I cant hardly get parts from Eastman, and you can no longer get Bach length tubes anymore anyways, so thats out

MK drawing, I like his tubes, they are made on an old machine and have a temper to the metal not found on any modern make but very similar to vintage Conn trombone. The outers can be hard to straighten, but once straight they are tough and dont bent easily. This hard temper also sounds different. In my opinion this gives them more focus or center to the sound.

O Malley might be making fine tubes, but I havent sampled any. I hope he makes the stockings to the same OD as vintage Bachs.

So to retube a 50B slide, I would buy MK inners and factory outers with an MK bottom crook in whatever material I wanted

MK bottom crook are also harder tempered than Bach parts so I might anneal the crook before soldering everything on.

Benn

[WGWTR180]

Here is my repair tech opinion,

On Conn-Selmer parts.. Any Bach outer is fine, they are within spec, how long they will fair against corrosion is unknown, I have seen a lot of premature corrosion in modern (last 20 years of production)

Inner slide tubes, I USED to use Shires Inners before the bankruptcy and now I cant hardly get parts from Eastman, and you can no longer get Bach length tubes anymore anyways, so thats out

MK drawing, I like his tubes, they are made on an old machine and have a temper to the metal not found on any modern make but very similar to vintage Conn trombone. The outers can be hard to straighten, but once straight they are tough and dont bent easily. This hard temper also sounds different. In my opinion this gives them more focus or center to the sound.

O Malley might be making fine tubes, but I havent sampled any. I hope he makes the stockings to the same OD as vintage Bachs.

So to retube a 50B slide, I would buy MK inners and factory outers with an MK bottom crook in whatever material I wanted

MK bottom crook are also harder tempered than Bach parts so I might anneal the crook before soldering everything on.

Benn

Hugely helpful.
1 question. Do you think ordering the inners from 1 place and the outers from another will result in a slide with good compression? Thanks.
And FWIW I would possibly be looking re-tube an old Holton 180 slide. Bach tubes have worked in the past fit wise but always seem to change the sound a bit.

[Tbarh]

Jürgen Voigt offers great products.. Tailor made and not too expensive!

[octavposaune]

MK drawing make replacement inner specifically for Bach trombones, mixing and matching tubes is OK as long as the stockings have a fit with outers within about .010".

Every tube has a different sound. Holton inner and outers were fairly soft in my experience with large bore horns. Bach outers have varied, MV era that I have seen have been soft, Early Elkharts were far stiffer, and the last 20 years have softened back up. The inners are IMO where the magic is at. I buy retube slide for the inners all the time. I have built Bach slides with older Shires inners and had great results. Modern Bach inner tubes not as much. Anyways, best of luck!

Benn

[harrisonreed]

Ask Sweeney Brass -- they replaced the inners on my King and the tubes are great. He might tell you where he gets tubes from.

[hornbuilder]

Re slide compression. That is a factor of the amount of space between the outer tube and the stocking of the inner tube. If that dimension is good, it doesn't matter who makes the tube (speaking strictly to the compression issue)

Side note. Not all inner tubes are the same. Bach for example have a thinner wall for the main part of the tube. Shires tubes are thicker, and less of an obvious "step" where the stocking starts. Meaning, Bach tubes have more space between the outer tube and the main part of the inner tube than the equivalent Shires part. This does not change the compression factor at all, assuming they both have the same size stocking.

[WGWTR180]

Re slide compression. That is a factor of the amount of space between the outer tube and the stocking of the inner tube. If that dimension is good, it doesn't matter who makes the tube (speaking strictly to the compression issue)

Side note. Not all inner tubes are the same. Bach for example have a thinner wall for the main part of the tube. Shires tubes are thicker, and less of an obvious "step" where the stocking starts. Meaning, Bach tubes have more space between the outer tube and the main part of the inner tube than the equivalent Shires part. This does not change the compression factor at all, assuming they both have the same size stocking.

Thanks Matthew. Got it. In the past I tried to replace inner tubes only on a Bach 50 as the outers were in great condition. Order Bach inner tubes and they were smaller than the tubes that were being replaced.

[hornbuilder]

Having said that, Bach were making inner tubes smaller OD because Massimo LaRosa wanted it. It was a poor choice. IMO

[Blabberbucket]

At the moment, I would say that MK probably offers the most consistent and easily available option for slide tubes. Shires tubes are acceptable, though I believe they are coming from Eastman and being buffed/chromed in the US. O'Malley (Chicago) will have tubes more readily available in the future. You are welcome to contact us at [email protected] for more information about availability.

There are so many other factors that come into play to produce high quality slide tubes outside of the drawing dimensions of the tubes, though those dimensions are very important.

The choice of raw material dimensions, preparation of the tubing blank, quality and cleanliness of the draw mandrel and die, quality of the draw bench, quality and lubrication of the draw process, etc can all cause dramatic differences in the final surface finish, hardness, roundness, and straightness of the tube. An exceptionally smooth, straight, hard and spring-like, round tube is the ultimate goal. Poor drawing can result in difficult to work with tubes, with waves, mis-aligned stockings, etc.

If desired, tubes can be tempered to reduce hardness or relieve stresses in the tube. I have heard folks say that nickel silver can be heat treated to increase its hardness, but as far as I can tell that is not true of copper alloys (which includes nickel silver).

Straightening tubes after drawing will impact the roundness of the tube - the straighter the tube comes off the draw bench, the less straightening required, the rounder the tube, the better the slide.

The "barreling" process is very important as well, shaping and blending the ends of the stockings to reduce sharp edges. This can improve the overall feel of the slide and reduce the likelihood of "Conn Wear" at either end of the stocking.

The quality of chrome plate is also a HUGE variable. There are chrome platers out there being used by major manufacturers that are applying "decorative chrome" to slide tubes which is significantly less durable and can have a huge impact on the smoothness and feel of the slide. We have tried several before settling on a local option that we can easily work with to ensure the quality and consistency of chrome plating.

The polishing process of the outers after assembly can have a dramatic impact on the "compression" of the slide as well. Many makers use excessive polishing techniques to compensate for issues in drawing, cleanliness during assembly, etc. which will loosen the clearances between the tubes.

A well-drawn outer tube will come off the draw bench with a mirror-like finish. With a little care to avoid scratching the inside surface of the outers during the assembly process, a very minimal amount of polishing will be required to achieve excellent slide action.

O Malley might be making fine tubes, but I havent sampled any. I hope he makes the stockings to the same OD as vintage Bachs.

We are drawing our tenor inner slide tubes with a stocking diameter of .583", a bit larger than modern Bach with clearances similar to other modern manufacturers. After polishing the stockings end up slightly under .582". We experimented with .585" and .580" stocking ODs and settled on .583".

Our outers are drawn to .590" ID and polished as lightly as possible.

The modern Bach 42s that we have in the shop measure approximately .579" at the stocking (not the roundest stockings in the world...), and slightly larger than .590" ID on the outer.