Medium bore question for a new middle aged player

[Laika]

Are the yam 354 the best start for someone not in elementary/middle school, but perhaps, say, much much older? Admittedly, I'm borrowing a 354 from a friend who's son is using a different horn at the moment, but the intention is to give it back once the son needs it again. As such, in the near future I will be hornless and all the practice I have put in to learning my 1st position lip slurs will be over unless I get my own horn.

Do I buy another 354 for $200 or find a medium bore for not much more? Maybe even spend $900 for the y fort 260 GL with the fancy case? I'm not so much worried about the money, but because I am new, I wouldn't know what exactly to look for when purchasing used. I'd like to get a teacher also, but am unsure because I don't have my own horn yet so might wait until I know more about my options.

As far as the 354 I am borrowing, it seems fine to me, but there is so much chatter on here that it's a student horn, or only used for jazz, not good for band settings, etc. I don't necessarily think I should buy a .547 either as that seems unnecessary for my ambitions.

I guess what I'm really looking for is a well placed purchase in a horn that can span multiple settings and a medium bore seems like it would match that use case. Bach 36?

[Doug Elliott]

My first thought is to say you should find another 354, they're really good horns. But if your ultimate intention is to play in a community band, a 36 (or other .525 bore horn) or King 3B ( or other .508 bore) would be a better choice.
Or do both - get a cheap 354 now, and then keep looking for your next slightly larger horn. It never hurts to have two.

[UATrombone]

...... do both - get a cheap 354 now, and then keep looking for your next slightly larger horn. It never hurts to have two.

This^
IMO, definition "student" isn't about age, it's about level of player.
When someone is learning how to drive a car, do they really need Ferrari/Lamborghini/BMW or even a Ford Mustang as their first car?
I don't think so... They need something like Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla.
Same is for horns.
Yamaha 354 is good first horn for "student", regardless of age.

[nateaff]

The Yamaha 354 isn't a good student horn, it's a good horn in general.

[CharlieB]

Do you have a teacher yet ?
If not, I'd say that lining one up should have a higher priority than buying a brand new horn.
He (she) would be able to guide you in the right direction before you develop bad habits, or buy the wrong horn.
I'd be wary of buying any horn, new or used, unless an experienced trombonist checked it out first.
We don't know where you live. Many music stores rent out trombones.

[hyperbolica]

The 354 won't cost much. I'd advocate getting a bigger f attachment horn in addition to that. Like a Bach 36b or a King 607. You don't need a 547.

[Laika]

Do you have a teacher yet ?
If not, I'd say that lining one up should have a higher priority than buying a brand new horn.
He (she) would be able to guide you in the right direction before you develop bad habits, or buy the wrong horn.
I'd be wary of buying any horn, new or used, unless an experienced trombonist checked it out first.
We don't know where you live. Many music stores rent out trombones.

No teacher yet sorry, I'm in a unique situation with borrowing a yam 354 atm and making progress with lip slurs in my positions, but when I return the horn I'll need to buy one. I was told "soon" is when I have to return the yam 354 I am using, so I need to start looking around the used market now for something. I figured a medium bore would be a good bet, but will look into the 3b as well.

Prices seem to be all over the place in my area of southern California, so I'm still scoping out some horns.

[Laika]

The 354 won't cost much. I'd advocate getting a bigger f attachment horn in addition to that. Like a Bach 36b or a King 607. You don't need a 547.

I generally would have thought so also, but the few 354 I've seen used around here range from $250 - $1200. I agree that I don't need a 547.

Question about the king 3b .508 bore, is this considered a medium bore? A bach 36 would fit nicely, but I can't seem to find any of those around me as of yet.

[BGuttman]

King 3B, Bach 16M, and Yamaha 691/891 are all "large small bore," not much bigger than your 354. From the standpoint of a beginner, there isn't much difference between a Yamaha 354 and one of the ones mentioned above -- except they all cost a lot more.

The Yamaha 354 punches well above its weight; i.e. plays like a more expensive instrument.

Other possible alternatives that you might find used include Conn 6H, 10H, 48H, 100H; Yamaha 651; Benge 170; Reynolds Argenta; Olds Super, Recording, Radio; Holton 67, 100; Conn Director 20H, 22H; King 1306, 606, 2115 (2B Plus). All the same bore as the Yamaha 354 you play now. Some are student horns, some step-up, and some are professional. Costs can range from $100 (watch for possible repair needs for something this cheap) to $1200 (mint quality pro horn).

[Finetales]

Do I buy another 354 for $200 or find a medium bore for not much more? Maybe even spend $900 for the y fort 260 GL with the fancy case?

.525s are great do-everything horns. That Y-Fort is a wonderful .525, and would work well for everything you mention. I'd personally take one over most 36s I've played. But there are also plenty of used 3BFs (.508 but just as versatile) and Bach 36Bs around. The Kings (either .508 3BF, or .525 3B+F/607) tend to be pretty consistent, so that would probably be the safest bet sight-unseen. There are of course other medium bores too (Yamaha .525s, Reynolds .515 and .520 models, Conn 78H/79H, etc.), but they are less widely available used.

If I was in your situation, I'd probably start a good used medium bore with F to cover all your bases, and then down the line if you feel you want something smaller for jazz etc. pick up a cheap 354 or other small horn.

[AtomicClock]

Are the yam 354 the best start for someone not in elementary/middle school, but perhaps, say, much much older?

As I child, I could play a narrow slide like that. But as a (fat) adult, not so much.

[Laika]

Are the yam 354 the best start for someone not in elementary/middle school, but perhaps, say, much much older?

As I child, I could play a narrow slide like that. But as a (fat) adult, not so much.

Haha what does this mean? So you would also recommend a learning adult to more or less start on a medium bore because the slide is not narrow?

[Laika]

Do I buy another 354 for $200 or find a medium bore for not much more? Maybe even spend $900 for the y fort 260 GL with the fancy case?

.525s are great do-everything horns. That Y-Fort is a wonderful .525, and would work well for everything you mention. I'd personally take one over most 36s I've played. But there are also plenty of used 3BFs (.508 but just as versatile) and Bach 36Bs around. The Kings (either .508 3BF, or .525 3B+F/607) tend to be pretty consistent, so that would probably be the safest bet sight-unseen. There are of course other medium bores too (Yamaha .525s, Reynolds .515 and .520 models, Conn 78H/79H, etc.), but they are less widely available used.

If I was in your situation, I'd probably start a good used medium bore with F to cover all your bases, and then down the line if you feel you want something smaller for jazz etc. pick up a cheap 354 or other small horn.

Thank you for the thoughts. I read your NAMM report and saw your review of the Y-fort medium bore. It makes a lot of sense just buying the new Y-Fort vs waiting for some used horns to show up. I've checked Brass ark, Brass exchange, shopgoodwill, facebook marketplace, offerup for some of the horns that BGuttman listed, but the prices are all over the place making it hard for me to determine a good value when I see it.

[Finetales]

Thank you for the thoughts. I read your NAMM report and saw your review of the Y-fort medium bore. It makes a lot of sense just buying the new Y-Fort vs waiting for some used horns to show up. I've checked Brass ark, Brass exchange, shopgoodwill, facebook marketplace, offerup for some of the horns that BGuttman listed, but the prices are all over the place making it hard for me to determine a good value when I see it.

You may be too late to order one without getting slapped with tariffs, unless you order from somewhere in the US that already has it in stock. Dillon Music is the only one I know of currently; Raymond Music doesn't keep that model in stock according to their website, but they do have the large bore 363GL in stock for only a bit more. But Dillon has exactly one 260GL ready to ship for $895.

[hyperbolica]

The thing with wide slides and people with wide necks is familiar to me. I really loved my 79h for that reason, and also 36b have wide slides.

I was also a little afraid of my 32h (500/522) because it had a really narrow slide. But I had my slide widened, and now the 32h is a bit of a go-to for lead orchestra gigs. It's nice to finally have a place for that horn. It has sat around my house for a while with nothing to do. It's too fat for jazz and with the narrow slide was too skinny for my neck. But with a wider crook on the slide, it turns out to be just right for pops music and lighter orchestral stuff. I had mostly given up most of my orchestral playing, but I'm subbing lead for a concert, and this horn fits in nicely. Even though it's a 500/522 I'd still consider it at least part way to a medium bore. It has the fat medium bore Conn sound.

[Laika]

Thank you for the thoughts. I read your NAMM report and saw your review of the Y-fort medium bore. It makes a lot of sense just buying the new Y-Fort vs waiting for some used horns to show up. I've checked Brass ark, Brass exchange, shopgoodwill, facebook marketplace, offerup for some of the horns that BGuttman listed, but the prices are all over the place making it hard for me to determine a good value when I see it.

You may be too late to order one without getting slapped with tariffs, unless you order from somewhere in the US that already has it in stock. Dillon Music is the only one I know of currently; Raymond Music doesn't keep that model in stock according to their website, but they do have the large bore 363GL in stock for only a bit more. But Dillon has exactly one 260GL ready to ship for $895.

That's a bummer, but it's okay. I don't want to make a rushed decision because there is only one left in the country. It sounds like I'll have the yam 354 for another month to progress on. My tone and control have improved so much in the few weeks since I started with the Brad Edwards lip slur book. I'm almost ready to try 2nd position ! In that month, I'll continue to monitor the used market (and tariffs) for some of the horns BGuttman listed. I think I'm set though in my understanding that a medium bore is a really solid choice for where I'm at and my intentions with the horn.

[AtomicClock]

Haha what does this mean? So you would also recommend a learning adult to more or less start on a medium bore because the slide is not narrow?

It means I wouldn't recommend a 354 to every new player. And that it might be fun to tally the neck sizes of everyone who can & can't fit in one.

[AtomicClock]

Where are you? If you're anywhere near Boston, I have a Bach Omega (.525, F-att) just sitting around gathering dust (foolish impulse buy) which I'd loan out.

[Laika]

Where are you? If you're anywhere near Boston, I have a Bach Omega (.525, F-att) just sitting around gathering dust (foolish impulse buy) which I'd loan out.

Southern California area. Thanks for the offer though that is very kind!

[cb56]

In California check out Ron'z tbone shed he's on facebook and youtube. He buys used horns and refurbishes them then sells them at a very affordable price. He's had a few conn 78Hs in there recently