Replacement Hand Slide Crooks

[BrianJohnston]

Hi all,

I’m looking for all of the companies who sell hand slide crooks. I’m especially looking for ones that are less common options like gold brass, red brass, bronze, sterling silver.

I know M/K drawing & bending has Bronze & Sterling Silver and they make unique sizes too.
Shires offers gold brass crooks as far as I know?

Any other leads are greatly appreciated

[MTbassbone]

https://brassark.com/sale/slide-crooks/

[BrianJohnston]

https://brassark.com/sale/slide-crooks/

They don’t make them anymore.

[pfrancis]

https://www.omalleyhorns.com/products/l ... bach-style

If they have these as possible production items they *could* maybe be enticed into making some in more interesting (to you) materials.

Adams also uses Sterling for some crooks (in addition to standard offerings).

[Blabberbucket]

https://www.omalleyhorns.com/products/l ... bach-style

If they have these as possible production items they *could* maybe be enticed into making some in more interesting (to you) materials.

Adams also uses Sterling for some crooks (in addition to standard offerings).

We might consider making gold or red Bach crooks, though they would have to be seamed crooks and would likely be special order with extended lead times. [email protected]

[SoVTTb]

I would’ve said M/K, Miles O’Malley (and company) and Brad Close as well. I wonder if somebody with a smaller bespoke shop/factory would do some non-standard crooks too. I’m thinking M&W, Steve Shires, BAC, or somebody like Matthias Hölle in Germany

[BrianJohnston]

I would’ve said M/K, Miles O’Malley (and company) and Brad Close as well. I wonder if somebody with a smaller bespoke shop/factory would do some non-standard crooks too. I’m thinking M&W, Steve Shires, BAC, or somebody like Matthias Hölle in Germany

If any of you above are reading this, would this be something you’d be able to do? Thank you

[hornbuilder]

Brian
What are you wanting to achieve?
Something to keep in mind here, alloys do the same thing for the response/sound, regardless of where they are on the horn.
So, taking yellow brass as "standard", nickel silver will give more highs to the sound, and quicker response, at the expense of breadth and "weight" in the sound (speaking in broad terms)
Adding gold brass will add breadth and warmth to the sound, at the expense of immediacy of response, and clarity in the sound. Red brass takes those characteristics even further.
Sterling silver brings weight and breadth with a certain solidity and "sparkle"
The handslide crook is one of the harder places on the horn to "try" alloys, since you have to completely rebuild the slide to change crooks. If you want to experiment with the different alloys to see what they bring, I suggest doing it with the leadpipe, since it is the easiest part of the instrument to change out (assuming you have a non-soldered pipe)
If you find you like a gold brass or nickel or red brass pipe over a yellow pipe, and want more those characteristics, then adding a crook of that material will do that. But it will come with the compromise as described above.

[hornbuilder]

BTW. The M/K bronze is actually 90/10 red brass. This allow is referred to as Commercial Bronze in many circles.

[BrianJohnston]

BTW. The M/K bronze is actually 90/10 red brass. This allow is referred to as Commercial Bronze in many circles.

Good to know.

I currently have the .605 “bronze” M/K on my .547 lightweight slide and it adds the right amount of size and warmth to my sound. I was actually worried that it was bronze (with tin in it) and was keeping my slide from fully resonating since tin is a duller material.? My horn is all yellow brass except for the lead pipe, nickel. (and slide crook, red brass).

[hornbuilder]

The nickel leadpipe and bronze crook are, essentially, cancelling each other out, IMO...

Some years ago trumpet bells were made from "Ambronze", which contained tin. They were known for their resonance and response, of memory serves correctly. There is no reason a bronze containing tin can't work. It is rare, because it is harder to work.

[BrianJohnston]

The nickel leadpipe and bronze crook are, essentially, cancelling each other out, IMO...

Thank you for the replies so far.

Wouldn’t having some nickel and some red brass change the color or overtones of the sound? Also won’t the leadpipe material effect feel more than the slide crook?

[hornbuilder]

Yes. Potentially, Maybe..

There are hypothesis out there that the closer the part is to the player, the more effect it will have. I don't know that I necessarily agree with that. The bell makes a huge difference...

What about your current setup are you wanting to change?

[pfrancis]

Lawson horns are also “famous” for using ambronze. Beautifully crafted instruments, if unpopular currently as they are quite stout and dont present a lot of feedback to the player. The feedback/weight should be able to be mitigated with lighter design and/or not building the instrument out of Ambronze and Nickel (only) to maintain a relatable feedback for the user.

I think in the trombone community Ambronze/actual bronze is potentially under utilized or superseded in areas it could be used by nickel silver. Like some horns, trumpets also make use of it from time to time. Bronze/Ambronze machines well, and the surface becomes smoother with use (threads, tubing and flats like washers as seen in knives) which can lead to a satisfying aspect for the user rather than sometimes “scratchy” nickel or brass threads. Realistically this is likely due to it being harder to source in appropriate sizes in addition to its trickier to work attributes.

[BrianJohnston]

What about your current setup are you wanting to change?

I’ve been suspecting that my crook is a bit dull sounding. I was wondering if there was a more resonant option without getting (much) brighter. Maybe gold brass would be a step in the right direction.

[hornbuilder]

If it were my instrument, I would go back to a yellow pipe, and yellow, tenor size, crook. Then if you feel you need to broaden/"darken" the sound, use a gold brass pipe, or a shorter version of the yellow pipe (shorter pipe gives a wider/broader sound)

Another consideration, if you feel an all yellow setup is "too bright", would be to emulate the NY/MtV horns, and use a gold tube/yellow crook slide. Adds a really nice "weight" and depth to the sound.

[JohntheTheologian]

Vintage Conns such as my 1966 48H used something called Beryllium Bronze in the slide tubes if my memory is correct.

I'm not quite sure what that is and if it's still used by anyone in any parts of modern horns.

[BGuttman]

Beryllium brass contains the light metal beryllium alloyed into the brass. At one time beryllium brass trumpet bells were popular. Main problem with beryllium is it is VERY poisonous, mostly by inhalation of dust. I would wear a dust mask when polishing such metal. I don't know if there were sonic reasons beryllium brass was abandoned.

[Doug Elliott]

I knew people who got beryllium trumpet bells. As I recall they were VERY thin, to the point where you could practically dent it with finger pressure. I don't know the reason.

[GabrielRice]

One reason to use beryllium bronze - or gold brass or nickel for that matter - rather than yellow brass is that those materials do not red rot. Many old Bach slides (my mid-60s 50 slide for example) have so much red rot that they are not really viable for regular use anymore. My 70H slide from 1940 - beryllium bronze tubes with a nickel crook - on the other hand, will last forever as long as I can keep the chrome plating on the inners from getting any worse. In fact, the only part of that instrument that has been replaced is one bent part in the valve section that had red rot.

[JohntheTheologian]

Maybe that's why my 49H slide is still so good after all these years. granted, for a number of years it sat in the case during my layoff years and my years mostly playing euphonium, but the slide is great, especially after our fantastic local tech, Merlin Grady, did a slide job on it a few years ago.

As far as denting beryllium, I wonder if Conn used a different proportion of beryllium in their vintage horns. My 1966 48H slide is considered LW, but I haven't noticed it being extra thin or prone to denting.

My old Blessing B88 has a slide that looks like the old Conn slides. Does anyone know if they used beryllium as well, since Blessing used so many Conn features in those horns? Perhaps it's just gold brass, but it certainly looks different than the yellow brass in the rest of the horn.

There have been a number of discussions on whether the Yamaha 643 is really an 88H clone, but one thing that is clearly different is that my 643II has yellow brass slide tubes, not beryllium or gold brass.