The military?

[tbdana]

I've made no secret of the fact that I was not enamored of the American military during my time in it, and that I tend to focus on the negatives (mostly because you can't leave, so you'd better make sure you're cool with them up front).

Recently, I've started thinking that, after a period of progress, this may not be the best time to enlist in the military -- bands or otherwise -- if you're gay (especially gay and married), trans, or a non-citizen. This is because of the instability in military policy at this time. LGBT Americans -- and especially the trans part of that -- are under withering attacks by government these days. I can envision having rights stripped away, including the right to serve in our country's military, like in the old days.

I can also see marriage rights being dissolved, leaving gay Americans serving without marital rights, and no ability to leave the military.

And, wrongly to my mind, non-citizens being arrested and deported even though they are honorably serving the country. After all, they have deported actual American citizens, as well as legal immigrants who have done nothing illegal (and in some cases they've shipped them to foreign prisons).

Can anyone guarantee the rights and safety of our LGBT and non-citizens serving in the U.S. military?

[MStarke]

It's shocking how things go back to where the world was decades and centuries ago.

And especially when we are talking about things that definitely do not hurt anyone else. Why is it an issue for a hetero person that someone else has another sexual or gender preference? Am I missing something?

[Digidog]

There are many academics (I read one writing in the newspaper just yesterday) who now say that while it previously was church - or rather: religious main societal bodies - that was the main force in holding back scientific and social progression, that role of opposing and holding back progression and development, nowdays has been taken over by politicians.

[hyperbolica]

There are a lot of ways to get excluded from the military. Flat feet. Kidney stones. Bad eyesight. Mental illness. Age. If you need more medical care than a certain level to justify what you bring to the party.

The military is not a social experiment. It's not an education program or a jobs program or a picnic party at the UU church. The military is meant to look big and bad and scary and to f$ck $#!+ up when necessary. Not everybody fits into that profile.

This whole post is a very thinly veiled political troll. It's just going to go the direction of all the rest. Mods need to step up and avoid the reputation this place is gaining as a political trolling ground. There are plenty of places to take this sort of thing such as X and Facebook.

[norbie2018]

Tangents should be eliminated from this forum. No more political posts, only trombone related posts, please.

[officermayo]

Getting my dose of liberal political bullshit early tonight. Guess I can skip watching MSNBC. Then again, there’s always The View tomorrow morning.

[tbdana]

I dunno, is this liberal political bullshit? I don't think it is.

There are patriotic gay and trans Americans who want to serve their country. But people are actively trying to exclude trans Americans from any kind of service at all, and they want to deny the marriages of married gay people serving, which removes housing, medical care, access to financial benefits, relocation benefits, and a whole bunch of other things. This isn't just political bullshit. This is real people trying to harm other real people, all of whom claim to be patriots and who want to serve the country. It's not "political," it's real. And it's damaging.

There are ads on this forum for military band auditions. Gay folks audition, pass, and enlist. Imagine a gay, married trombone player getting in, and completely uprooting his and his husband's lives to serve. Maybe he gets stationed in Germany, or South Korea, or somewhere else overseas, and his husband and child go along with him. And then the "bad guys" (in my opinion) win the battle and the federal government refuses to recognize the marriages of gay servicemen. What happens to that family? What happens if the servicemember is injured, hospitalized, or killed? What happens if the husband is? Or the child, if the child is not his biological child? This isn't just talk. Powerful people are trying to make that stuff happen, right now.

So it's not "political bullshit" in my mind. And, in fact, the whole reason this came to my mind is because current active duty military bandsmen have said they're worried about these things. It's something LGBT Americans should carefully consider when thinking about auditioning for a military band in this social climate. Because if they refuse to recognize your marriage, you're still suck serving. You can't get out of it just because the military changed the agreement after the fact. You're stuck and f*cked.

So, as a married gay woman myself, I don't read about this and think, "Oh, liberal bullshit." I think, "Wow, people are worried about what's going to happen to them." Or maybe you think that kind of worry is "liberal political bullshit" the same way that foreign college students worrying about their visas being cancelled and them being deported without warning is "liberal political bullshit." But I see it in human terms, not political terms. And I'm just saying, hey, if you're LGBT or a foreigner and are thinking of trying out for a military band, maybe you should consider what they're saying they want to do to you before making that commitment you can't get out of.

[nateaff]

This kind of thing makes me wish the US scrapped a lot of a military bands altogether. I served in the Navy as a nuclear machinist mate on a carrier and never once in six years had any interaction with any military bands. To be frank we (those of us deployed on a ship) didn't consider people in naval bands part of the Navy at all. What exactly do they have to do with the purported goals of the military? I can understand the ceremonial bands and some other historic institutions like the President's Own and the importance of their legacies, no complaints there.

My personal feeling is that if the government wants to be involved in sponsoring the arts (I am strongly in favor of government support for the arts) then we should have our own versions of things like the BBC Orchestra or the WDR Big Band. Those types of things would (in my opinion) be more artistically interesting than the current military bands looking ridiculous in their dress uniforms and unable to shuffle in their seats lest the public should spy a lack of military bearing. Let's be real here, most of the military bands have zero to do with what the military actually does. I'd much rather see just "The National Band" made up of civilian government employees than military bands.

Just think of how much more interesting and beneficial to the American arts it would be if some of these terrific players were allowed to play more interesting music and play more freely! (We could even free them from roasting on stage in their blues)

That's just my two cents as someone who was in the military without my trombone. Also, I wholeheartedly agree with Dana on all points.

[BGuttman]

Actually, I like Military bands. I like regional bands who are available for ceremonies on local bases and who participate in local patriotic events. I like having them perform public concerts on summer evenings. It's one of the things from My Tax Dollars At Work that I can enjoy. Incidentally, I consider a number of the members of the [former] Military Bands in my area as friends.

Dana is decrying a very serious change in the Gummint that is very arbitrary and capricious. I hope it doesn't spillover into rank and file Military. There is nothing about being LGBTQ that directly affects your ability to perform any military task. This has been proven over the last 30 years at the least.

[officermayo]

Guess I'll be signing off with this.

In memory of my father MSgt M.A. Mayo USMC Retired who was a trombone player and Drum Major, and yet had decorated combat service in Vietnam (because REAL Marine Bands have a combat mission), I state the following:

Fuck anyone who thinks military bandsmen are less than any other service members. Also my 12 years of active duty as a Marine Bandsman (which included two tours as a Drill Instructor) I say fuck you to the same idiot dickheads.

Fuck the whole lot of you. You can all kiss my hairy ass.

Semper Fi and eat a bag of dicks. Sounds like some you might actually enjoy that.

Don't bother banning me as I'm out of here.

[Doug Elliott]

Now I'm really confused who thinks what.

[nateaff]

I hope it's clear I meant no offense to anyone here who might want me to eat a bag of dicks - which, for the record, I will not be doing.

Also, I like hearing the military bands, I just think it's a weird thing to have the military be involved with outside of purely ceremonial contexts, as they are frankly useless as a recruiting tool (outside of recruiting more musicians) It makes about as much sense to me as having a National Parks Service Band or a Bureau of Land Management Band.

[boneagain]

I hope it's clear I meant no offense to anyone here who might want me to eat a bag of dicks - which, for the record, I will not be doing.

Also, I like hearing the military bands, I just think it's a weird thing to have the military be involved with outside of purely ceremonial contexts, as they are frankly useless as a recruiting tool (outside of recruiting more musicians) It makes about as much sense to me as having a National Parks Service Band or a Bureau of Land Management Band.

I hate to say "back in my day," but
back in my day we had fleet bands that went out with ships.
We were called "unit bands."
Often we came out of the school at Little Creek as a "unit," with a couple experienced fleet guys (like lead petty officers) tagged on at the duty station.
My first unit band was numbered 22.
For those who don't remember, that number ORIGINALLY belonged to the guys who died heading to their battle stations on the Arizona.

Things have changed.
Up through WWII live music was a much bigger part of general entertainment.
In the Vietnam era we worked hard to help provide social entertainment opportunities for crews on deployment.
Nothing like being out for two weeks, then having a "no liberty" stop at Souda Bay, Crete, followed by more weeks cruising around playing cat-and-mouse with the Russian navy. Navy, at least back then, tried hard to make that feel less like punishment. Our band was part of that.
We played big band, which the senior crew members seemed to enjoy.
We had a rock unit, which the junior crew members seemed to enjoy.
On one of our deployments we found a fantastic guitarist down in engineering.
His department was very gracious about letting him join us FREQUENTLY.

While at sea we had "duty stations." We stood watches around the clock. We struggled to find time that we could rehearse without disturbing our "airdales," who had to stay awake on the flight deck in the middle of the night. We played for refuelings. When we pulled into port the guys from the destroyers on the far side of the refueling ship would look us up and thank us for the tunes they liked (and ask us to leave out the ones they didn't like.)

We were kind of hard to find in port though. While everyone else on the ship had "liberty" we were usually on a bus to play for an orphanage, or school, or some other destination for the Department of State. That usually meant one or two "shitty ditty" gigs in the morning, then lunch, then a couple in the afternoon, then supper, then a big band show in a town square (like Syntagma in downtown Athens, Greece.) We schlepped all our own gear. About two tons of it. I think that was pretty much a state departement thing too, but I don't know for a fact.

During one of our brief times ashore we played for the launching of the SECOND nuclear carrier.
Guess that was kinda the beginning of the end. No band room on the new ships. With all the electronic media, no need for guys like us to entertain while actually at sea. That leaves the state departement and ceremonial jobs. Cheaper to have the musicians work longer days taking busses and planes to those gigs.

Things have come a LONG ways from when we could cajole that guitar player out of engineering to now when other ratings have NO idea what the band actually does.

BTW: I remember only a handful of recruiting shows. As I recall, the recruiting booth was pretty crowded. Post concert recruiting numbers WERE tracked. Bands kept getting invited back. So maybe those DID bring in more recruits than you could see from an engineering vantage point? Did you pull a recruiting tour? Tough job. I was glad I never had to do more than play a couple times!

[Kdanielsen]

Are we just OK with homophobia here? Moderators??

[BGuttman]

Are we just OK with homophobia here? Moderators??

I think it's pretty obvious from most of the posts that we are not (OK with homophobia).

[nateaff]

I hate to say "back in my day," but...

...During one of our brief times ashore we played for the launching of the SECOND nuclear carrier.

You're seriously dating yourself with that information haha, and the fact is a lot has changed since the launching of the Nimitz, which is now well into the back half of the life of its SECOND reactor pair of reactor cores.

What you described just simply doesn't exist anymore, but during the time you served there were many naval jobs that were important then but defunct now. There are no more Signalmen, no more Boiler Techs, and countless other rates have either had their job descriptions changed drastically, had their personnel quotas drop or both.

The plain and simple fact is that in my time (2015-2021, don't ask about my Covid cruise haha) while I was stationed in Norfolk, the largest naval base in the world (and a stone's throw from DC) the amount of times I crossed paths with, or even noticed the existence of any Navy bands was precisely zero. I'm sure the same was true for the other 5,500 people on the ship, the vast majority of whom were less predisposed to enjoy trombone-forward music than I.

There was some musical entertainment on bi-weekly mess deck open mics and some patchwork blues bands, in which I played harmonica, but these were all provided by the crew members - which I think is better for morale, even if the music ends up being fairly crappy.

I know those of down in the reactor and engineering spaces were already resentful of "Topsiders/Airedales" because they weren't attached to the ship and got to have cushy non-jobs once the ship dropped them off in Pensacola while we kept running drills on an empty ship before mooring at Norfolk for months of 4 section duty maintenance hell. I can't imagine how resentful we'd be of any bandsmen we might come across who frankly don't live the same cursed existence as most of the poor slobs who joined the Navy as an escape valve from the life they would have led in the civilian world. I can appreciate that being a military bandsman is real work, but it just isn't in the same universe as what myself and others were doing for 15 hours a day in reactor spaces that were often upwards of 120 degrees.

It's time to let military bands that do nothing to serve the military die. If they're only going to play for the civilian public anyway then they should be part of the civilian public. I honestly think people would have a stronger relationship to state sponsored local bands and orchestras than they do to military bands, which I think can veer on the side of jingoistic nonsense with a lot of their appearance and performance. Why should a non-military band be any less patriotic? I know I'd have a stronge relationship to the potential "United States Band of the Mountain West" made up of civilians who could still play at patriotic events, but they could do it wearing suit jackets, beards, and without those RIDICULOUS shiny plastic shoes.

[Kdanielsen]

Are we just OK with homophobia here? Moderators??

I think it's pretty obvious from most of the posts that we are not (OK with homophobia).

It isn't. When posts are made that use clearly homophobic language and there are seemingly zero repercussions, it isn't obvious at all. I guess he did say not to bother banning him.

[MStarke]

Agreed, I was going to also comment in that direction, but as a non-native speaker I am always a little hesitant that I a) might read something incorrectly and b) might not express myself correctly.

But I find those comments very much unacceptable. Yes, it might be better to reduce political talk here, but I hope that the general agreement and rules here will remain to ban all sorts of behavior that is so obviously against "minorities". And I do not even need to be homosexual myself to be very much offended by this.

The world does not get better by silently accepting this.

[tbdana]

Wow, I am so sorry. I did not intend to inspire such hostility. In fact, I'm confused by the hostility. I don't understand what there is about this to get angry about (unless you're an LGBT service member who fears the coming of the attempted changes).

In any case, I'm sorry.

[nateaff]

Wow, I am so sorry. I did not intend to inspire such hostility. In fact, I'm confused by the hostility. I don't understand what there is about this to get angry about (unless you're an LGBT service member who fears the coming of the attempted changes).

In any case, I'm sorry.

You only have to apologize when you've wronged someone. You had nothing to do with anyone else's unforced errors. What are you supposed to do when an opponent keeps serving the ball into the net and crying to to line judge that the match is unfair?

[bwilliams]

I hate to say "back in my day," but...

...During one of our brief times ashore we played for the launching of the SECOND nuclear carrier.

You're seriously dating yourself with that information haha, and the fact is a lot has changed since the launching of the Nimitz, which is now well into the back half of the life of its SECOND reactor pair of reactor cores.

What you described just simply doesn't exist anymore, but during the time you served there were many naval jobs that were important then but defunct now. There are no more Signalmen, no more Boiler Techs, and countless other rates have either had their job descriptions changed drastically, had their personnel quotas drop or both.

The plain and simple fact is that in my time (2015-2021, don't ask about my Covid cruise haha) while I was stationed in Norfolk, the largest naval base in the world (and a stone's throw from DC) the amount of times I crossed paths with, or even noticed the existence of any Navy bands was precisely zero. I'm sure the same was true for the other 5,500 people on the ship, the vast majority of whom were less predisposed to enjoy trombone-forward music than I.

There was some musical entertainment on bi-weekly mess deck open mics and some patchwork blues bands, in which I played harmonica, but these were all provided by the crew members - which I think is better for morale, even if the music ends up being fairly crappy.

I know those of down in the reactor and engineering spaces were already resentful of "Topsiders/Airedales" because they weren't attached to the ship and got to have cushy non-jobs once the ship dropped them off in Pensacola while we kept running drills on an empty ship before mooring at Norfolk for months of 4 section duty maintenance hell. I can't imagine how resentful we'd be of any bandsmen we might come across who frankly don't live the same cursed existence as most of the poor slobs who joined the Navy as an escape valve from the life they would have led in the civilian world. I can appreciate that being a military bandsman is real work, but it just isn't in the same universe as what myself and others were doing for 15 hours a day in reactor spaces that were often upwards of 120 degrees.

It's time to let military bands that do nothing to serve the military die. If they're only going to play for the civilian public anyway then they should be part of the civilian public. I honestly think people would have a stronger relationship to state sponsored local bands and orchestras than they do to military bands, which I think can veer on the side of jingoistic nonsense with a lot of their appearance and performance. Why should a non-military band be any less patriotic? I know I'd have a stronge relationship to the potential "United States Band of the Mountain West" made up of civilians who could still play at patriotic events, but they could do it wearing suit jackets, beards, and without those RIDICULOUS shiny plastic shoes.

When I entered the recruiter's office, I had a skill that the Navy wanted, so I got a sweet deal, shore duty in beautiful locations, home most every night. Don't blame MUs for taking advantage of what was/is being offered. Don't be a hater. Your hell wasn't as bad as the hell of the infantry grunt who resents you for sleeping in a bed every day.

[nateaff]

When I entered the recruiter's office, I had a skill that the Navy wanted, so I got a sweet deal, shore duty in beautiful locations, home most every night. Don't blame MUs for taking advantage of what was/is being offered. Don't be a hater. Your hell wasn't as bad as the hell of Marine Infantry who resent you for sleeping in a bed every day.

I'm not mad at you or anyone else for having a better time than I did. I just think it's a silly thing for the military to be involved with in the 21st century. Should the Navy also employ dancers? painters? actors? poets? I'm all for government bands, but putting them in military uniforms just doesn't make any sense in my opinion.

[WilliamLang]

Yeah they really should. Seeing what you can do when a war ends is valuable and engagement with the arts or creativity in general can help reduce PTSD.

[nateaff]

I really appreciate that perspective, maybe I'm blinded by how I've seen the Navy work for me. I guess my main gripe with the military bands is that they don't do much of anything for the benefit of military members until their funerals. Having a REAL arts outreach program like that would be wonderful, but is unlikely, even for a future, more enlightened, administration.

To me it's a civilian job that interfaces almost exclusively with civilians while wearing a military uniform, and I'm just not crazy about that

[musicofnote]

I've made no secret of the fact that I was not enamored of the American military during my time in it, and that I tend to focus on the negatives (mostly because you can't leave, so you'd better make sure you're cool with them up front).

Recently, I've started thinking that, after a period of progress, this may not be the best time to enlist in the military -- bands or otherwise -- if you're gay (especially gay and married), trans, or a non-citizen. This is because of the instability in military policy at this time. LGBT Americans -- and especially the trans part of that -- are under withering attacks by government these days. I can envision having rights stripped away, including the right to serve in our country's military, like in the old days.

I can also see marriage rights being dissolved, leaving gay Americans serving without marital rights, and no ability to leave the military.

And, wrongly to my mind, non-citizens being arrested and deported even though they are honorably serving the country. After all, they have deported actual American citizens, as well as legal immigrants who have done nothing illegal (and in some cases they've shipped them to foreign prisons).

Can anyone guarantee the rights and safety of our LGBT and non-citizens serving in the U.S. military?

More important, with Greenland, Panama and maybe even going against citizens at home, Which begs the question: At what point will active duty US military and reserves as well as National Guard remember that the oath they swore was to defend and uphold the Constitution of the US and not to bow down to the will of a Supreme Dictator? The later excuse "I was only following orders" was disallowed in Nürnberg. https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/t ... erg-trials

[bwilliams]

I've made no secret of the fact that I was not enamored of the American military during my time in it, and that I tend to focus on the negatives (mostly because you can't leave, so you'd better make sure you're cool with them up front).

Recently, I've started thinking that, after a period of progress, this may not be the best time to enlist in the military -- bands or otherwise -- if you're gay (especially gay and married), trans, or a non-citizen. This is because of the instability in military policy at this time. LGBT Americans -- and especially the trans part of that -- are under withering attacks by government these days. I can envision having rights stripped away, including the right to serve in our country's military, like in the old days.

I can also see marriage rights being dissolved, leaving gay Americans serving without marital rights, and no ability to leave the military.

And, wrongly to my mind, non-citizens being arrested and deported even though they are honorably serving the country. After all, they have deported actual American citizens, as well as legal immigrants who have done nothing illegal (and in some cases they've shipped them to foreign prisons).

Can anyone guarantee the rights and safety of our LGBT and non-citizens serving in the U.S. military?

More important, with Greenland, Panama and maybe even going against citizens at home, Which begs the question: At what point will active duty US military and reserves as well as National Guard remember that the oath they swore was to defend and uphold the Constitution of the US and not to bow down to the will of a Supreme Dictator? The later excuse "I was only following orders" was disallowed in Nürnberg. https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/t ... erg-trials

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

The part about who to obey is important too. Just because you don't like presidential policies doesn't not mean an unlawful order or constitutional crisis.

Nürnberg? Really? Come on.

[musicofnote]

Nürnberg? Really? Come on.

Have you been to Nürnberg? To Dachau? To Buchenwald?

I have.

https://warontherocks.com/2017/07/when- ... -an-order/

„Within the United States, Sophie Magdalena Scholl is not the best-known resistance fighter, but her story is a powerful one. She was a key member of the Weiße Rose (White Rose)—a resistance group run by students at the University of Munich who distributed leaflets and used graffiti to decry Nazi crimes and the political system, while calling for resistance to the Nazi state and the war. On February 22, 1943, she was beheaded for treason at just 21 years old. „

https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/a ... _Qk2p-_gow

I wonder …
What will be the modern day White Rose movement?
Who will be the modern day Sophie and Hans Scholl?
What will be the modern day first KZ – is that already Guantanemo? Or the detention camps in Arizona, Louisiana, El Salvador, … wherever? Remember, the first German KZ was in Dachau (near München) and was a labor camp for „undesirables“ such as political prisoners, catholics, socialists, communists, homosexuals, „chronically unemployed“ etc. and opened it’s gate in 1933, a full 5 years before the Kristallnacht in 1938 and the rush to build the Vernichtungslager.

People are being disappeared from open streets with no due process. If the SAVE Act is passed, 70 million Americans will be disenfranchised. Do you really believe taking over Greenland is supported in the constitution? Taking over the Panama Canal? How much is enough? The president using active duty military against US citizens as Trump wanted to and Milley refused to order?

[AndrewMeronek]

I really appreciate that perspective, maybe I'm blinded by how I've seen the Navy work for me. I guess my main gripe with the military bands is that they don't do much of anything for the benefit of military members until their funerals.

I can't speak for the current state of military bands, but when I was in the Army band system, we did a lot: yes, the cereonial and outreach stuff. But also: training other units (especially at some things the band was unusually good at, like marksmanship), guard duty, patrols, martial arts (we had 2 black belts in the band), equipment management, lots of miscellaneous things that all military people have to do. Including climbing the ranks to become senior NCOs, WOs, commissioned officers, and specialized roles like drill sergeants.

But yeah, funerals are the big one. I know many trumpet players who literally got PTSD from the stress of cranking out hundreds of TAPS for killed soldiers. That is one of the most sacred things in the military. That duty is no joke.

[2bobone]

Yes, the military and everything about it has changed as time marches on. There was a time --- my time --- when you were "requested" by your local draft board to participate by altering your life plan, offering your talents to a branch of our armed services. Today, participation is voluntary, and so those who do avail themselves of the opportunity are aware of the ups and downs of such a commitment or certainly should be. Choice, not coercion, as lawful as it might have been. I think that "tbdana's" arguments are well-considered and point out situations that many of us do not have to consider other than to offer a degree of empathy to those who must confront them.

I am compelled to add one other thought in the form of one of my past posts : "I remember political discussions destroying the old "Trombone Forum". Would a moderator be willing to "Pull The Plug" on this one ? If all our displayed talent were redirected towards discussing the role of the trombone in the works of Dvorak, Tschaikovsky and Sibelius, we would all be the better for it. We can find plenty of other places to discuss politics. This is NOT the place".

Nuff said -------------

[tbdana]

I'm fine with shutting this thread down. I didn't intend all the hostility, nor is it welcome.

[BGuttman]

OK. At your request I'll lock the thread. I'm also going to close the reported post.