Dull Pain in My Upper Lip

[amoss1s]

Hey all! I have a question about something I’ve been struggling with since my undergrad and looking to see if anyone else had issues with this.

I have had issues with a dull pain in my upper lip (right beneath my nose) after playing, especially after loud or high playing. It plagued my playing all through my undergrad, where I was playing mainly bass trombone and Euphonium (I’m a convert from Euphonium) - I played on a Bollinger Bass with a. Gerry Pagano mouthpiece.
After my undergrad, I stepped away from serious practicing all together, I was having kids and a full time band teacher, so I played tenor trombone throughout the day, but not nearly as much as college. For a very long time, I was convinced that all the issues were mental (which, they may have been), but now I’m not so sure!

I’ve since come back to practicing more seriously. I play a Rath R4 with a Wick 5BL (Gold Plated). I haven’t really notice the issue coming back until recently, when I switched to a Bach 4G. I love the rim size of the back and roundness of the sound, but when I play in the high range with the Bach, my lips feel like they've been sucked into the mouthpiece and that pain comes back and hangs around all day, but not with the 5BL. I don’t notice myself using a lot of pressure, and I have been very conscious of that since my undergrad.

Is this a mental issue? Is this an equipment issue? Do I need something with more resistance (euphonium-ish)? I just purchased an Elliott G cup and shank, looking for a rim, and I want to make sure this is the right thing for me!

Thank you all for your time!

[Doug Elliott]

Could be either a rim shape issue or playng mechanics.

[ghmerrill]

This could be a dental issue. Several months ago I started having some minor pain in about the location you describe. I ignored it. Fast forward several months and I had to see a dentist about what I thought was a tooth that was a bit loose (left side upper canine (so 2nd tooth back from the front). I though it might have been loosened by my apnea dental appliance (this can happen), but ...

He noted that the crown had come loose and it appeared the tooth might be infected. Further investigation showed that the crown had indeed come loose and there was a raging infection in the root of the tooth. After getting to an oral surgeon and that tooth was pulled and the infection dealt with, I'm now in the usual fairly lengthy process of getting an implant. But now at least I don't have a tooth infection, don't have the weird unexplained pain, and my playing isn't being affected.

So maybe something like this isn't your problem. But even if your problem goes back for some time, having a dentist take some x-rays just to be sure you don't have some genuine dental problem might be a good way to go. The persistent pain is worrisome and should be explained instead of (or prior to) finding a work-around for it.

[amoss1s]

Thank you for your advice! I have a dentist appointment soon, I’ll float that and see what they say. Doug, what did you mean by rim shape? I would have thought the rim on the Wick would wear me out faster than the Bach.

[Doug Elliott]

Flatter rims give better support by spreading pressure over a wider area.. Very round rims like the Bach create a pressure point at the crown of the rim curve. But there's also the issue of cartilage that's under your nose, and how the rim interacts with it in different ranges.

The round rim's pressure point can destroy endurance, but so can a wider flatter rim that locks onto the immovable tissue under your nose.

It's not really about the amount of mouthpiece pressure - it's more about where that pressure is and how it affects you and your playing.

[amoss1s]

That’s really interesting. Come to think of it, I used an SM4 for the longest time and never had the issue in a noticeable way on the Euphonium. I sold the mouthpiece in favor of a Giddings at the time and the issue started creeping in on the instrument. Do you make a wide rim? Are your rims already wider than Bachs?

[amoss1s]

You saying “playing mechanics” gave me the idea to check out my embouchure in the mirror.

I’ve always had a crooked embouchure (and smile, the left side of my mouth muscles pull harder than my right), but I did notice that when I was free buzzing low, by lips pulled hard to my left, and when I buzzed high, they were back to the center. I wonder if the muscles under my nose are overcompensating in the high range. I’ll post some pictures here in a bit.

[amoss1s]

Well,I can’t figure out how to post photos from my phone, and it doesn’t look as dramatic as it does in person, but there is certainly a pull to one side. Like I said, even my smile pulls hard to the left.

[amoss1s]

Quick Update: The "pain" is better described as a swelling feeling. I don't notice the issue on my gold plated 5BL as much, it is very slight. I have been playing tuba with my students all day (on a silver plated Conn Helleberg 7B) and the "pain" came back in full force. Its not like I can't play though it, its just uncomfortable and i notice my high range is limited. I'm pretty sure its an issue with the muscles beneath my nostrils. Maybe I'm just not suited for long term use on any rim larger than a 5? Anybody have issues like this?