Rolling In / Rolling Out Chops

[Basie1955]

After a long layoff I’m playing again.
I have my mouthpiece high on chops.
When I was playing a lot I developed a fairly
forward puckered set up.
I was hoping I could go back to that feel but
it’s not panning out too well. I’m guessing
I blew that embouchure into shape little by little
over time.

Fall back plan is to use a rolled in set up for awhile
to kind of protect my chops and let my
lips slowly unfurl over a period of time as
things shore up.
I get a richer tone with the puckered set.

Low notes are awkward with rolled in right now.
I can use either bottom or top top lip rolled out
for those. Lower lip rolled out sounds a little bit
more full.

Has anyone used this approach to regain playing
skill after a long layoff?

Thanks

[brassmedic]

I use both of those. Lips are puckered and protrude more on low notes and curl back as I go higher.

[Basie1955]

Thanks Brad,

I think that’ll be the next step for me.
I seem to remember using puckered up high too
but with a very slight curl out at the end of my
chops. It was like a tiny sail that caught the wind
and carried my chops out further.
I realize that this is all kind of maybe overthinking
things but I used to be able to play at least pretty well
and now I’m frustrated. Thanks again. Much appreciated.

[brassmedic]

Get a Skype lesson with Doug Elliot. I hear he is very helpful with embouchure issues.

[Wilktone]

Personally, I don't really describe how you form your embouchure as rolling in or out. I think it's too easy to go too far in either direction that way, particularly if you use one for high range and one for low range. Now how you *feel* it might be described by rolling your lips in or out, but I'd need to watch you play to take a guess whether you're on the right track.

A lesson with Doug would definitely point you in the right direction this way.

Dave

[Basie1955]

Personally, I don't really describe how you form your embouchure as rolling in or out. I think it's too easy to go too far in either direction that way, particularly if you use one for high range and one for low range. Now how you *feel* it might be described by rolling your lips in or out, but I'd need to watch you play to take a guess whether you're on the right track.

A lesson with Doug would definitely point you in the right direction this way.

Dave

Thanks. I’ll consider a lesson.
Maybe an extreme rolling in might be the great Bill Watrous.
It you look at him playing in his early days there’s
a lot of lip showing. A very ‘standard’ appearance.
Over the years it looks like his lip tissue is disappearing.
Just a thought.

[timothy42b]

Trumpet playing methods include one called Balanced Embouchure, based on Jeff Smiley. They talk about Rollin and Rollout.
And I think it has something to do with Callet as well.
There's a discussion forum on Trumpet Herald here:
https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=29

[Basie1955]

Trumpet playing methods include one called Balanced Embouchure, based on Jeff Smiley. They talk about Rollin and Rollout.
And I think it has something to do with Callet as well.
There's a discussion forum on Trumpet Herald here:
https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=29

Thanks,
I’ve read a bit about that method. It’s interesting.
The player develops a wide range of motion
and eventually arrives at a balanced equilibrium.
He was a Gordon student and there’s some
similarity. One part of Claude’s program was to play as
as high as you could, and as low as you could everyday.
Do whatever you need to do with your chops.
Breathing and tongue positioning was all you needed
to think about. Pretty quickly the chops would
begin to even out and become stable.

[Xcomunic8d]

Yes, I took a longer break than anticipated in life too. When I got married, my wife and I moved into an apartment and I played often. But less and less as my schedule got in the way and the hours would be a noise issue to others (including our babies as they came). I played but it tapered off.

Then I went into secure logistics for a decade. I had no time to play. I was traveling 300 days a year. Still playing on weekends once a month or so but just done.

Then it sat in its case and 1 month turned to 1 year turned to 10…, it was a long fall from collegiate trombone choirs, performance groups, traveling for the college, and being asked by the brass faculty to major in it (I turned that down due to no career options in my mind then). To struggling with easy songs and intonation issues I beat in high school.

Pulled it out some time ago and started all the way back to where I was in 5th grade when I started playing. That was about a year ago. Some really good advice here. Remember to keep your teeth open (straw idea works for me).

My teacher in college taught me to keep my lips generally balanced but lips farther apart and even in mouthpiece on low notes and tighter farther out on higher notes. He used the illustration of a valve. He said think of your lips like a valve. The upper lip goes on top of the lower one and the higher you go the farther back they go and the farther down you point the air.

I totally agree with brassmedic on how he described his post of low to high.

I also found a very useful post (can’t remember who but it’s under the thread about high notes here) that explains the phrasing oh, ah,eh,ah, oh for low medium, high, medium, low register phrasing.

I see lots of scales and long tones in your future. It will come back. Just try to fall in love again and remember what you loved about playing.
Good luck and glad you pulled it back out.

[AndrewMeronek]

I think that "rolling" the lips isn't a primary concern with embouchure but may result from doing other things that are more consequential. Also: when looking at someone else play, seeing the "red" of the lips becoming fatter or thinner doesn't necessarily mean that lips are rolling.

[Basie1955]

I see lots of scales and long tones in your future. It will come back. Just try to fall in love again and remember what you loved about playing.
Good luck and glad you pulled it back out.

Yup, lots of good work ahead.
The smallest breakthrough feels great.

[Basie1955]

I think that "rolling" the lips isn't a primary concern with embouchure but may result from doing other things that are more consequential. Also: when looking at someone else play, seeing the "red" of the lips becoming fatter or thinner doesn't necessarily mean that lips are rolling.

Not sure what ‘other things that are more consequential’ means. Tips?

I did see an interesting interview with Dick Nash
where he said he played high notes by simply
rolling in his chops.

[AndrewMeronek]

Not sure what ‘other things that are more consequential’ means. Tips?

Locating the mouthpiece relative to the teeth, how the mouthpiece grips the lips to move them relative to the teeth as range changes, shape of the tongue to focus the airstream, how to breathe, how to tongue, how to focus . . .

[Basie1955]

Not sure what ‘other things that are more consequential’ means. Tips?

Locating the mouthpiece relative to the teeth, how the mouthpiece grips the lips to move them relative to the teeth as range changes, shape of the tongue to focus the airstream, how to breathe, how to tongue, how to focus . . .

Thanks! I am working on all of these aspects.
They’re all crucial. Lots of moving parts.
My original post was asking if anyone had experience
using a rolled in set up after a long layoff.
Not really ‘is playing rolled in OK?’
I appreciate your list very much.

I’m finding out I can play with a good sound,
flexibility and range ( for me ) rolled in.
The real benefit is that my chops don’t fatigue
and thus I can practice different aspects for long periods without lip swelling or discomfort.

[Oslide]

--- snippet ---
I did see an interesting interview with Dick Nash where he said he played high notes by simply rolling in his chops.

What he says is "I tuck and curl my chops to go high".

[Basie1955]

--- snippet ---
I did see an interesting interview with Dick Nash where he said he played high notes by simply rolling in his chops.

What he says is "I tuck and curl my chops to go high".

Tuck and curl. Yup.