I Killed the Cello Fourm

[robcat2075]

Not intentionally, not directly... but I think I was the catalyst.

From what I can tell, the "Internet Cello Society" forum was created back in the Web 1.0 days by some players who owned a music shop.

Over the decades many active and significant cello players came and went but for the last 10 years or so it had been mostly a collection of regulars posting. Also, the original owner/moderators had become scarce, leaving a few éminences grises to shout down what they didn't like.

They didn't like much. One éminence, a professional player I'll call "Hob", didn't approve of people asking questions on the cello forum about playing the cello, didn't think anyone should be giving advice about cello-playing on the internet and certainly no one should be watching internet videos about it.

"Why aren't you asking your teacher?" was a typical response to inquiries.

Or, "You won't learn the cello on the internet. You need to find a teacher."

And, "If you were really capable of playing that piece, you wouldn't need to ask the question."

It was OK for Hob and the regulars to pose lofty questions to each other, but lesser citizens, no.

Of course, some were vague novice questions, but many were reasonable and specific inquiries that could be answered with nouns and verbs in plain English sentences. No matter, Hob treated all as naive.

A few years ago the original owners handed the forum over to new proprietors, CelloBello.

CelloBello? They give encouraging advice about cello-playing... with videos... on the internet. They must not have examined their new possession very carefully because they made Hob the actual moderator of the forum.

Now he had a license to be dismissive and shut down threads. The first thing he did was to close the forum section specifically for amateur cellists to talk about their amateur cellist experiences. And every new forum member was given the hint that their pesky civilian questions and comments weren't suitable.

After one egregiously rude attack by Hob on a new arrival I sent a note to the "contact" email at CelloBello, pointing it out. I said they needed to clean house at their forum, the moderator wasn't moderate. He certainly wasn't on-brand with how CelloBello presented itself everywhere else.

I didn't get a response to that email but a couple weeks later an announcement went up that the forum would be closing due to "declining activity". I guess that was true. After many years of Hob running people off, there wasn't much going on anymore.

But I don't think it would have happened if I hadn't sent that email. Twenty-five years of cello discussion, poof!

[JohnL]

Sounds like it was pretty much walking dead anyway.

[BGuttman]

Clearly "Hob" missed the point of a Forum like this.

If you make it for pros only, you don't get pros (many are too busy and more not tech savvy enough to participate) and you chase off the amateurs.

We have (since the OTJ Forum days) welcomed the amateurs and beginners. Everybody can contribute something, even if we're not Joe Alessi or Andy Martin. Yes, we get some stupid suggestions once in a while, but that's the nature of an on-line forum. It's the job of every reader to evaluate all suggestions and use what works.

Sorry about the Cello forum going dark. Hope somebody creates a new one more on he lines of what we have here.

[CheeseTray]

Wow Bruce, sweeping assertions... Pros are smart enough to master their instrument but not intuitive enough to type in a forum reply field and click submit? This doesn't strike me as requiring and extensive amount of "tech savvy." Sheesh, I guess I'll go back to being too busy and too backward.

[BGuttman]

Wow Bruce, sweeping assertions... Pros are smart enough to master their instrument but not intuitive enough to type in a forum reply field and click submit? This doesn't strike me as requiring and extensive amount of "tech savvy." Sheesh, I guess I'll go back to being too busy and too backward.

Many of the pros who came up when I did were pretty unaware of computers. Heck, even me as a STEM major barely used a computer -- they were room-sized monsters that required a "nursemaid" to put in your program and get the results back. I don't blame any pro who is the same age as me but doesn't understand computers.

I will say, we've had a bunch of pros here who left because they felt we didn't give them enough deference. I do appreciate any of the pros who choose to post here and make suggestions. If the pros have a sideline (like Doug Elliott with his mouthpieces) I like having them here to promote their wares.

We sure see a lot of younger pros than I spending some time on this Forum. I especially like when they help some of the young students work through their problems.

[tbdana]

I love that this forum is the antithesis of how you describe the cello forum. It's very egalitarian here, and very supportive. I love that. I like groups where people encourage each other rather than using others as a vehicle to make themselves feel superior. Spirited discussions are great, but abuse and condemnation are not. This is a wonderful group in that sense, and I hope it never loses that collegial and conspiratorial flare, and that the Hobs of the world are not allowed to destroy the goodness.

To that end, the mods here do a great and largely invisible job. Bravo!

As for the divisions, amateur or pro, I like having a variety. It's hard to put myself in a category. I think of myself as a former pro, but now I'm an amateur. I still have lots of knowledge and experience from waaaay back in the day, but I also have some very beginner kinds of questions and issues, too. Like, most recently, how to increase my single-tonguing speed.

Sorry the cello forum died a bitter death, but I hope the story serves as a cautionary tale for this place.

[BrassSection]

Never considered myself a pro, but I have learned plenty from this forum. I’ve played with some pros, most answered my all questions in either a positive way, or with some musical humor, be it trumpet, trombone, euph, or tuba players my questions were addressed to. Only direct instruction was from a pro trumpet player that joined me for a Sunday service. Plan was I’d stay on trombone and let him cover the highs. One song really benefitted from dual trumpets so I picked mine up and played it. Afterwards pro told me “Play on the trumpet more when I’m here!” He was open to my suggestion for one mellow song of mixing my euph and his flugalhorn. He said that was a good call. Guess it’s because I’m usually the only brass player I try to “arrange” the best horn for each song.

Would I want to be a pro? Nope, happy with weekly play time with an occasional ensemble, or community band.

Bottom line: Thankful for this forum!

[WGWTR180]

Cellists. LOL They'll slit each other's throats for a gig. At least trombonists can deliver pizza without being persecuted.

[brassmedic]

Oh no, not the cello forum...

willie wonka.jpg

[hyperbolica]

Yeah, you don't dare disagree with the party line around here, or even offer a different point of view. All sorts of things are permitted as long as they come from the acceptable side of the trax.

[tromboneVan]

Yeah, you don't dare disagree with the party line around here, or even offer a different point of view. All sorts of things are permitted as long as they come from the acceptable side of the trax.

Yep

[Matt K]

I very intentionally moved those posts to the litterbox this morning; please do not repost those. The only reason I moved the older post in addition to the most recent ones is that people were finding the need to defend the positions of the admins on this site. The criticism had been left up for months. I don't get offended about peoples opinions about this site and are encouraged to offer direct criticism, particularly if it is constructive. We receive a decent amount of feedback both ways, and much of it is acted upon.

Call it petty tyranny, safe space, or what have you, the intention of the ban on politics inherently and admittedly leaves discussions of the mundane and trivial. In the instances where it is not and they are directly applicable to trombone and music performance, we let threads go on largely until they devolve into pointless discussion that is not aimed at actually convincing whatever other side(s) may exist.

The site's administration is very diverse ideologically. Whatever "side" is permitted to speak longer as a discussion devolves is neither an endorsement nor is "censorship" an effort to promote the "alternative" side. It is merely a human judgement about a fairly arbitrary line. If anything, at least half the time some of these threads are permitted to go on, the net effect seems to be further solidify whatever opinions the original people had, which is obviously massively counterproductive.

[robcat2075]

I'll note that i don't recall a divisive political thread on the cello forum.

They were all rather like-minded in that regard.

But mention the Haydn Cello concerto in D without putting "Haydn" in irony quotes and... you WILL be sorry.

[BGuttman]

Just curious about what is controversial about this concerto? I know it's something we trombonists can steal.

[robcat2075]

Just curious about what is controversial about this concerto? I know it's something we trombonists can steal.

It is not by Haydn!
Yes, it is! The original manuscript was found after WWII!
Anyone with ears can hear that is a fake!
... and so on.


Also remember to use quotes for the famous "Haydn" oboe concerto in C and all six of the "Haydn" Opus 3 String Quartets.

This is not by Haydn...

[Posaunus]

Apparently there are several "spurious" Haydn works. Several less-talented composers (and greedy publishers) wanted to attach themselves to Papa Haydn's notoriety by claiming inauthentic authorship for exposure and profit.

"Haydn" Cello Concerto in D:
"The piece's authenticity was doubted for some time, and at one stage it was suggested that Kraft himself had written it, but most experts now believe that the work is indeed authentic after Haydn's autograph score was discovered in 1951. " [Wikipedia]

"Haydn" String Quartet in F:
"In 1964, musicologists Alan Tyson and H. C. Robbins Landon, proposed from their research that [the publisher] had substituted Haydn's name for that of Romanus Hoffstetter, a minor composer later known for his admiration of Haydn, a move clearly intended by the publisher to increase sales." [Wikipedia]

"Haydn" Oboe Concerto:
"Though commonly attributed to Haydn, the authorship of the concerto has come into dispute. ...
The MGG and the Haynes Catalog of oboe music list the concerto as being the work of Ignaz Malzat." [Wikipedia]

etc.

[robcat2075]

Apparently there are several "spurious" Haydn works...

The weird thing is, if you buy a box set of the complete Haydn string quartets... those fakes will be in there!

They have become beloved pieces and people expect to hear them.

"If it's so easy to fake a piece by Haydn, what's so special about Haydn?" said someone.

[BGuttman]

In my orchestra's library we had something called "Symphony #2 by Haydn". It turned out to be one of the London Symphonies re-orchestrated to include (among other things) a full lower brass section -- something Haydn did not include in any of his 104 symphonies.

[aasavickas]

Deleted

[BGuttman]

...

The admins are small petty people.

...

At 330 pounds, I take exception to that remark

[tbdana]

You know, people say the Beatles didn't write their own stuff, either.

[robcat2075]

You know, people say the Beatles didn't write their own stuff, either.

A few years ago I perused the archives of the NYT for their coverage during the Beatlemania years. Back then "pop culture" for the NYT might have been "Camelot" on Broadway but Beatlemania was irresistible.

Any article mentioning "Beatles", no matter how trivial or tangential seemed to get printed.
The adult gate-keepers were baffled by these seemingly unserious kids somehow being more important than Senators or wars or space capsules.

Articles dissecting the the hair, the fashion, the accents... and the music... poured out. Lots of articles trying to explain why they were so popular, articles trying to explain some reason for the Beatles success that was not the Beatles.

George Martin was often IDed as being the genius behind the Beatles. But have you ever heard a hit song by George Martin? There are none! He did a lot of fine work away from the Beatles, none of it was writing great songs.

Likewise for everyone else suspected of being the real reason for the Beatles.