Griego Artist - cup depths

[boneberg]

I am interested in the Griego Artist series. For me the rim diameter is clear, but I am just wondering about the cup depths. Any comparisons or observations out there, like with a Schilke or Hammond?

[harrisonreed]

The 1C is shallower than a 5G. And the B and A are shallower than that.

[Danitrb]

If that can help , I had Griego 5C and Greg Black New York 5, and Griego was bit shallower. So I think comparison with Greg Black could be :

-Griego Artist 5 D = Greg Black New York 5
-Griego Artist 5 E = Greg Black New York 5.25
- Griego Artist 5F = Greg Black New York 5.5

Compare with Bach (not considering rim, only cup depth):
- Griego C cup correspond to 5 GS cup,
- Griego B cup correspond to 6 1/2 AL cup;
- Griego D/E cup correspond to 5G cup.

[boneberg]

Thanks! I am specifically looking at the Griego Artist 5 series and was wondering what the 5C, 5D or 5E could be roughly compared to. On tenor I'm presently using a JK 5A. In the past I've used a Schilke 51 as well as the Hammond 12ML & 12L.

[Danitrb]

If you are ok with bit deep cup, I always like sound from E cup. I’m reading JK 5A has deep cup.

[walkerAG12]

This information on the cups was very helpful! Thank you

[wannabetrombonist]

For clarity and discussion's sake, I'm looking at a Vennture scan of an Griego Alessi 3C and it's a smidge deeper (and wider of course) than a Bach 5G. I recently played my teacher's Alessi 4C and I'm pretty sure it was no shallower than my Bach 5G, which would make sense compared to the Vennture 3C scan. On the other hand, I own an Alessi 7D and it seems to be comparable in depth to my 5GS, not my 5G, although it has more cup volume due to the shape of the cup so it's in between my 5G and 5GS tonally. Am I crazy or is the conventional knowledge about these mouthpieces incorrect? It seems to me the cup depth changes between diameters, and the wider diameters also have wider cups further increasing the cup volume. And I know I'm talking about Griego Alessi mouthpieces specifically, but I would imagine nothing changed beyond the Artist naming.

[boneberg]

That raises the question of whether the specs of the Artist series are identical to the Alessi series. I am primarily interested in the current Artist series, especially the depth of the C, D and E cups.

[boneberg]

And I know that at some point someone will say the obvious: "Just go to a music store and check them out"

[Danitrb]

For clarity and discussion's sake, I'm looking at a Vennture scan of an Griego Alessi 3C and it's a smidge deeper (and wider of course) than a Bach 5G. I recently played my teacher's Alessi 4C and I'm pretty sure it was no shallower than my Bach 5G, which would make sense compared to the Vennture 3C scan. On the other hand, I own an Alessi 7D and it seems to be comparable in depth to my 5GS, not my 5G, although it has more cup volume due to the shape of the cup so it's in between my 5G and 5GS tonally. Am I crazy or is the conventional knowledge about these mouthpieces incorrect? It seems to me the cup depth changes between diameters, and the wider diameters also have wider cups further increasing the cup volume. And I know I'm talking about Griego Alessi mouthpieces specifically, but I would imagine nothing changed beyond the Artist naming.

I think Griego put same cup depth associated with letters for every rim series . For sure the big difference is in cup volume. A large rim will have large volume cup and that make feel cup bigger . In this regard, the Elliott system allows play larger rims with different cup volume (cup width, not depth!). He created many volume series based on this concept .

[harrisonreed]

I think Griego put same cup depth associated with letters for every rim series . For sure the big difference is in cup volume. A large rim will have large volume cup and that make feel cup bigger . In this regard, the Elliott system allows play larger rims with different cup volume (cup width, not depth!). He created many volume series based on this concept .

I am not sure what you're trying to say here. The Griego series is not so different from the DE one in this regard, except that DE changes cup diameter through the alpha angle coming out of the cup (where the screw rim mates) and the Griego series changes along the whole profile, giving a much more similar alpha angle between numbered series. Both ways will increase volume with wider rims, DE's increases less so, but DE also has a shallower alpha angle the wider you go, at least until you "step up" into the next larger cup series (LT to XT, for example)

[Danitrb]

I think Griego put same cup depth associated with letters for every rim series . For sure the big difference is in cup volume. A large rim will have large volume cup and that make feel cup bigger . In this regard, the Elliott system allows play larger rims with different cup volume (cup width, not depth!). He created many volume series based on this concept .

I am not sure what you're trying to say here. The Griego series is not so different from the DE one in this regard, except that DE changes cup diameter through the alpha angle coming out of the cup (where the screw rim mates) and the Griego series changes along the whole profile, giving a much more similar alpha angle between numbered series. Both ways will increase volume with wider rims, DE's increases less so, but DE also has a shallower alpha angle the wider you go, at least until you "step up" into the next larger cup series (LT to XT, for example)

Yes, I tried to say, that DE system offers choice to select volume of cups also. If we take a Griego Alessi 5C and 3C che cups have same depth but on 3C is larger because it has larger rim, in same ways have some depth but also are different.

[boneberg]

If that can help , I had Griego 5C and Greg Black New York 5, and Griego was bit shallower. So I think comparison with Greg Black could be :

-Griego Artist 5 D = Greg Black New York 5
-Griego Artist 5 E = Greg Black New York 5.25
- Griego Artist 5F = Greg Black New York 5.5

Thanks for the comparison, Danitrb. I'm unfortunately not familiar with GB mpcs. My question is rather simple. Assuming the Artist 5 series, could we say that the 5F is insanely deep (a la Euphonium, and usable only by someone like William Lang, with all due respect)? By the same token how shallow would the 5C be considered? My attention is more centered around the 5D and 5E.

[Danitrb]

If that can help , I had Griego 5C and Greg Black New York 5, and Griego was bit shallower. So I think comparison with Greg Black could be :

-Griego Artist 5 D = Greg Black New York 5
-Griego Artist 5 E = Greg Black New York 5.25
- Griego Artist 5F = Greg Black New York 5.5

Thanks for the comparison, Danitrb. I'm unfortunately not familiar with GB mpcs. My question is rather simple. Assuming the Artist 5 series, could we say that the 5F is insanely deep (a la Euphonium, and usable only by someone like William Lang, with all due respect)? By the same token how shallow would the 5C be considered? My attention is more centered around the 5D and 5E.

Are you familiar with Bach specs? I don’t know so much about Hammond or Schilke. Anyway 5F is deep but no crazy deep, it is still designed for tenor trombone. As I said I always liked sound from 5E. I never tried 5D unfortunately, but it could be also right compromise.

[boneberg]

Okay, thanks! I'm somewhat familiar with the Bach specs (even though rather inconsistent), but haven't played on anything Bach in over 30 years.

[tkelley216]

I know griego tweaks some of the mouthpieces every now and then. He recently changed a few things about the 5E which works great with the 4047ET and other bach-like or Bach horns. If you were to pick one mouthpiece out of the artist series without being able to try them, I'd do a 5E. Otherwise they are only worth considering if you can try a bunch of them at once.

[JeffBone44]

I own a 1B, 1C and 1D. I like the 1C the best of the bunch. The 1D already seems massive. It's what I would use if I needed to blow the house down. Might be good if I ever played 2nd trombone on a Mahler or Shostakovich symphony. The 1B seems like a good piece to use if I were playing principal trombone on a pops concert. The 1C is the Goldilocks of the family. Good sound with lots of core without being hard to play, and has brilliance when I need it.

Since the 1D already seems so big and open, I'd have no desire to try a 1E or 1F. They'd seem almost like small bass trombone mouthpieces.

[Danitrb]

I own a 1B, 1C and 1D. I like the 1C the best of the bunch. The 1D already seems massive. It's what I would use if I needed to blow the house down. Might be good if I ever played 2nd trombone on a Mahler or Shostakovich symphony. The 1B seems like a good piece to use if I were playing principal trombone on a pops concert. The 1C is the Goldilocks of the family. Good sound with lots of core without being hard to play, and has brilliance when I need it.

Since the 1D already seems so big and open, I'd have no desire to try a 1E or 1F. They'd seem almost like small bass trombone mouthpieces.

Probably you are right but your thoughts are related to 1 series wich has very large rim. So perception of cup depth and sound is different compare to 5 series.

[JeffBone44]

I own a 1B, 1C and 1D. I like the 1C the best of the bunch. The 1D already seems massive. It's what I would use if I needed to blow the house down. Might be good if I ever played 2nd trombone on a Mahler or Shostakovich symphony. The 1B seems like a good piece to use if I were playing principal trombone on a pops concert. The 1C is the Goldilocks of the family. Good sound with lots of core without being hard to play, and has brilliance when I need it.

Since the 1D already seems so big and open, I'd have no desire to try a 1E or 1F. They'd seem almost like small bass trombone mouthpieces.

Probably you are right but your thoughts are related to 1 series wich has very large rim. So perception of cup depth and sound is different compare to 5 series.

I realize that. I do see people liking the 5E and 5F a lot. It makes sense, because the smaller rim diameter balances the deeper cup depth really well. I only play larger rims, so I just wanted to give my thoughts on the Griego Artist 1 series.

[Danitrb]

Probably you are right but your thoughts are related to 1 series wich has very large rim. So perception of cup depth and sound is different compare to 5 series.

I realize that. I do see people liking the 5E and 5F a lot. It makes sense, because the smaller rim diameter balances the deeper cup depth really well. I only play larger rims, so I just wanted to give my thoughts on the Griego Artist 1 series.

Agree with you!

[JMudge]

Just throwing in a different opinion on the Griego vs GB comparisons. Can’t agree on the list above. I have both series in those sizes. For me the GB NY 5.75 feels larger/deeper than the Griego Artist 5D; plays larger too. My GB NY 5.5 feels similar to my Griego Alessi 5C, but the Griego rim feels a bit larger than the GB. Also, the GB 5.5 is definitely shallower than the Griego 5D. The GB NY 5.75 is really closer to the Griego Artist 5E. I’m not sure if that’s at all helpful, but that’s my humble $0.02.

[Danitrb]

Just throwing in a different opinion on the Griego vs GB comparisons. Can’t agree on the list above. I have both series in those sizes. For me the GB NY 5.75 feels larger/deeper than the Griego Artist 5D; plays larger too. My GB NY 5.5 feels similar to my Griego Alessi 5C, but the Griego rim feels a bit larger than the GB. Also, the GB 5.5 is definitely shallower than the Griego 5D. The GB NY 5.75 is really closer to the Griego Artist 5E. I’m not sure if that’s at all helpful, but that’s my humble $0.02.

This sound strange to me. I played on 5C for some years and at that time I tried Greg Black New York 5 and 5.5 . Both mouthpieces were deeper than Griego 5C for sure. I also tried 5E and it was bit shallow than 5.5 .

[arich621]

The 5E is even listed as being an equivalent to the NY 5.25 on Hickeys, which I would agree with. The 5D is then about the same as the NY 5, and the 5C even shallower. Saying that the 5.5 is shallower than the 5D is very odd, and Griego would likely not agree with that.

[boneberg]

I received a 5E today. It looks very promising!

I'll have to see, since at the present time 95% of my playing is on bass. At the end of the month I have a gig on tenor.

[Danitrb]

The 5E is even listed as being an equivalent to the NY 5.25 on Hickeys, which I would agree with. The 5D is then about the same as the NY 5, and the 5C even shallower. Saying that the 5.5 is shallower than the 5D is very odd, and Griego would likely not agree with that.

This is exactly what I said .

[Danitrb]

I received a 5E today. It looks very promising!

I'll have to see, since at the present time 95% of my playing is on bass. At the end of the month I have a gig on tenor.

Nice, let us know how it will work for you!