.547 for undergrad

[blacksaintsaens]

Hi everyone,

I'm in my first year of undergraduate music performance currently playing a medium bore Yamaha 446G I've had since freshman year of high school. I plan to finish this last term of the year on it however I am looking to upgrade to a .547 instrument over summer break. My budget for a horn is somewhere in the ballpark of 2000-2500 dollars, and I plan for it to last me at least until I graduate. Only thing I want to stray away from is Yamaha Xenos. For whatever reason I just can't gel with most of them, and the ones I do gel with don't sound better than my current horn enough for me to be comfortable making an investment on one. I haven't had the opportunity to try any non-Xeno 600 or 800 series instruments yet. Every Bach I've tried so far I've really loved. If you guys could give me some recommendations on horns to look at and try out I would much appreciate it! Thanks!!

[DCIsky]

When I visited at the beginning of March, Baltimore Brass Co had a used Bach 42 with gold bell and nickel slide for about $1700. It wasn’t a looker, but I genuinely thought that horn played better than most of the instruments in that hall (including a full lineup of Shires, Courtois and Thein!). If you have the opportunity to visit that store and see if it’s still there, I’d jump on that. Sometimes, a good Bach is all you need.

Otherwise, in that price range, you can typically find used examples:
- Conn 88H
- Bach 42b variants
- Getzen 3047, maybe 4047
- Shires Q
- Yamaha 882 closed-wrap (I and many others can argue that it’s very different than standard Yamahas, in a good way)
- Y-Fort screwbell horn

[nateaff]

Get a used 600/800 series Yamaha, the old ones are really not very Xeno-ish, you'll probably like them better. You can find them for 1000-1500 if you look, especially from Japanese sellers.

That leaves plenty left over for a decent jazz horn

[MrKirk]

You can find open box or "like new" of a wide range of large bore tenors for that price range. I would highly recommend looking up Mighty Quinn Brass and Winds for open box or like new, but as always look around for used deals.

As far as horns to consider I'll mirror what DCIsky suggested with the exception of try the Yamaha 882GOR or 882OR, which I believe they have updated models which are 882iiOR and 882iiGOR. The OR variants are IMO better than the normal 882, but I did not "gel" with them. As far as Bach's are concerned, the LT42BOFG is a very good horn IMO.

[ScaryTerry]

I found it really useful to play on a custom horn when I started my undergrad and switched to a Bach 42 after. The stock horns are great, but not as easy to play and find my voice as a custom

[blacksaintsaens]

I found it really useful to play on a custom horn when I started my undergrad and switched to a Bach 42 after. The stock horns are great, but not as easy to play and find my voice as a custom

What aftermarket customizations should I be looking for on Bachs specifically? What's most common?

[Xcomunic8d]

I bought a Bach strad 42BO way back in ‘98 plays as good as ever. definitely look at those. My first .547 was in 95 a 42b but got stolen so I bought the 42BO in 98. I’ve found good prices on them used (Facebook marketplace and eBay). The open wrap is much better than the closed one in my opinion. I’d like to see how recent upgrades (axial setups) might play better. I don’t use the f trigger as much as I thought I would. I actually like position 6,7 for the true sound. but there are times it’s great to shorten the run with the trigger. Takes some getting used to. I’d suggest the light slide if possible but not a deal breaker. Ps your teachers may dictate when you may and may not use the trigger (mine did in our t bone choir and private lessons).

A conn 88 would be a great choice
Getzen and shires are great horns too.
King 4b is a .547 but never played one.

I’d bet you could find several of those to try out at college before purchasing (think getting married).
I upgraded my jr year of high school. So you’re in a perfect time to upgrade.

It was a huge change for me when I went from my king tenor small bore (prob a silver tempo with brass slide). To the Bach 42BO. Lots more air required. I had a rough month or 3 with it and found myself picking up my old one quite a bit. But the day came I had more command of it and it produces amazing sound. Rich full and deep. Higher register requires much cleaner technique but is more forgiving on the tone. But you will feel it on your lungs for awhile.

I’m currently teaching my 16 year old son on my Bach 42BO. It’s way too advanced for him. But there are literally no stores or horns for sale on my island in Hawaii. I have some smaller bore horns being shipped in.

Whatever you choose stick it out. It may be a much bigger change than you think and hold on to your old horn for sure. But the possibilities will be amazing when you master it. Then go back to your old horn and rock out to jazz and play in the stratosphere with that classic sound.

Enjoy and let us know which direction you go

[DCIsky]

I found it really useful to play on a custom horn when I started my undergrad and switched to a Bach 42 after. The stock horns are great, but not as easy to play and find my voice as a custom

What aftermarket customizations should I be looking for on Bachs specifically? What's most common?

On these threads, you’ll get a lot of people that tell younger players like yourself to stick with a stock model, then branch out/explore custom instruments as you get older, grow as a player and develop your own preferences. I’m gonna echo them; get something standard and middle-of-the-road that will help you achieve consistency without working too hard. One of my colleagues, a sponsored artist who performs with military bands and orchestras all over the place, did their undergrad using an intermediate model and did not upgrade until the end of their masters degree. Consistency is key!

But for nerdiness sake: the most common customization of a Bach 42 is swapping out the valve. As a cost cutting measure (because they didn’t believe that large bore horns would overtake the medium bore 36 In popularity), Vincent Bach designed the 42 using the valve and gooseneck from the smaller Bach 36. Many a player finds the original design stuffy and will swap out the valve for a modern design. Instrument Innovations has a popular retrofit rotor. Greenhoe (and M&W in the modern era) Are well known for their retrofit work. It is important that the work is completed by a skilled technician.

[ScaryTerry]

What aftermarket customizations should I be looking for on Bachs specifically? What's most common?

On these threads, you’ll get a lot of people that tell younger players like yourself to stick with a stock model, then branch out/explore custom instruments as you get older, grow as a player and develop your own preferences. I’m gonna echo them; get something standard and middle-of-the-road that will help you achieve consistency without working too hard. One of my colleagues, a sponsored artist who performs with military bands and orchestras all over the place, did their undergrad using an intermediate model and did not upgrade until the end of their masters degree. Consistency is key!

But for nerdiness sake: the most common customization of a Bach 42 is swapping out the valve. As a cost cutting measure (because they didn’t believe that large bore horns would overtake the medium bore 36 In popularity), Vincent Bach designed the 42 using the valve and gooseneck from the smaller Bach 36. Many a player finds the original design stuffy and will swap out the valve for a modern design. Instrument Innovations has a popular retrofit rotor. Greenhoe (and M&W in the modern era) Are well known for their retrofit work. It is important that the work is completed by a skilled technician.

Yeah, my college professor won his first two auditions ever in his undergrad playing on a Bach TB200, or whatever the old intermediate .525 model they have is. Improvement can be had on any trombone, even if it isn’t 6k. It also takes so long to get used to a new trombone, like 6 months or more for me.

My 42 has a hagmann valve and a shires slide. The standard Bach slide is great, but I think the shires slide adds a bit of versatility to the sound. I don’t think any of it is really necessary though, just a good routine and years of consistent practice. Good equipment helps, good habits are the key.

[Dennis]

But for nerdiness sake: the most common customization of a Bach 42 is swapping out the valve. As a cost cutting measure (because they didn’t believe that large bore horns would overtake the medium bore 36 In popularity), Vincent Bach designed the 42 using the valve and gooseneck from the smaller Bach 36.

There is a little more to it than that. First off, Vincent Bach was notoriously frugal, maybe a result of nursing a small business through the Depression and diversion to war production, or maybe it was just his nature. There are lots of stories about this, and the Bach 42 being a re-worked 36 is one of the better-known ones. The other part is that Bach believed he'd already designed the definitive orchestral tenor trombone, and it was the model 36. (Even into the 1970s Bach's advertising brochures designated the 36 as a large-bore trombone. The 12 and 16 were medium-bore. The 6 and 8 weren't in production at that time.)

What's funny is that Emory Remington probably agreed to some degree. I've read that he explained standardizing on the 88H for his performance majors because he had no way of knowing who would become bass trombonists and who would become tenor trombonists. He assumed that they would acquire more specialized instruments (if they needed to) after they left school. In the meantime, a really good tenor-bass would served their learning needs. So he worked with Conn to develop a really good tenor-bass.

Of course most didn't change, or dropped the valve with an 8H rather than going to a 78H or a 36. Bach needed a large bore to compete, so he put his bass receiver on the 36 bell, trimmed that bell to 8½ inches, and mounted a .547 inch slide. All that tooling already existed. Voila--the 42 was born.

[sirisobhakya]

If you like the 446, I can understand why you don’t like the Xenos. The Xenos are a “different” lineage of Yamaha, being heavier and more “Americanized”, or more accurately “Bach-ized”. The original lineage emphasize lightness, ease-of-playing, and comform to Japanese wind band sound concept of being lighter and brighter than American one.

My recommendation would be the YSL-620, a step up from the 446. Or if you can find, the 820GII, which is normally sold only in Japan. These 2 are of Yamaha original design and should be closer to the 446 in term of sound and feelings.

[JTeagarden]

I am surprised your trombone professor doesn't have a recommendation, having someone you trust and who knows you whittle down the absurdly long list of possibilities to a workable number can be a huge relief.

[WGWTR180]

I am surprised your trombone professor doesn't have a recommendation, having someone you trust and who knows you whittle down the absurdly long list of possibilities to a workable number can be a huge relief.

Agreed. That's why I think these general questions about "what instrument" or "what mouthpiece" are just useless to most. Ask your teacher. Then get something you can play on. It just won't matter in the long run. If a student turns out o be GREAT then that student will be able to play anything.

[etbone]

I found it really useful to play on a custom horn when I started my undergrad and switched to a Bach 42 after. The stock horns are great, but not as easy to play and find my voice as a custom

What aftermarket customizations should I be looking for on Bachs specifically? What's most common?

NO! No custom! If you like the Bach. Get a standard 42. My favorites: 42AF(Infinity valve), 42A(Hagmann). Gold or Yellow bell. The Hagmann valve has a little more valve maintenance. Keep an old horn (mid or small bore), for things like marching/pep/jazz band.

[blacksaintsaens]

I am surprised your trombone professor doesn't have a recommendation, having someone you trust and who knows you whittle down the absurdly long list of possibilities to a workable number can be a huge relief.

I spoke to my professor about it months ago and he kinda blew off the question. I spoke to him again a couple days ago and this time he strongly recommended I save up a couple years and get a custom Shires. He's a Shires artist and said he has a discount he could give me if I end up buying new, however money-wise a new custom Shires won't be in the cards for a good while. I asked him for some alternatives and the only thing he told me was to stay as far away from Bach as I could and kept recommending a custom Shires. I guess I should go look at some Q series...

[Pezza]

I'm wary of people who are artists for a brand as unbiased recommendations.
Most, not all, tend to push that brand, even when told that isn't an option. Your professor could easily recommend an alternative based on your playing. Saying keep well clear of Bach's, because you like them & may buy 1, robbing him of a commission!

I know artists that like model A, hate model B, but push both as they get a commission on sales.

[sirisobhakya]

I am surprised your trombone professor doesn't have a recommendation, having someone you trust and who knows you whittle down the absurdly long list of possibilities to a workable number can be a huge relief.

I spoke to my professor about it months ago and he kinda blew off the question. I spoke to him again a couple days ago and this time he strongly recommended I save up a couple years and get a custom Shires. He's a Shires artist and said he has a discount he could give me if I end up buying new, however money-wise a new custom Shires won't be in the cards for a good while. I asked him for some alternatives and the only thing he told me was to stay as far away from Bach as I could and kept recommending a custom Shires. I guess I should go look at some Q series...

Well, business is business

Q series is budget-friendly and I like the ones I tried. However, try as many (both horns and brands) as you can first.

[JTeagarden]

There's nothing wrong with someone being a branded artist, and since there's just not so much money being thrown around to promote trombones, I doubt that the financial benefits of being one are so great that it clouds their judgment.

They might have a natural preference for the brand they have chosen for themselves, though.

[Pezza]

I agree that there is nothing wrong with being a branded artist, the obviously like what they play.
However, I know some that for example are a Yamaha tuba artist that doesn't like yamaha trombones, but still push yamaha trombones.
As a teacher, if a student asks about buying an instrument, you shouldn't just be pushing 1 brand. Explore many options. The instrument 1 of my teachers played I hated.
Another teacher, who was an artist, loved his instrument, but ended up getting a differed brand!