Tight Getzen lead pipe (???)

[ghmerrill]

I just acquired a used 1052AD in remarkable condition (virtually "as new"). It's great. But there are a couple of puzzling things for me.

The primary one is that the lead pipe (standard #2) is REALLY tight. I've polished the pipe itself and also the upper inner slide. No real change.

My (press fit) BrassArk and MK lead pipes slide in and out very smoothly, but the Getzen one requires a significant effort to push it down to where the threads engage and then to tighten it down. There seems to be nothining wrong with it. I mic'd the various pipes and the MK and BrassArk are just SLIGHTLY smaller diameter than the Getzen. Oh, of course that #2 is pretty long compared to the others, but the tightness seems to be all the way down.

Is this just Getzen-normal?

The only other issue I have is that the open horn appears to play sharp and I've got the main tuning slide out to about 3/4" to compensate. I really kind of like this since it's fine to have it play sharp a bit. At least you can always adjust it for temperature conditions without using a hacksaw and torch. But part of this may be just getting used to the new horn.

[Burgerbob]

If it goes in, I wouldn't worry about it too much.

That said, I recently had a 4047 leadpipe that straight up just didn't fit in any slide I tried it in except an Edwards recently. It didn't fit in any previous Edwards, just this one!

1052s are built very short, your tuning slide is going to be out a fair ways.

[ghmerrill]

1052s are built very short, your tuning slide is going to be out a fair ways.

Good to know. I'm normally not one to indulge in self-doubt, but this had me kind of going in that direction. I was hoping that someone would say "Yeah, they all do that."

[heldenbone]

I have a Minick "legit" pipe in my 1062. It too was a very snug fit until I sanded it down a bit out of fear for the slide's alignment. As for being built "sharp," I asked my tech to install Conn-style springs in the slide. He cut a Yamaha guiet-coated baritone valve spring and installed that, then moved the lock tang on the outer slide. All better for me, and feels more like my 4BF that already had springs. They are quiet and move the apparent closed 1st position out 3/4 inch.

[ghmerrill]

That's an interesting approach, and I can see the utility of it. But I'm comfortable just pulling the tuning slide and then playing the horn as usual -- now that I have confidence it's the horn and not me. I typically play 1st position off the bumper anyway.

[harrisonreed]

As for being built "sharp," I asked my tech to install Conn-style springs in the slide. He cut a Yamaha guiet-coated baritone valve spring and installed that, then moved the lock tang on the outer slide. All better for me, and feels more like my 4BF that already had springs. They are quiet and move the apparent closed 1st position out 3/4 inch.

This is the way. Pulling the tuning slide out more than a half inch or so will make the horn play wonky.

[ghmerrill]

This is the way. Pulling the tuning slide out more than a half inch or so will make the horn play wonky.

This doesn't make immediate sense to me. In either case you're lengthening the horn the same amount -- just in different locations, and both in cylindrical segment of the tubing. What's the nature of the wonkiness?

[harrisonreed]

This is the way. Pulling the tuning slide out more than a half inch or so will make the horn play wonky.

This doesn't make immediate sense to me. In either case you're lengthening the horn the same amount -- just in different locations, and both in cylindrical segment of the tubing. What's the nature of the wonkiness?

The way partials line up and how the overall intonation of the horn is, is in part related to the continuous taper of the bell section, specifically. This expansion is stopped in two places, each cylindrical leg of the tuning slide. In my experience, the longer the two cylindrical legs (ie, you pull the tuning slide), the wonkier the partials get. The effect is most pronounced on alto trombone -- pulling the tuning slide will make the horn feel completely different. In fact, I've said before but I'll say it again, I cut my 36H alto 3/8" on each leg, and the horn plays so much better that I couldn't imagine how I played it before I cut it down.

This is why you see TIS (tuning in slide) horns. These horns have one continuous expanding taper in the bell section and have very good intonation between partials. The Shires TIS alto is miles better in terms of intonation than a bell tuned alto.

[ghmerrill]

Okay ... I had a brain lapse and forgot the main tuning slide isn't cylindrical.

But (not to be argumentative, though I suppose it is), this -- particularly the incidence and degree of wonkiness -- must be very instrument-relative, and would otherwise argue against making ANY trombones with adjustable non-cylindrical tuning slides so that they should all be TIS (or some odd alternative to this). That seems like a pretty extreme (even if theoretically sound) position.

So (for me) I see the following approach:

1. Pull the tuning slide out as necessary and determine if any resulting wonkiness is a problem.

If it is, then either ...

2. Approach the problem via the described addition of a bumper spring and (effectively) lengthening the closed position (1st position) of the hand slide, or
3. Readjust my positions to accomplish the same things as 2, but without the spring.

I think I'll probably be inclined towards 3 if wonkiness is a problem.

But one other thing that I wonder about in this context is that if the horn is built in this way, and has this particular consequence, then whither 7th position? This is of only theoretical interest to me since I (almost) NEVER use 7th position, but I do wonder about a major manufacturer making a trombone that doesn't actually have a 7th position.

[elmsandr]

The getzen inner tuning slide tubes also aren’t cylindrical, there’s an interior taper there…

But an aside, yeah, the leadpipes are often a bit tight. If it bothers you, use a fine scotchbrite pad to slim it up a bit.

Cheers,
Andy

[Burgerbob]

Those Getzens are like, really short. Really really short. If you wanted to play with the tuning slide in, you're playing first position out two inches. That's untenable.

[ghmerrill]

If you wanted to play with the tuning slide in, you're playing first position out two inches. That's untenable.

If I pull the tuning slide out 3/4", the open horn is in tune. If I close the tuning slide, then my Bb is in tune 1" out from the bumper. I wave my hands and attribute that difference to the complex nature of acoustics in tubes of differing diameters ( ).

Still, you're right that it's quite a bit to live with.

[heldenbone]

This doesn't make immediate sense to me. In either case you're lengthening the horn the same amount -- just in different locations, and both in cylindrical segment of the tubing. What's the nature of the wonkiness?

The way partials line up and how the overall intonation of the horn is, is in part related to the continuous taper of the bell section, specifically. This expansion is stopped in two places, each cylindrical leg of the tuning slide. In my experience, the longer the two cylindrical legs (ie, you pull the tuning slide), the wonkier the partials get. The effect is most pronounced on alto trombone -- pulling the tuning slide will make the horn feel completely different. In fact, I've said before but I'll say it again, I cut my 36H alto 3/8" on each leg, and the horn plays so much better that I couldn't imagine how I played it before I cut it down.

This is why you see TIS (tuning in slide) horns. These horns have one continuous expanding taper in the bell section and have very good intonation between partials. The Shires TIS alto is miles better in terms of intonation than a bell tuned alto.

Many instruments are built with the tuning slide legs drawn with a taper internally. Duo Gravis for instance, and elsewhere M&W has stated they do so. It would be unsurprising to to learn of others.

[harrisonreed]

Yes but if you use the tuning slide... You still get cylindrical sections, though they are smaller. It seemed like the idea was to pull the tuning slide out significantly to fix the intonation, that's all.

I play Edwards, fwiw. They do the same thing

[Blabberbucket]

Re: tight leadpipes... We have run into this. Initially we were fitting our leadpipes fairly closely on our instruments - about .002" clearance between leadpipe and inner - and paying close attention to straightness of the tube. However, we have run into issues with our pipes not fitting or being very tight in other brands of instruments, and have loosened our clearances for pipes that we are not fitting to an instrument in the shop.

The best option is to sand or turn the end down until you have achieved the appropriate fit. If you're not comfortable with that, a good trombone tech should be able to easily take care of it for you.

Re: horn lengths and tuning slides... last time I spoke with Chris Griego, I believe he said that their tapered inner tuning slide tubes were machined and not drawn. Same difference, just nitpicking.

Wouldn't be too hard to machine some tuning slide inserts if your horn is short and you aren't interested in using slide springs. Then you can have the tuning slide pulled to appropriate length without extra steps in the bore. Heck, you could even adjust the length of the spacers to dial in the feel - we have done that with some trumpet players on their main tuning slide.

[ghmerrill]

The best option is to sand or turn the end down until you have achieved the appropriate fit.

I'm capable of doing that -- though I never got around to getting that machine lathe and will have to do it by hand.

Wouldn't be too hard to machine some tuning slide inserts if your horn is short and you aren't interested in using slide springs. Then you can have the tuning slide pulled to appropriate length without extra steps in the bore. Heck, you could even adjust the length of the spacers to dial in the feel - we have done that with some trumpet players on their main tuning slide.

Something like that would be necessary in order to achieve the ideal tuning, I guess. But I bet there are a bunch of 1052 players happily living in the wild with the stock set-up. I'll see if it makes a noticeable practical difference to me before I pull the trigger that that sort of mod.

Thanks for the insight.

[elmsandr]

Edwards used to make some tuning slides with more length in the crook, you’d have to call them and see if they still do. (Also note that all the variants of the B454 tuning slides should fit your horn with little/no adjustment. )

Cheers,
Andy

[ghmerrill]

Thanks. I'll look into that.

[ghmerrill]

Or maybe just changing from the 110 to the 112 rim ....

[ghmerrill]

I'm feeling better about this ... with ...

1. MK50 brass lead pipe (arrived today). It's not only a great fit, and screws in and out without effort -- but is just better than the original (at least for me) in terms of response and sound. Now I think I may light up the torch and put threaded nuts on my BrassArk rose brass MV50 pipe and my MK50 nickel pipe, though I think the MK50 brass one will probably remain the best overall choice with the brass bell on this horn. Suprisingly (to me, but what do I know?) the MK50 is about 3/8" longer than the stock Getzen pipe.

2. That and going to the DE 112 size rim have resulted in bringing the tuning more into line -- still with the tuning slide out a bit, but I think not excessive. And I like the sound and control of this horn in the low register better with the 112 rim.