What is Big Band?

[slidesix]

What is Big Band? Is that Jazz Band?

Back when I was in school--late eighties early to mid nineties--we had something called Jazz Band or Jazz Ensemble. It was 2-4 trumpets, 2-4 trombones, 4-5 saxes both alto and tenor and sometimes Baritone sax. We might have also had a drum set, 1 additional "percussionist", and sometimes a bass player--either upright or electric bass. Sometimes we had a clarinet or a flute, too, or even a Flugelhorn. Oh, and lots of cow belll! In there we played "Charts" that often were written in "Jazz Font". We called this Jazz band. Is this what people refer to as Big Band or is BB something else?

I admit when I hear "Big Band" it makes me think of 1950, and something my grandmother recalled to me when she used to watch the Lawrence Welk show. Was that Big Band?

My aunts and uncles used to talk about something in high school they played in called "Dance Band". This was the 1970s and it seemed to include popular tunes and maybe even some Funk and overall it sounds like what I would call "Jazz Band" or "Jazz Ensemble". So would that also be Big Band or was it something else?

I kind of miss what historically would have been called Jazz from the 1930s and 1940s that you could dance to with a partner. Not much into Free Jazz or Bebop or charts that sound like Whales--but I have an open mind!

[ghmerrill]

Big band/jazz band/stage band/jazz orchestra ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_band

A little bit of Google Search will get you a lot more information.

[slidesix]

I already read that before posting. So, wikipedia is the last word here? Why do we call it Big Band instead of Jazz Band? Was there ever a name change (after '90s)? Or was it always Big Band? Sorry, but Wikipedia doesn't elaborate on that point.

The reason I ask is because until I started reading here and on reddit I never head the term before. Seemed odd. but maybe I didn't get out much! (or maybe I'm too young or too old!)

You're first line makes it sound like the terms are all interchangable. So it seems like I can just keep referring to it as Jazz Band and everyone will still understand what I mean. It just seemed like I went to sleep for 30 years and woke up and suddenly it's no more Jazz band and everyone is using the Big Band term.

Thanks!

[BGuttman]

We were calling it Big Band in the 1950s after Swing stopped being the popular dance music. they also called them Dance Bands. With the advent of Rock and small ensembles we started calling them Jazz Bands or Stage Bands.

[ghmerrill]

It just seemed like I went to sleep for 30 years and woke up and suddenly it's no more Jazz band and everyone is using the Big Band term.

Yeah, something like that can be disorienting. Van Winkle Syndrome. But you can still use "jazz band" and everyone will understand.

[robcat2075]

Although it's not as big as the "concert" or "military" bands that had been the bands of the previous era, It's "big" because it's bigger than a simple band of a quartet or so musicians as one might have found playing dance music in a hotel lounge or bar in the 10s or 20s. Bigger than those.

It's also bigger than the "bands" that followed... the blues bands and rock bands of the 1950s and 60s.

[harrisonreed]

Jazz band:



Big band:

[ghmerrill]

Jazz band:

[video of a jazz combo or "jazz band"]

Big band:

[video of a big band or "jazz band"]

What sayeth the bard? ...

"What's in a name? A jazz band by any other name would sound as sweet."

[Kingfan]

When I hear "jazz band" these days, I think of New Orleans jazz. To me, a big band has 3-5 bones, 3-5 trumpets, 4-5 saxes, at least one drummer, keyboard, bass, guitar. Stage band, different name but same band. Maybe it was called a stage band to differentiate from a marching band a la New Orleans or football season marching band? I don't really care what it is called, I just like playing.

[harrisonreed]

Jazz band:

[video of a jazz combo or "jazz band"]

Big band:

[video of a big band or "jazz band"]

What sayeth the bard? ...

"What's in a name? A jazz band by any other name would sound as sweet."

I see what you're saying but I feel like calling a big band a jazz band is kind of aspirational. You can do an entire big band set and personally do zero improvisation. "Jazz", on the other hand, is almost entirely improvisation.

The music the groups play is different. If we could ask Frank Rosolino, who played in both kinds of groups, he would probably speak with some authority. He had a small jazz group that played jazz, and he played lead in a big band, which played big band standards. They're different.

[ghmerrill]

I see what you're saying but I feel like calling a big band a jazz band is kind of aspirational. You can do an entire big band set and personally do zero improvisation.

Here's a somewhat devil's advocate and somewhat quibbling counter-view ...

Yeah, you CAN do that -- but I don't think I've seen it since sixth grade or maybe early high school. Even the somewhat geriatric "jazz orchestra" I'm in now, and the one I saw this past Saturday, ALWAYS do improv solos.

"Jazz", on the other hand, is almost entirely improvisation.

Disputable (certainly the "entirely" part). Drawing a line in the sand in terms of improv so that you rule out anything over the line as "not jazz" seems to lose some important distinctions regarding what makes jazz "jazz" and different from other genres, though maintaining that any jazz performance should ("must"?) contain some improv may not be excessive. But then most big bands are also jazz bands because they all sprinkle their performances with improv. Many big band charts in fact include explicit improve sections.

Was the Lawrence Welk band a "big band" or a "jazz band" or both? It sure had some excellent improv players in it throughout the years. There's some argument to be made that it was a "kind" of jazz band even if it wasn't primarily improvisational. But then I suppose there's an argument that smooth jazz is a kind of jazz.

The music the groups play is different.

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Depends on the group, the venues, and the occasions. Nothing rigid there, I think.

If we could ask Frank Rosolino, who played in both kinds of groups, he would probably speak with some authority. He had a small jazz group that played jazz, and he played lead in a big band, which played big band standards. They're different.

Yeah, but I think this is largely about vernacular word use rather than precise conceptual analysis. Even then, I do tend to agree with you about the "proper" usage of these terms. I think that's one reason that the guy who founded the band I'm in now insists on referring to it as a "jazz ORCHESTRA" rather than a "jazz BAND".

[harrisonreed]

I see what you're saying but I feel like calling a big band a jazz band is kind of aspirational. You can do an entire big band set and personally do zero improvisation.

Here's a somewhat devil's advocate and somewhat quibbling counter-view ...

Yeah, you CAN do that -- but I don't think I've seen it since sixth grade or maybe early high school. Even the somewhat geriatric "jazz orchestra" I'm in now, and the one I saw this past Saturday, ALWAYS do improv solos.

Every last member of the big band does solos? Or just one or two featured solos per chart?

I guess you can call anything whatever you want, but I thought jazz was understood to be a much more free form of music, and the big band was a much more structured form. I will play in a big band all day, with my nice chart all written out for me. And I'll take a solo or two. You won't see me pretending to play jazz in a combo group with just changes written on some scrap pieces of paper on the floor. It's different music in my mind. A different thing altogether.

[Wilktone]

Cats are mammals with four legs. But not all mammals are cats. And not every cat has four legs.

"Big Band" and "Stage Band" are terms that are used interchangeably and essentially mean the same thing. They are descriptors of instrumentation, not style of music. Not all big bands play jazz and not all "jazz bands" are big bands.

While there are variations, if you purchase a big band chart it's very likely that the instrumentation will be 5 saxes (2 altos, 2 tenors, 1 bari), 4 trumpets, 4 trombones (one bass trombone), and rhythm section (piano, bass, drums, guitar).

Sometimes additional instruments can be added, such as a French horn or two or additional percussionist. If you add enough, like a string section and additional woodwinds it is usually called a "studio orchestra" or something similar.

You can think of "big band" as a term is similar to saying "orchestra." In both cases the style of music performed can be different and the instrumentation can be a little flexible. But they both describe the instrumentation of the ensemble well enough.

A universal definition of "jazz" is another can of worms. I don't think that most would require every single member of the ensemble to improvise, but most definitions tend to agree that improvisation is an integral part of what makes a piece of music "jazz." But it's like the cat, just because there is improvisation doesn't make it jazz and you could argue that not all jazz requires improvisation.

Dave

[AndrewMeronek]

I guess you can call anything whatever you want, but I thought jazz was understood to be a much more free form of music, and the big band was a much more structured form.

Just because it's so much fun, a counterexample "big band" that contains tons of improvisaion:

[JohnL]

jazz in a combo group with just changes written on some scrap pieces of paper on the floor

I don't think a big band can ever be "jazz" in that sense. Even though it incorporates a significant amount of improvisation, there's also a fair amount of "arrangement" going on in the Mingus chart that Andrew posted.

You can incorporate a lot of jazz into the big band format, but if you aren't using the band (both in its entirety and as sections) a fair amount, why are those people there?

[tbdana]

Call it what you like, but the correct term is Big Band.

Jazz Orchestra: In the 1920's, before swing, when jazz was centered on syncopation, they had jazz "orchestras." These were essentially the instrumentation of the big band with other instruments added, like violins, banjo, tuba, etc.

Big Band: The 1930's saw the advent of swing music. The bands that played those didn't have strings or banjos, they had saxes, trumpets, and trombones. They played swing music for dance audiences, and also for listening to on the radio (and later, TV). And because they were larger than the swing jazz combos that had ushered swing into the music lexicon, they were referred to as "big" bands. The term stuck, and has been used to describe that instrumentation ever since, whether they are playing swing/dance music or more modern concert jazz.

Stage Band: This term was developed by educators at schools in the 1970s. As swing evolved to bebop, and as jazz evolved to jazz/rock music in the 1960s and 1970s, schools coined the term "stage band" to indicate that this was not dance music, it was concert music to be played from a stage for a seated audience by a big band. Dance music was "out" and "uncool," but concert music would draw an audience at the schools, so stage band was coined. It was also coined because schools couldn't always field the full instrumentation of a big band, and conversely sometimes had to include more people than in a traditional big band, so "stage band" allowed for flexibility of instrumentation while indicating concert (rather than dance) music.

Jazz Band or Jazz Ensemble: This is a generic term for a band that plays jazz, regardless of the instrumentation. However, again, educators started using these terms in schools to describe Big Bands that played concert music rather than dance music. In that setting, the terms are interchangeable with "stage band." But jazz band and jazz ensemble apply to everything from a trio to a full orchestra, and denotes the type of music played rather than the instrumentation.

What term to use today: Modernly, the correct term for the instrumentation is "Big Band," whether they play dance music (like the Tommy Dorsey Legacy Orchestra) or concert music (like the WDR Big Band or Gordon Goodwin's Big Phat Band). So, if you want to sound halfway intelligent about it, use the term Big Band unless you're referring to a specific school's ensemble.

[harrisonreed]

jazz in a combo group with just changes written on some scrap pieces of paper on the floor

I don't think a big band can ever be "jazz" in that sense. Even though it incorporates a significant amount of improvisation, there's also a fair amount of "arrangement" going on in the Mingus chart that Andrew posted.

You can incorporate a lot of jazz into the big band format, but if you aren't using the band (both in its entirety and as sections) a fair amount, why are those people there?

Yes, you are exactly right!

[ghmerrill]

Every last member of the big band does solos? Or just one or two featured solos per chart?

Most members of the bands I'm familiar with do solos -- though of course not in every piece or in every gig. But "in order for a group to be acknowledged as playing jazz, every member of the group must solo" seems restrictive and off the point.

I guess you can call anything whatever you want, but I thought jazz was understood to be a much more free form of music, and the big band was a much more structured form.

Well, the alternative to rigorously imposed definitions need not be total unintelligibility and chaos.

I guess my point really is that both of the terms "jazz" and "jazz band" are somewhat vague, stretchy, and amorphous. However, even I have my limits. I won't refer to a duo as a "jazz band" ... or a trio ... or a quartet. A quintet ... well, that's getting close and I don't feel uncomfortable calling it a "band," and if it's playing jazz, then a "jazz band" -- improv or not.

[tbdana]

To me, "jazz" is a style of music that incorporates improvisation. But, of course, it doesn't have to be all improvised. There is structure to even the most improvisational jazz, so those focusing on improvisation are drawing a line. And the thing is, no matter where you draw the line, you're still engaged in a process of line-drawing, and reasonable people can draw that line in a different place than others do.

For me, if it's in a jazz style and someone improvises, then it's jazz. I don't care who improvises, how much improvisation there is, or what the instrumentation is. It's jazz.

I play in a band called "Slide," that is four trombones and a rhythm section. I'm reminded of two tunes we play, both written by the same guy. The first is called "For The Cats," and is a beautiful swingy little ballad. There is no improvisation in that tune. It is completely structured, with no solos. OTOH, the same guy has written a tune called "Lancome Gift" that has no notes whatsoever. He has written rhythms and shapes to be played. But there are no pitches, no tonality, and very little structure. To me, both are jazz. And we are a jazz band or jazz ensemble.

Edited to add: tomorrow I am going into the studio to record "For The Cats" as the last tune on my Tribute project, and I did feel the need to add some improvised solos to it. So I will improvise on trombone, and Barry Finnerty (Miles Davis, Brecker Bros., Crusaders, etc.) will improvise on guitar. So, in fairness I did think it needed improv added to it, at least for my project.

[ghmerrill]

... concert jazz.

Yet another interestiing concept.

Stage Band: This term was developed by educators at schools in the 1970s.

I think you're off by a few years. I played in bands being referred to as "stage bands" in the mid-late 60s (possibly a couple of years earlier).

Jazz Band or Jazz Ensemble: This is a generic term for a band that plays jazz, regardless of the instrumentation.
...

What term to use today: Modernly, the correct term for the instrumentation is "Big Band," whether they play dance music (like the Tommy Dorsey Legacy Orchestra) or concert music (like the WDR Big Band or Gordon Goodwin's Big Phat Band). So, if you want to sound halfway intelligent about it, use the term Big Band unless you're referring to a specific school's ensemble.

[Burgerbob]

Some strange answers here to my ears. Jazz band and big band are interchangeable for 18 piece jazz ensembles. 5 sax, 4 trombone, 4 trumpet, rhythm section (with leeway for some things, obviously).

Almost every high school and some middle schools in the US have a jazz band that is going to be in that format.

Rhythm section and a couple melody instruments is a combo.

There are the bands in between those sizes, they could be jazz bands too, but the general term applies to the "big" band.

[harrisonreed]

So it has to do with whether or not it's a student group? Almost all the references here have to do with "jazz bands" being associated with educators or schools.

[ghmerrill]

Aiden's view corresponds to my own historical understanding of that terminology. It's independent of whether it's a student group or something else.

[JohnL]

So it has to do with whether or not it's a student group? Almost all the references here have to do with "jazz bands" being associated with educators or schools.

Including the original post...

To be honest, I've never heard the term "jazz band" used much outside of educational institutions. Groups with that same format outside of education always seem to be a "big band", an "orchestra", or a "swing band".

In an educational environment, it's a "jazz band" because that's where students learn the fundamentals of jazz styles and (in some cases) improvisation. It's possible that the cause of jazz education might be better served if you could have smaller ensembles, but that's not going to happen in public school (a class isn't going to fly with only 5-6 students).

[AtomicClock]

In an educational environment, it's a "jazz band" because that's where students learn the fundamentals of jazz styles and (in some cases) improvisation.

And of course, if the other band is the marching band, it would be silly to use "big band" for the smaller group. It would confuse the parents and administration.

[Finetales]

I think the answer to "what is a big band" depends on if you are talking about modern or historical usage.

I would define a modern big band as an ensemble that plays primarily (but not necessarily exclusively) jazz, and comprises 4-5 trumpets, 3-5 trombones, 5-6 saxophones, and 3-5 rhythm instruments. There are exceptions of course, such as Maynard's band which had 2 trombones but 4 trumpets, or Stan Kenton's mellophonium bands from 1960-1963.

In modern use, big band = jazz band, but I prefer "big band" because a big band can play things that aren't jazz. For example, funk charts, faux-Latin charts (I like the term "Blue Note Latin" for these charts, as the style is very distinct from real Afro-Cuban music), faux-rock or pop charts, all of which are commonly played in big bands. But a big band still primarily plays jazz, or else you need to further describe it. Take the Latin big band for example; same winds/brass, but with an Afro-Cuban rhythm section and playing primarily Afro-Cuban music.

Historically, there was a lot more variation in the size of a big band, especially in the early days during the transition between early/trad jazz and the swing era (Fletcher Henderson's band, for example). During that time a band of 2 trumpets/cornets, 1 trombone, a couple woodwinds, and a rhythm section would be a big band, but nowadays we'd just consider that a bigger jazz combo and just put the horns in a line in front of the rhythm section.

We also now have the "little big band", which is a wonderful but sadly underrated and underused jazz ensemble with 2-3 trumpets, 2-3 trombones, 3-4 saxophones, and rhythm section. My favorite form of little big band that I've played in was 2 trumpets/flugels, tenor trombone, bass trombone, French horn, ATB saxes, piano/bass/drums. Because of the little big band, I prefer to keep the definition of big band larger than that.

Historically, many big bands called themselves orchestras or jazz orchestras, but I think in modern use the term "jazz orchestra" has evolved to specifically mean a big band with strings. The Pacific Jazz Orchestra is a great example of a modern jazz orchestra: big band, additional percussionist (including timpani), large string section, conductor, and soloists.

"Dance band" and "swing band" are also equivalent terms, describing a big band that specifically plays swing music meant for dancers to dance to. Modern big bands rarely fulfill this function, but it does happen at certain events. Here in Southern California (and many other places I'm sure), "dance band" could be used to describe a salsa band much more often than a big band.

[ghmerrill]

I think the answer to "what is a big band" depends on if you are talking about modern or historical usage.

The use and semantics of these terms have shifted over time (what a shock ). A lot of the attempted historical analysis of that also seems speculative, and absent any real hard evidence -- e.g., the oft-cited contention that "stage band" was a euphemism used to hide (in "religiously conservative" southern communities) the fact that it was "jazz" being played. My own recollection (not from either a religiously conservative or southern perspective) was that it actually had more to do with playing on stages in venues where dances were held (e.g. social clubs and "fraternal" organizations), but I was only a kid then, and that has to count as just another speculation, though I definitely don't recall anyone I ever heard of being afraid of "jazz". I mean ... really ... it isn't like it was rock and roll.

I'm also not real happy about now feeling that I'm part of a "historical" time.

[JohnL]

Here's a question:
When did the term "big band" come into common usage? Is it a retronym? It seems like most of the groups during the swing era used the term "orchestra", whether or not they had a string section.

[ghmerrill]

Is it a retronym?

Excellent focus on the problem.

The term "big band" itself does seem to function largely as a retronym. I just did a quick survey of the Wikipedia List of Big Bands (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_big_bands). The earliest ones I can find that actually referred to themselves as "big bands" appear to be in the early 1970s. This (or a bit earlier in the late 1960s) is consistent with my own foggy memories of when the term came into use.

Things are then confused by people "retrofitting" this term to much earlier bands (going back to the very early 20th century) -- thus applying the "concept" of the big band retroactively to bands that were never called that at the time (or for some time thereafter).

There's nothing really wrong with such "retrofitting" if you're careful in how you then use it. But it can confuse some discussions, resulting in a version of what logicians refer to as the de dicto/de re confusion -- but I won't go there.

[Posaunus]

The music scene around here is pretty active. Great for us old fogy semi-retired musicians who want places to play.
I am a regular or sub in several (17-18 piece) "big bands" - standard instrumentation, as previously described.
One group (which plays frequently for events where the customers like to dance) is called a "Swing Band" - and gets a lot of paid gigs.
Another (which plays in public, but less often) is called a "Society Orchestra." Their audiences sometimes dance, but also sit and listen.
Another (rehearsal band only) calls themselves a "Kicks Band." Fine players, challenging charts.
The others go by a band or venue name, and don't specify or imply the size of the group. Dancing is often involved (senior centers, etc.).

None of these groups use the terminology "Jazz Band" or "Stage Band" - that's what the high schools call their ensembles.

All of us (musicians) who play in these ensembles colloquially refer to them as "big bands."

[AndrewMeronek]

There may be some regional variations. Around where I live (Detroit area) there seem to be 4 main naming schemas: "[XX] Big Band", "[XX] Orchestra", "[XX] Jazz Orchestra" and "[XX]" without specifying the type of ensemble.

One exception I am a regular of is Rhythm Society Swing Orchestra, which is named that deliberately because the bandleader has a specific vision of performing 1930s and 1940s swing dance music.

Let's see about other local names I've seen over the years:

Night Shift Big Band
Jazz Ambassadors (I think they took this name many decades ago before the D.C. band got organized.)
Gary Greenfelder Orchestra
Scott Gwinnell Jazz Orchestra
Paul Keller Orchestra
Southfield Jazz Orchestra
The Big Band Express Orchestra
Phil Ogilve's Rhythm Kings (not quite a big band, a 10-piece group)
Nighthawks Jazz Orchestra
Toledo Jazz Orchestra
The Masters Of Music Big Band
One Beat Back Big Band
Craig Strain Orchestra
Planet D Nonet (another "not quite a big band")

oh, and "lab" bands like Wayne State University Lab Band I.

[harrisonreed]

None of the groups above are calling themselves "jazz bands".

There was a TV special in the late 50's or early 60's that featured I believe Stan Kenton and Rosolino, which was a tribute to the great big band era. They declared it dead and over in the 40's, even though they were all playing in a big band.

The concept and term is older than the 60's

[ghmerrill]

The concept and term is older than the 60's

Curious where you've found it prior to that -- unless you literally mean the CONCEPT rather than the term for it.

[harrisonreed]

The concept and term is older than the 60's

Curious where you've found it prior to that -- unless you literally mean the CONCEPT rather than the term for it.

Screenshot_20250312_194021_Chrome.jpg

Screenshot_20250312_194204_Chrome.jpg

This is an entire book on the subject from the 50's:

Screenshot_20250312_194302_Chrome.jpg

Check out everything here:

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?c ... moothing=3

[harrisonreed]

Sorry, attaching pics turned into a mess for some reason. The Google link takes you to all the mentions of big bands, going back to the early 1900s. But it really starts in the 40's.

[ghmerrill]

Well, I find that pretty convincing -- although I initially thought that "big band department" might equally well mean "large department devoted to bands."

This does seem to point the finger to some time in the early 1940s for that to emerge.

I also suspect that a thorough reading of it would be convincing against the view that the term came about in any way related to conservative Christian religious contexts.

[dbwhitaker]

The earliest usage of the term "big band" that I can find in the NY Times is from October 1955.

NYT.1955.Basie.png

The term "swing band" appeared in NY Times frequently in the 1940s.

NYT.1940.ArtieShaw.png

NYT.1943.Ellington.Downbeat.png

[osbokate]

Jazz band:



Big band:

Regardless of the terminology, that Buddy Rich video made my week! All the horns on auxillary percussion- amazing!

[dershem]

And if you want to complicate things further, in many locations "Stage Band" or "Dance Band" was used instead of "Big Band" or "Jazz Band" because, of course, 'The jazz" was the devil's music.
In the early days (100 years ago) a dance band was whatever guys you could throw together. A lot of Ellington's early stuff was closer in instrumentation to what King Oliver was using. But by the 30's a more standard instrumentation was getting around - what we now call Big Bands, though Paul Whiteman and others also had a string section. But by the time of the Glenn Mill and Artie Shaw bands of WWII, the 4 trumpet, 4 trombone, 5 sax, 3-4 rhythm was getting to be standard... with a lot of charts written with optional AS2, TS2, Trpt 3-4, Bone 3-4 parts, if you didn't have the players. Most navy bands nowadays don't have the people to field a full big band any more.