Quote from: MoominDave on Nov 18, 2016, 08:24AM
I didn't read it quite like that. It says "There is no speech, nor are there words, whose voice is not heard". So if there is speech, then it is heard. I think the psalmist is saying that the world proclaims the deity by its very existence. Back in metaphorland again.
Yes, definitely lots of metaphors.
And I agree that "the psalmist is saying that the world proclaims the deity by its very existence" too. I was just making that point that the proclamation of the deity doesn't give us all the details of the creator and how we are to relate to him. The psalmist is saying that we need the word to reveal that.
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ttf_drizabone
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ttf_timothy42b
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Quote from: drizabone on Nov 18, 2016, 12:32PMNo. But I don't see what the problem you think I might be sliding towards is. What is it?
As soon as you admit a natural explanation for a claimed miracle, you run the risk of losing all the miracles.
For example, the Feeding of the 5000 was not a miracle of multiplying food, it was a miracle of motivating the crowds to contribute to the first pot luck; the parting of the Red Sea was actually lost in the marshes of the Reed Sea, etc.
Eventually it becomes normal think God only acts through nonsupernatural ways, aside from a few spectacular ones long ago never to be repeated, and maybe not to be trusted in the first place.
And that could be true. But then you start to wonder about the usefulness.
As soon as you admit a natural explanation for a claimed miracle, you run the risk of losing all the miracles.
For example, the Feeding of the 5000 was not a miracle of multiplying food, it was a miracle of motivating the crowds to contribute to the first pot luck; the parting of the Red Sea was actually lost in the marshes of the Reed Sea, etc.
Eventually it becomes normal think God only acts through nonsupernatural ways, aside from a few spectacular ones long ago never to be repeated, and maybe not to be trusted in the first place.
And that could be true. But then you start to wonder about the usefulness.
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: timothy42b on Nov 18, 2016, 01:52PMAs soon as you admit a natural explanation for a claimed miracle, you run the risk of losing all the miracles.
I understand now.
if you understand that the world is made up of 2 types of events: natural events that conform to the normal 'laws' of nature and supernatural events that are unexplainable, then you run that risk. And as science 'explains' more about how the natural world runs it does seem that there is less and less need for God to do the unexplainable and less and less room for God to exist in the unexplainable corner.
And I think that lots of scientists have so much faith in their method that they think that every thing is potentially explainable by natural forces.
Alternately some understand that the God does everything, regardless whether it is currently explainable or not. So when an apple falls from a tree, that's God doing it. That an apple falls from a tree with a constant acceleration is God doing it the same way everytime.
QuoteFor example, the Feeding of the 5000 was not a miracle of multiplying food, it was a miracle of motivating the crowds to contribute to the first pot luck; the parting of the Red Sea was actually lost in the marshes of the Reed Sea, etc.
Eventually it becomes normal think God only acts through nonsupernatural ways, aside from a few spectacular ones long ago never to be repeated, and maybe not to be trusted in the first place.
I guess people might think that. But I think its important to work out what the bible says and to believe and follow that. God can look after the consequences.
QuoteAnd that could be true. But then you start to wonder about the usefulness.
A lot of times in the bible (NT especially) the 'miracles' ie showy unexplainable things were called signs. The way I see it is that "miracles" or signs were used to authenticate Jesus and the apostles as being from God.
Even though I think that we don't need them now, I know missionaries that can tell of 'miracles' that have happened in places that are less scientific than us. I've got no explanation for why that would happen.
I understand now.
if you understand that the world is made up of 2 types of events: natural events that conform to the normal 'laws' of nature and supernatural events that are unexplainable, then you run that risk. And as science 'explains' more about how the natural world runs it does seem that there is less and less need for God to do the unexplainable and less and less room for God to exist in the unexplainable corner.
And I think that lots of scientists have so much faith in their method that they think that every thing is potentially explainable by natural forces.
Alternately some understand that the God does everything, regardless whether it is currently explainable or not. So when an apple falls from a tree, that's God doing it. That an apple falls from a tree with a constant acceleration is God doing it the same way everytime.
QuoteFor example, the Feeding of the 5000 was not a miracle of multiplying food, it was a miracle of motivating the crowds to contribute to the first pot luck; the parting of the Red Sea was actually lost in the marshes of the Reed Sea, etc.
Eventually it becomes normal think God only acts through nonsupernatural ways, aside from a few spectacular ones long ago never to be repeated, and maybe not to be trusted in the first place.
I guess people might think that. But I think its important to work out what the bible says and to believe and follow that. God can look after the consequences.
QuoteAnd that could be true. But then you start to wonder about the usefulness.
A lot of times in the bible (NT especially) the 'miracles' ie showy unexplainable things were called signs. The way I see it is that "miracles" or signs were used to authenticate Jesus and the apostles as being from God.
Even though I think that we don't need them now, I know missionaries that can tell of 'miracles' that have happened in places that are less scientific than us. I've got no explanation for why that would happen.
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ttf_drizabone
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Psalm 21 text
Highlights
- The king rejoices in God's strength
Summary
- David rejoices in God's strength
- God has given David good things
- God will defeat his enemies
Questions and Observations
1)
Highlights
- The king rejoices in God's strength
Summary
- David rejoices in God's strength
- God has given David good things
- God will defeat his enemies
Questions and Observations
1)
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ttf_drizabone
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Psalm 22 text
Highlights
- An innocent suffers and is forsaken
Summary
- The psalmist asks why God has forsaken him and does not answer him
- He declares that God is holy but that he is scorned and mocked because he trusts in God
- He declares his life long dependence on God and longs for his support
- He is completely worn out, surrounded by his enemies and near death
- He asks for help from the Lord and promises to praise God
- All shall turn to the Lord and worship him
Questions and Observations
1) I'm not sure if David was ever in a situation like this but this Psalm is seen by Chirstians as a depiction of what was going to happen on the cross. Jesus quotes from this Psalm on the cross eg Matt 27:46
2) There seem to be parallels between this and Job : where an innocent suffers, yet still trusts God, but God remains silent and lets it happen.
Highlights
- An innocent suffers and is forsaken
Summary
- The psalmist asks why God has forsaken him and does not answer him
- He declares that God is holy but that he is scorned and mocked because he trusts in God
- He declares his life long dependence on God and longs for his support
- He is completely worn out, surrounded by his enemies and near death
- He asks for help from the Lord and promises to praise God
- All shall turn to the Lord and worship him
Questions and Observations
1) I'm not sure if David was ever in a situation like this but this Psalm is seen by Chirstians as a depiction of what was going to happen on the cross. Jesus quotes from this Psalm on the cross eg Matt 27:46
2) There seem to be parallels between this and Job : where an innocent suffers, yet still trusts God, but God remains silent and lets it happen.
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Psalm 23 text
Highlights
- Shepherd, protector and host
Summary
- The Lord is my shepherd so I will lack for nothing I need
- The Lord is my protector so I will fear no evil
- The Lord is my host and I shall live with him forever
Questions and Observations
1) Probably the most well know Psalm.
2) Written from David's experience as a shepherd.
Highlights
- Shepherd, protector and host
Summary
- The Lord is my shepherd so I will lack for nothing I need
- The Lord is my protector so I will fear no evil
- The Lord is my host and I shall live with him forever
Questions and Observations
1) Probably the most well know Psalm.
2) Written from David's experience as a shepherd.
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ttf_MoominDave
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Quote from: ddickerson on Nov 18, 2016, 08:38AMCertainly, that is why I pointed it out to you.
Now, you and I both know that you're just being snarky here because you didn't like my saying that what you'd written about Islam lacked a rounded perspective. No worries, I'll take it as a request to drop the subject. Easily done, as I shan't be on TTF much in the next week.
Quote from: ddickerson on Nov 18, 2016, 08:38AM"Fear the Lord" can be confusing, because most of us interpret "fear" differently than what is meant here. People that have entered into a relationship with Our Lord do Fear the Lord, and one can conclude that one means the other. No one would expect a non believer to be one who Honours and Fears the Lord in the way it was meant. So, it's not the open door you think it is.
I think a misreading here? It doesn't talk about honouring the Lord; it talks about honouring those who fear the Lord.
Quote from: ddickerson on Nov 18, 2016, 08:38AMYou're welcome to believe that, but you realize that you're being judgmental by saying that such a person is a person not to be admired?
Take care; that isn't at all what I said. I said that the act of maintaining a religious faith position of any kind is not something that in itself I find admirable. To me it's simply a part of someone's personality. A person can have a strong religious faith and be admirable. They can also have one and be unadmirable. Or not have one and be either.
Quote from: ddickerson on Nov 18, 2016, 08:38AMKeep up the good work!
Glad you like it!
Now, you and I both know that you're just being snarky here because you didn't like my saying that what you'd written about Islam lacked a rounded perspective. No worries, I'll take it as a request to drop the subject. Easily done, as I shan't be on TTF much in the next week.
Quote from: ddickerson on Nov 18, 2016, 08:38AM"Fear the Lord" can be confusing, because most of us interpret "fear" differently than what is meant here. People that have entered into a relationship with Our Lord do Fear the Lord, and one can conclude that one means the other. No one would expect a non believer to be one who Honours and Fears the Lord in the way it was meant. So, it's not the open door you think it is.
I think a misreading here? It doesn't talk about honouring the Lord; it talks about honouring those who fear the Lord.
Quote from: ddickerson on Nov 18, 2016, 08:38AMYou're welcome to believe that, but you realize that you're being judgmental by saying that such a person is a person not to be admired?
Take care; that isn't at all what I said. I said that the act of maintaining a religious faith position of any kind is not something that in itself I find admirable. To me it's simply a part of someone's personality. A person can have a strong religious faith and be admirable. They can also have one and be unadmirable. Or not have one and be either.
Quote from: ddickerson on Nov 18, 2016, 08:38AMKeep up the good work!
Glad you like it!
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ttf_MoominDave
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Psalm 24 text
Highlights
- Brief collected facets of God
Summary
- God made the Earth
- Some criteria for saving
- An invocation of praise to God
Questions and Observations
1) This one has no particular single theme, covering three large topics briefly.
2) Verses 7-10 are stylistically interesting. They remind me rather of call-and-response type affirmations - more about catchiness than conveying concepts.
3) Compare verses 3-6 with Psalm 15, which is a fuller (but still not complete, as discussed) listing.
4) Dusty, you seem keen on the Psalms. Fancy taking a turn or two at summaries?
Highlights
- Brief collected facets of God
Summary
- God made the Earth
- Some criteria for saving
- An invocation of praise to God
Questions and Observations
1) This one has no particular single theme, covering three large topics briefly.
2) Verses 7-10 are stylistically interesting. They remind me rather of call-and-response type affirmations - more about catchiness than conveying concepts.
3) Compare verses 3-6 with Psalm 15, which is a fuller (but still not complete, as discussed) listing.
4) Dusty, you seem keen on the Psalms. Fancy taking a turn or two at summaries?
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ttf_ddickerson
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Quote from: MoominDave on Nov 19, 2016, 02:31PMPsalm 24 text
Highlights
- Brief collected facets of God
Summary
- God made the Earth
- Some criteria for saving
- An invocation of praise to God
Questions and Observations
1) This one has no particular single theme, covering three large topics briefly.
2) Verses 7-10 are stylistically interesting. They remind me rather of call-and-response type affirmations - more about catchiness than conveying concepts.
3) Compare verses 3-6 with Psalm 15, which is a fuller (but still not complete, as discussed) listing.
4) Dusty, you seem keen on the Psalms. Fancy taking a turn or two at summaries?
From the NIV:
1 The earth is the Lords, and everything in it,
the world, and all who live in it;
(Remember the Book of Psalms is God's Word set to lyrical music)
Another reminder the Lord created the world we live in. Everything. But it is too easy for us to forget that means all the people too. People of other cultures, opinions, ethnicities, whatever, different countries. So, two concepts: Creation and that all of us belong to God.
2 for he founded it on the seas
and established it on the waters.
That's where it all began. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the elements that make up the oceans (water), pretty much provide the most critical elements to sustain life as we know it? I've heard it described as the molecule of life.
3 Who may ascend the mountain of the Lord?
Who may stand in his holy place?
I read this again as Salvation. Who will be saved?
4 The one who has clean hands and a pure heart,
who does not trust in an idol
or swear by a false god.
This verse introduces a new element that wasn't found in Psalm 15. Worshipping false Gods is not a good thing, if you want to be saved. So, how does this play into the concept that all religions are equal? That we hear so much from people?
5 They will receive blessing from the Lord
and vindication from God their Savior.
6 Such is the generation of those who seek him,
who seek your face, God of Jacob.
I love the Premise/Promise style that is so evident in Scripture. In the first 4 verses, He laid out the Premise, but here, He lays out His Promises.
Now, to me this clearly goes into a song of Worship.
7 Lift up your heads, you gates;
be lifted up, you ancient doors,
that the King of glory may come in.
8 Who is this King of glory?
The Lord strong and mighty,
the Lord mighty in battle.
9 Lift up your heads, you gates;
lift them up, you ancient doors,
that the King of glory may come in.
10 Who is he, this King of glory?
The Lord Almighty
he is the King of glory.
Dave, send me a Psalm and I will give it a try.
Highlights
- Brief collected facets of God
Summary
- God made the Earth
- Some criteria for saving
- An invocation of praise to God
Questions and Observations
1) This one has no particular single theme, covering three large topics briefly.
2) Verses 7-10 are stylistically interesting. They remind me rather of call-and-response type affirmations - more about catchiness than conveying concepts.
3) Compare verses 3-6 with Psalm 15, which is a fuller (but still not complete, as discussed) listing.
4) Dusty, you seem keen on the Psalms. Fancy taking a turn or two at summaries?
From the NIV:
1 The earth is the Lords, and everything in it,
the world, and all who live in it;
(Remember the Book of Psalms is God's Word set to lyrical music)
Another reminder the Lord created the world we live in. Everything. But it is too easy for us to forget that means all the people too. People of other cultures, opinions, ethnicities, whatever, different countries. So, two concepts: Creation and that all of us belong to God.
2 for he founded it on the seas
and established it on the waters.
That's where it all began. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the elements that make up the oceans (water), pretty much provide the most critical elements to sustain life as we know it? I've heard it described as the molecule of life.
3 Who may ascend the mountain of the Lord?
Who may stand in his holy place?
I read this again as Salvation. Who will be saved?
4 The one who has clean hands and a pure heart,
who does not trust in an idol
or swear by a false god.
This verse introduces a new element that wasn't found in Psalm 15. Worshipping false Gods is not a good thing, if you want to be saved. So, how does this play into the concept that all religions are equal? That we hear so much from people?
5 They will receive blessing from the Lord
and vindication from God their Savior.
6 Such is the generation of those who seek him,
who seek your face, God of Jacob.
I love the Premise/Promise style that is so evident in Scripture. In the first 4 verses, He laid out the Premise, but here, He lays out His Promises.
Now, to me this clearly goes into a song of Worship.
7 Lift up your heads, you gates;
be lifted up, you ancient doors,
that the King of glory may come in.
8 Who is this King of glory?
The Lord strong and mighty,
the Lord mighty in battle.
9 Lift up your heads, you gates;
lift them up, you ancient doors,
that the King of glory may come in.
10 Who is he, this King of glory?
The Lord Almighty
he is the King of glory.
Dave, send me a Psalm and I will give it a try.
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ttf_MoominDave
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Psalm 25 is the next one up. Here's the text, in the ESV, the version we're using. Just follow the sequence, and post as many as you want. Like I say, I'll be away from TTF for much of the next week, so don't expect busy feedback from me in that timeframe.
I suggest quoting an existing summary post, such as mine two above this one, deleting the quotes in it and modifying the content to fit the psalm you want to summarise - that's the way I usually do it, and it seems easiest, rather than typing out the headings and inserting the text link for each summary. Note that the text link needs modifying too - just change the chapter number in the two places its listed.
I suggest quoting an existing summary post, such as mine two above this one, deleting the quotes in it and modifying the content to fit the psalm you want to summarise - that's the way I usually do it, and it seems easiest, rather than typing out the headings and inserting the text link for each summary. Note that the text link needs modifying too - just change the chapter number in the two places its listed.
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ttf_hassein
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I have a humble question. Please help. I love to peruse the trombone forum,but for some reason I log on from time to time and have to scroll through page after page about the bible. What in the world does this have to do with the trombone? Why is this here?? Why don't the folks who have to dwell on these questions get their own site? It's absolutely silly that this is here.
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ttf_jalapeno
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This site is for anything.
Even devil worship
Or getting energy from rocks, like that Dunam chick
Ever heard of church music ?
Or how it's a big part of music history ?
Even devil worship
Or getting energy from rocks, like that Dunam chick
Ever heard of church music ?
Or how it's a big part of music history ?
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ttf_drizabone
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I've got the standard template saved as a text file as I find it easier to write the summaries use Notepad on windows and then paste it into the TTF text box.
Here it is. You'll need to quote this to get the format to show the "Psalm 3 text" and link. As Dave says, just change the 2 chapter numbers to match what you're working on.
Psalm 3 text
Highlights
-
Summary
-
Questions and Observations
1)
Here it is. You'll need to quote this to get the format to show the "Psalm 3 text" and link. As Dave says, just change the 2 chapter numbers to match what you're working on.
Psalm 3 text
Highlights
-
Summary
-
Questions and Observations
1)
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ttf_ddickerson
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Psalm 25 Text
Highlights
Prayer in the form of a poem, or song
Summary
I see this as a great example of Prayer
Questions
I have no questions
Observations
In a prayer to God, we have to connect with Him, lift ourselves up to Him. We must humble ourselves.
Praise Him, put our trust in Him. We have to confess that we are a sinner. We know what we're supposed to do, but we don't do it. We know what we not to do, but we do it anyway. Sound familiar? Paul expressed the same feelings.
"For the sake of your name, Lord, forgive my iniquity, though it is great."
"Who, then, are those who fear the Lord? He will instruct them in the ways they should choose."
"They will spend their days in prosperity, and their descendants will inherit the land."
Premise/Promise:
Again we speak of those who Fear the Lord - Premise. He will guide those and point them in the right path, they will spend their days in prosperity, He reminds them of the Covenant that He has made with them - Promise.
David concludes by asking forgiveness, mercy, graciousness, and concludes by asking God to look kindly on Israel, David's Kingdom.
Highlights
Prayer in the form of a poem, or song
Summary
I see this as a great example of Prayer
Questions
I have no questions
Observations
In a prayer to God, we have to connect with Him, lift ourselves up to Him. We must humble ourselves.
Praise Him, put our trust in Him. We have to confess that we are a sinner. We know what we're supposed to do, but we don't do it. We know what we not to do, but we do it anyway. Sound familiar? Paul expressed the same feelings.
"For the sake of your name, Lord, forgive my iniquity, though it is great."
"Who, then, are those who fear the Lord? He will instruct them in the ways they should choose."
"They will spend their days in prosperity, and their descendants will inherit the land."
Premise/Promise:
Again we speak of those who Fear the Lord - Premise. He will guide those and point them in the right path, they will spend their days in prosperity, He reminds them of the Covenant that He has made with them - Promise.
David concludes by asking forgiveness, mercy, graciousness, and concludes by asking God to look kindly on Israel, David's Kingdom.
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ttf_ddickerson
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Quote from: hassein on Nov 19, 2016, 07:04PMI have a humble question. Please help. I love to peruse the trombone forum,but for some reason I log on from time to time and have to scroll through page after page about the bible. What in the world does this have to do with the trombone? Why is this here?? Why don't the folks who have to dwell on these questions get their own site? It's absolutely silly that this is here.
First off, you don't have to scroll through page after page about the bible. You have a choice. Secondly, this thread is aptly named so that those that are NOT interested in scrolling page after page about the bible, don't have to.
The trombone forum is a community, and where there's a community, people like to get together and talk about a lot of things other than trombone, while they're resting their chops from hard practice. So, relax and search for those topics that do interest you, and enjoy this site. There is plenty for everyone.
First off, you don't have to scroll through page after page about the bible. You have a choice. Secondly, this thread is aptly named so that those that are NOT interested in scrolling page after page about the bible, don't have to.
The trombone forum is a community, and where there's a community, people like to get together and talk about a lot of things other than trombone, while they're resting their chops from hard practice. So, relax and search for those topics that do interest you, and enjoy this site. There is plenty for everyone.
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: hassein on Nov 19, 2016, 07:04PMI have a humble question. Please help. I love to peruse the trombone forum,but for some reason I log on from time to time and have to scroll through page after page about the bible. What in the world does this have to do with the trombone? Why is this here?? Why don't the folks who have to dwell on these questions get their own site? It's absolutely silly that this is here.
Hi Hassein,
we're glad to have you reading our thread, and it would be interesting to get your perspective on the text. But you don't need to read it if you don't want too.
cheers
Martin
Hi Hassein,
we're glad to have you reading our thread, and it would be interesting to get your perspective on the text. But you don't need to read it if you don't want too.
cheers
Martin
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ttf_hassein
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Actually I was hoping some tech savvy person would tell me how I could avoid it all together,but alas,no help from above.
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: hassein on Nov 20, 2016, 11:44AMActually I was hoping some tech savvy person would tell me how I could avoid it all together,but alas,no help from above.
It sounds like the tech savvy person above wants you to read it
It sounds like the tech savvy person above wants you to read it
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ttf_drizabone
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Psalm 26 text
Highlights
- Praying with a clear conscience
Summary
- vindicate and test me Lord.
- I do the right things
- I don't hang out with sinners
- I worship you
- I love being around you
- don't punish me with the sinners
- I will do the right things: redeem me Lord
Questions and Observations
1) I wouldn't be game to pray something like this because I know that I don't always do the right things
2) This sort of pray can come across as being self-righteous, "Look how good I am" but the Psalmist has examined his conscience and found that it is clear. He's also asking God to validate it, so I guess its ok.
3) Even though he's claiming a clear conscience he recognises the need for God to redeem him and be gracious to him.
Highlights
- Praying with a clear conscience
Summary
- vindicate and test me Lord.
- I do the right things
- I don't hang out with sinners
- I worship you
- I love being around you
- don't punish me with the sinners
- I will do the right things: redeem me Lord
Questions and Observations
1) I wouldn't be game to pray something like this because I know that I don't always do the right things
2) This sort of pray can come across as being self-righteous, "Look how good I am" but the Psalmist has examined his conscience and found that it is clear. He's also asking God to validate it, so I guess its ok.
3) Even though he's claiming a clear conscience he recognises the need for God to redeem him and be gracious to him.
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ttf_ddickerson
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In Psalm 26, speaking of his vindication from the Lord, you have to remember that many believed Salvation through works, and the follow through with the necessary rituals. While living a blameless life is important in the rewards and blessings one can receive, the peace that comes with living the blameless life, is not the process for Salvation.
However, in David's favor, earlier in Psalm 24 and Psalm 25 he did exhibit and illustrate the path for Salvation. There is no question that David is living right now in the Kingdom of God!
However, in David's favor, earlier in Psalm 24 and Psalm 25 he did exhibit and illustrate the path for Salvation. There is no question that David is living right now in the Kingdom of God!
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: ddickerson on Nov 20, 2016, 03:35PMIn Psalm 26, speaking of his vindication from the Lord, you have to remember that many believed Salvation through works, and the follow through with the necessary rituals. While living a blameless life is important in the rewards and blessings one can receive, the peace that comes with living the blameless life, is not the process for Salvation.
However, in David's favor, earlier in Psalm 24 and Psalm 25 he did exhibit and illustrate the path for Salvation. There is no question that David is living right now in the Kingdom of God!
Dusty,
Coming from just reading Job where he used vindication in the sense of getting his innocence verified, I can't help but think that David is using it in the same sense. So he's claiming to have a (relatively at least) clear conscience about his behavior. I don't think that he's thinking about whether or not he's saved. So I don't think that vindication would mean the same as justification as used in Romans for example. Do you agree?
However, in David's favor, earlier in Psalm 24 and Psalm 25 he did exhibit and illustrate the path for Salvation. There is no question that David is living right now in the Kingdom of God!
Dusty,
Coming from just reading Job where he used vindication in the sense of getting his innocence verified, I can't help but think that David is using it in the same sense. So he's claiming to have a (relatively at least) clear conscience about his behavior. I don't think that he's thinking about whether or not he's saved. So I don't think that vindication would mean the same as justification as used in Romans for example. Do you agree?
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ttf_ddickerson
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Yes, I can agree with you. David was going through a time where he was being attacked by Saul, had many enemies, and so here, he was pleading his case before God. It is a comfort to those that are falsely accused that they believe there is a righteous God, who, sooner or later, will clear up their innocence. We see this all the time today even in the opposite, when we see who we think are guilty, and skirt the law. We always say to ourselves, they may escape the law, but they will never escape what awaits them from our mighty God.
I got the sense of Salvation from his statements of spending eternity in Heaven. I think he was thinking that he might lose his salvation with all of his enemies stating making these charges against him, but he was admitting that he was a sinner, and that he recognized his sins.
I got the sense of Salvation from his statements of spending eternity in Heaven. I think he was thinking that he might lose his salvation with all of his enemies stating making these charges against him, but he was admitting that he was a sinner, and that he recognized his sins.
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ttf_MoominDave
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Quote from: hassein on Nov 19, 2016, 07:04PMI have a humble question. Please help. I love to peruse the trombone forum,but for some reason I log on from time to time and have to scroll through page after page about the bible. What in the world does this have to do with the trombone? Why is this here?? Why don't the folks who have to dwell on these questions get their own site? It's absolutely silly that this is here.
Hi Hassein, does this help?
1) Practical measures. PM a mod and ask them to put you in the "No Practice Break" group of users. Hey presto, no non-trombone content visible to you.
2) Understanding. Any community of people that come together over a topic will start to talk about other topics before long. In the absence of an off-topic section, any forum inevitably grows off-topic threads in on-topic sections. So the Practice Break serves a valuable function. Note that most who post in it are long-term contributors, and that some also contribute regularly on trombone topics. Others though long ago recognised that they had contributed all the trombone talk they had, but still enjoy the community. Among the most important general topics in life is religion, and so over the years a great deal of talk has been expended here on religious matters, some of it rather ill-naturedly. It seemed a nice idea to harness that interest and energy for a productive purpose, and so this thread was born. Does this help you understand why and how this thread came to be? It's explicitly intended for people of all religious positions - for example, I have contributed a lot and am an atheist.
Hi Hassein, does this help?
1) Practical measures. PM a mod and ask them to put you in the "No Practice Break" group of users. Hey presto, no non-trombone content visible to you.
2) Understanding. Any community of people that come together over a topic will start to talk about other topics before long. In the absence of an off-topic section, any forum inevitably grows off-topic threads in on-topic sections. So the Practice Break serves a valuable function. Note that most who post in it are long-term contributors, and that some also contribute regularly on trombone topics. Others though long ago recognised that they had contributed all the trombone talk they had, but still enjoy the community. Among the most important general topics in life is religion, and so over the years a great deal of talk has been expended here on religious matters, some of it rather ill-naturedly. It seemed a nice idea to harness that interest and energy for a productive purpose, and so this thread was born. Does this help you understand why and how this thread came to be? It's explicitly intended for people of all religious positions - for example, I have contributed a lot and am an atheist.
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ttf_MoominDave
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Regarding King David and Christian concepts of Salvation...
1) Authorship. It's not at all clear that David actually wrote these (see earlier discussion). Or even that David existed as anything like described in these books. Historicity even of this period has proven remarkably difficult to pin down.
2) Long time BC Judaic concepts of afterlife. Whether we're talking about a writer in the first person 1000 BC, or one in the third person say 600 BC for pre-exile or say 400 BC for post-exile, we need to be careful to avoid imposing specifically Christian interpretations on what's written. The afterlife has not seemed much of a formed concept at all by these dates, and the articulated formal heaven/hell set-up that goes with Christian ideas of Salvation has not appeared at all. All we've had are vague hints about Sheol, a place that seems to represent a kind of non-conscious storage area for no-longer-in-use human bits.
3) If we assume that these are the words of David, and that his belief in Yahweh was correct, and that there was some meaningful equivalent of Christian Heaven in his theology that he would have gone to... Then, how does Christian theology handle the changeover from Judaism to Christianity? Was he in Christian Heaven all along? Are Christian and Judaic heavens the same place? How do observant Jews feel about this?
1) Authorship. It's not at all clear that David actually wrote these (see earlier discussion). Or even that David existed as anything like described in these books. Historicity even of this period has proven remarkably difficult to pin down.
2) Long time BC Judaic concepts of afterlife. Whether we're talking about a writer in the first person 1000 BC, or one in the third person say 600 BC for pre-exile or say 400 BC for post-exile, we need to be careful to avoid imposing specifically Christian interpretations on what's written. The afterlife has not seemed much of a formed concept at all by these dates, and the articulated formal heaven/hell set-up that goes with Christian ideas of Salvation has not appeared at all. All we've had are vague hints about Sheol, a place that seems to represent a kind of non-conscious storage area for no-longer-in-use human bits.
3) If we assume that these are the words of David, and that his belief in Yahweh was correct, and that there was some meaningful equivalent of Christian Heaven in his theology that he would have gone to... Then, how does Christian theology handle the changeover from Judaism to Christianity? Was he in Christian Heaven all along? Are Christian and Judaic heavens the same place? How do observant Jews feel about this?
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ttf_timothy42b
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Quote from: MoominDave on Nov 21, 2016, 09:21AMRegarding King David and Christian concepts of Salvation...
Good comments.
dd is doing a good job of reviewing OT writings from a 21st century Christian perspective. That imposes an interpretation on the text that people of the period could not have formulated. That doesn't necessarily mean it is wrong, just that we have to be cautious, as you're pointing out.
To your question of the afterlife and potential salvation prior to a Savior, up to this point in the OT, there would not appear to be any support for the idea that the Chosen People were in need of salvation at all. Yeah, they became rebellious or failed to worship properly from time to time, and Yahweh would swat them pretty good, once even killing all life but one boatload, but usually just letting them lose battles. Punishment was immediate. Maybe dd will connect it up later.
Good comments.
dd is doing a good job of reviewing OT writings from a 21st century Christian perspective. That imposes an interpretation on the text that people of the period could not have formulated. That doesn't necessarily mean it is wrong, just that we have to be cautious, as you're pointing out.
To your question of the afterlife and potential salvation prior to a Savior, up to this point in the OT, there would not appear to be any support for the idea that the Chosen People were in need of salvation at all. Yeah, they became rebellious or failed to worship properly from time to time, and Yahweh would swat them pretty good, once even killing all life but one boatload, but usually just letting them lose battles. Punishment was immediate. Maybe dd will connect it up later.
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: MoominDave on Nov 21, 2016, 09:21AM3) If we assume that these are the words of David, and that his belief in Yahweh was correct, and that there was some meaningful equivalent of Christian Heaven in his theology that he would have gone to... Then, how does Christian theology handle the changeover from Judaism to Christianity? Was he in Christian Heaven all along? Are Christian and Judaic heavens the same place? How do observant Jews feel about this?
As I understand the situation, the NT is an extension of the OT: like the year 7 math curriculum is an extension of the year 6 math curriculum.
So I think that the afterlife and salvation were topics that were more fleshed out in the NT. The OT "saints" still trusted what God had said and were commended for that. In Hebrews 11 for example David and Abel, Enoch, Noah and Abraham are all given as examples of faith, who died without having received what they had been promised. The inference is that they will receive their promises after death.
How do we handle the changeover? I think its the same God saving people, giving them life and a home after death. I expect we'll be sharing the same heaven. I actually think that it will be earth rather than heaven, but that's a different story.
I've got no idea what Judaism feel about us pinching their promises.
As I understand the situation, the NT is an extension of the OT: like the year 7 math curriculum is an extension of the year 6 math curriculum.
So I think that the afterlife and salvation were topics that were more fleshed out in the NT. The OT "saints" still trusted what God had said and were commended for that. In Hebrews 11 for example David and Abel, Enoch, Noah and Abraham are all given as examples of faith, who died without having received what they had been promised. The inference is that they will receive their promises after death.
How do we handle the changeover? I think its the same God saving people, giving them life and a home after death. I expect we'll be sharing the same heaven. I actually think that it will be earth rather than heaven, but that's a different story.
I've got no idea what Judaism feel about us pinching their promises.
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ttf_drizabone
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Psalm 27 text
Highlights
- a prayer
Summary
- Confidence in the Lord affirmed
- prayer for security in the Lord
- another prayer for security in the Lord
- confidence in the Lord encouraged.
Questions and Observations
1) The psalmist starts of with some rhetorical questions indicating that he trusts the Lord and then tells where his trust has been confirmed.
2) he then goes on with some requests that the Lord will grant him access to his house, protection and victory over his enemies
3) he asks that he can see the Lord and that he will teach him his ways.
4) and then he encourages others to be strong and wait for the Lord too.
Highlights
- a prayer
Summary
- Confidence in the Lord affirmed
- prayer for security in the Lord
- another prayer for security in the Lord
- confidence in the Lord encouraged.
Questions and Observations
1) The psalmist starts of with some rhetorical questions indicating that he trusts the Lord and then tells where his trust has been confirmed.
2) he then goes on with some requests that the Lord will grant him access to his house, protection and victory over his enemies
3) he asks that he can see the Lord and that he will teach him his ways.
4) and then he encourages others to be strong and wait for the Lord too.
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ttf_drizabone
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Psalm 28 text
Highlights
- Prayer for strength and protection
Summary
- The psalmist calls out to the Lord for mercy
- He pleads that he not be punished like the wicked
- He wants them to be punished justly
- He praises the Lord for answering his prayer: for protecting him and his people
Questions and Observations
1) This and the Psalms 26 and 27 seem similar. Do you think that they might be written about the same situation. ie if it was David writing them, then it could have been when he was being pursued by Absalom.
Highlights
- Prayer for strength and protection
Summary
- The psalmist calls out to the Lord for mercy
- He pleads that he not be punished like the wicked
- He wants them to be punished justly
- He praises the Lord for answering his prayer: for protecting him and his people
Questions and Observations
1) This and the Psalms 26 and 27 seem similar. Do you think that they might be written about the same situation. ie if it was David writing them, then it could have been when he was being pursued by Absalom.
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ttf_timothy42b
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Quote from: drizabone on Nov 21, 2016, 12:23PMAs I understand the situation, the NT is an extension of the OT: like the year 7 math curriculum is an extension of the year 6 math curriculum.
So I think that the afterlife and salvation were topics that were more fleshed out in the NT.
We tend to read it as a complete narrative when it's not at all clear that is the case.
The concept of an afterlife seems to be something that developed slowly; there are hints in the OT but we might be misinterpreting. Judaism still does not have a definitive belief in it, as I understand it. I think the OT does support resurrection but that isn't the same thing.
The modern Christian concept of salvation depends on the idea that mankind was forever doomed, either because of The Fall or by his sinful nature. Nothing we've read so far supports this idea, so why would the Chosen People need a Savior? They needed a Messiah to win their wars. (We also haven't come to much about a Messiah, and that's because it's really not in the OT much, it's in the extraBiblical writings from the same period.) But in considering this a complete narrative with a beginning and end, like a modern novel, we project man's fallen nature onto the OT at some risk.
I can see why the ideas develop together though. If you don't have an afterlife, a spiritual savior does you little good; you need somebody right here, right now.
So I think that the afterlife and salvation were topics that were more fleshed out in the NT.
We tend to read it as a complete narrative when it's not at all clear that is the case.
The concept of an afterlife seems to be something that developed slowly; there are hints in the OT but we might be misinterpreting. Judaism still does not have a definitive belief in it, as I understand it. I think the OT does support resurrection but that isn't the same thing.
The modern Christian concept of salvation depends on the idea that mankind was forever doomed, either because of The Fall or by his sinful nature. Nothing we've read so far supports this idea, so why would the Chosen People need a Savior? They needed a Messiah to win their wars. (We also haven't come to much about a Messiah, and that's because it's really not in the OT much, it's in the extraBiblical writings from the same period.) But in considering this a complete narrative with a beginning and end, like a modern novel, we project man's fallen nature onto the OT at some risk.
I can see why the ideas develop together though. If you don't have an afterlife, a spiritual savior does you little good; you need somebody right here, right now.
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ttf_John the Theologian
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Quote from: MoominDave on Nov 21, 2016, 09:21AMRegarding King David and Christian concepts of Salvation...
1) Authorship. It's not at all clear that David actually wrote these (see earlier discussion). Or even that David existed as anything like described in these books. Historicity even of this period has proven remarkably difficult to pin down.
2) Long time BC Judaic concepts of afterlife. Whether we're talking about a writer in the first person 1000 BC, or one in the third person say 600 BC for pre-exile or say 400 BC for post-exile, we need to be careful to avoid imposing specifically Christian interpretations on what's written. The afterlife has not seemed much of a formed concept at all by these dates, and the articulated formal heaven/hell set-up that goes with Christian ideas of Salvation has not appeared at all. All we've had are vague hints about Sheol, a place that seems to represent a kind of non-conscious storage area for no-longer-in-use human bits.
3) If we assume that these are the words of David, and that his belief in Yahweh was correct, and that there was some meaningful equivalent of Christian Heaven in his theology that he would have gone to... Then, how does Christian theology handle the changeover from Judaism to Christianity? Was he in Christian Heaven all along? Are Christian and Judaic heavens the same place? How do observant Jews feel about this?
Dave, traditional Judaism has responded in a variety of ways to Christian interpretations of the idea of heaven and hell, but some of them aren't that far away from traditional Christian notions of Heaven and hell. Others, of course, are quite different. Christian theology, of the traditional type, has not been unanimous its interpretation of these texts-- traditional Protestants and Roman Catholics have some significant differences-- but they haven't been seen as a great problem to harmonize the OT and NT in this area. There are enough OT hints of an afterlife to make it work for Christian theologians. Other areas have been labor intensive to work out the harmonization of the OT and the NT, but there is a long history of serious thought and solutions to those questions. Just check out a traditionally oriented Systematic or Biblical Theology text-- the 2 are technically different theological disciplines-- to see how it has been done.
1) Authorship. It's not at all clear that David actually wrote these (see earlier discussion). Or even that David existed as anything like described in these books. Historicity even of this period has proven remarkably difficult to pin down.
2) Long time BC Judaic concepts of afterlife. Whether we're talking about a writer in the first person 1000 BC, or one in the third person say 600 BC for pre-exile or say 400 BC for post-exile, we need to be careful to avoid imposing specifically Christian interpretations on what's written. The afterlife has not seemed much of a formed concept at all by these dates, and the articulated formal heaven/hell set-up that goes with Christian ideas of Salvation has not appeared at all. All we've had are vague hints about Sheol, a place that seems to represent a kind of non-conscious storage area for no-longer-in-use human bits.
3) If we assume that these are the words of David, and that his belief in Yahweh was correct, and that there was some meaningful equivalent of Christian Heaven in his theology that he would have gone to... Then, how does Christian theology handle the changeover from Judaism to Christianity? Was he in Christian Heaven all along? Are Christian and Judaic heavens the same place? How do observant Jews feel about this?
Dave, traditional Judaism has responded in a variety of ways to Christian interpretations of the idea of heaven and hell, but some of them aren't that far away from traditional Christian notions of Heaven and hell. Others, of course, are quite different. Christian theology, of the traditional type, has not been unanimous its interpretation of these texts-- traditional Protestants and Roman Catholics have some significant differences-- but they haven't been seen as a great problem to harmonize the OT and NT in this area. There are enough OT hints of an afterlife to make it work for Christian theologians. Other areas have been labor intensive to work out the harmonization of the OT and the NT, but there is a long history of serious thought and solutions to those questions. Just check out a traditionally oriented Systematic or Biblical Theology text-- the 2 are technically different theological disciplines-- to see how it has been done.
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ttf_hassein
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Thanks Dave-just the info I was hoping for.
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: timothy42b on Nov 21, 2016, 12:57PMWe tend to read it as a complete narrative when it's not at all clear that is the case.
not sure about this: the NT is very much based on the OT, but with the clarifications that you mentioned.
QuoteThe concept of an afterlife seems to be something that developed slowly; there are hints in the OT but we might be misinterpreting. Judaism still does not have a definitive belief in it, as I understand it. I think the OT does support resurrection but that isn't the same thing.
I agree that an afterlife isn't mentioned explicitly: but what were you resurrected to, if it wasn't an afterlife?
Incidentally I reckon that there is a good case to be made in the NT that our afterlife will be on earth rather than floating around in clouds, but I'm still hoping to explore the whole universe. Who needs telescopes when you can just go and look for yourself.
QuoteThe modern Christian concept of salvation depends on the idea that mankind was forever doomed, either because of The Fall or by his sinful nature. Nothing we've read so far supports this idea, so why would the Chosen People need a Savior? They needed a Messiah to win their wars. (We also haven't come to much about a Messiah, and that's because it's really not in the OT much, it's in the extraBiblical writings from the same period.) But in considering this a complete narrative with a beginning and end, like a modern novel, we project man's fallen nature onto the OT at some risk.
Even though Original Sin isn't discussed as a principle: its pretty obvious from reading the OT that sin was endemic. We read that almost everyone mentioned in the OT sinned. I can only think of 3 people that didn't have sins mentioned and expect they were naughty at least a few times. But the idea of eternal judgment for the wicked doesn't seem to have been explicitly stated. I think the Jews thought that they were going to be blessed (whatever that meant) just because they were chosen and that the Gentiles were going to die (aka cease to exist) because they weren't chosen.
I agree that the OT Hebrews thought of a messiah as someone who could free them from their earthly enemies and win their national wars for them. Most of the Jews in the gospels had the same expectation when Jesus started preaching. Which was one reason why they couldn't see him as the Messiah.
But even though an afterlife wasn't mentioned explicitly I think that it is implicit in the promises made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
QuoteI can see why the ideas develop together though. If you don't have an afterlife, a spiritual savior does you little good; you need somebody right here, right now.
They do go together don't they.
not sure about this: the NT is very much based on the OT, but with the clarifications that you mentioned.
QuoteThe concept of an afterlife seems to be something that developed slowly; there are hints in the OT but we might be misinterpreting. Judaism still does not have a definitive belief in it, as I understand it. I think the OT does support resurrection but that isn't the same thing.
I agree that an afterlife isn't mentioned explicitly: but what were you resurrected to, if it wasn't an afterlife?
Incidentally I reckon that there is a good case to be made in the NT that our afterlife will be on earth rather than floating around in clouds, but I'm still hoping to explore the whole universe. Who needs telescopes when you can just go and look for yourself.
QuoteThe modern Christian concept of salvation depends on the idea that mankind was forever doomed, either because of The Fall or by his sinful nature. Nothing we've read so far supports this idea, so why would the Chosen People need a Savior? They needed a Messiah to win their wars. (We also haven't come to much about a Messiah, and that's because it's really not in the OT much, it's in the extraBiblical writings from the same period.) But in considering this a complete narrative with a beginning and end, like a modern novel, we project man's fallen nature onto the OT at some risk.
Even though Original Sin isn't discussed as a principle: its pretty obvious from reading the OT that sin was endemic. We read that almost everyone mentioned in the OT sinned. I can only think of 3 people that didn't have sins mentioned and expect they were naughty at least a few times. But the idea of eternal judgment for the wicked doesn't seem to have been explicitly stated. I think the Jews thought that they were going to be blessed (whatever that meant) just because they were chosen and that the Gentiles were going to die (aka cease to exist) because they weren't chosen.
I agree that the OT Hebrews thought of a messiah as someone who could free them from their earthly enemies and win their national wars for them. Most of the Jews in the gospels had the same expectation when Jesus started preaching. Which was one reason why they couldn't see him as the Messiah.
But even though an afterlife wasn't mentioned explicitly I think that it is implicit in the promises made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
QuoteI can see why the ideas develop together though. If you don't have an afterlife, a spiritual savior does you little good; you need somebody right here, right now.
They do go together don't they.
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ttf_ddickerson
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Remember, that with the view (that I have) or core principle of the Holy Trinity, God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are one. So, it makes sense that Salvation existed in the OT times as much as now.
Psalm 25:8-10:
8 O Lord, I love the habitation of your house
and the place where your glory dwells.
9 Do not sweep my soul away with sinners,
nor my life with bloodthirsty men,
10 in whose hands are evil devices,
and whose right hands are full of bribes.
These verses makes sense to me as a hint of what we view Heaven. David is speaking directly of the Lord's House in these and other verses. I see that as a hint that David believed that there was a special place in afterlife known as Heaven, even though he may have never called it Heaven, he definitely wanted to go there.
Jesus comes along later and calls it Heaven, but I believe they are the one and same.
Psalm 25:8-10:
8 O Lord, I love the habitation of your house
and the place where your glory dwells.
9 Do not sweep my soul away with sinners,
nor my life with bloodthirsty men,
10 in whose hands are evil devices,
and whose right hands are full of bribes.
These verses makes sense to me as a hint of what we view Heaven. David is speaking directly of the Lord's House in these and other verses. I see that as a hint that David believed that there was a special place in afterlife known as Heaven, even though he may have never called it Heaven, he definitely wanted to go there.
Jesus comes along later and calls it Heaven, but I believe they are the one and same.
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ttf_drizabone
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Psalm 29 text
Highlights
- Give glory to God
Summary
- Credit glory to the Lord because his voice:
- is louder than thunder
- causes earthquakes
- flashes forth in flames of fire
- makes the deer give birth
- and strips the forset bare
Please look after us
Questions and Observations
1) I'm pretty sure these are mostly metaphors, although he spoke creation in Genesis so its a pretty powerful voice
2) And we're supposed to get the idea the God is powerful, not just his voice.
Highlights
- Give glory to God
Summary
- Credit glory to the Lord because his voice:
- is louder than thunder
- causes earthquakes
- flashes forth in flames of fire
- makes the deer give birth
- and strips the forset bare
Please look after us
Questions and Observations
1) I'm pretty sure these are mostly metaphors, although he spoke creation in Genesis so its a pretty powerful voice
2) And we're supposed to get the idea the God is powerful, not just his voice.
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ttf_ddickerson
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Psalm 29 Thoughts:
This is a song of praise!
In fact, I'll bet a donut that this might have been the inspiration for a Phillips, Craig and Dean song:
"The Voice of the Lord"
by Phillips, Craig and Dean | from the album Let My Words Be Few
Lyrics:
Whose voice is this, that is over the water?
That thunders and shakes the mountains and plains
Whose voice is this, which skips cross the desert?
The wiled that sings at the sound of your name
Who voice if full of wonder
And majesty untold
Who voice is this that is calling the nation
To rise up and praise you with great shouts of joy
And whose voice that has called me from darkness
And chose me before the foundation was laid
Whose voice in this, that calls me beloved
And tells me I'm free, and my debt has been paid
Who voice if full of wonder
And majesty untold
And whose voice is this that is calling his children
To rise up and praise him with great shouts of joy
The voice of the Lord I calling his children
The voice of the Lord is shaking the earth
The voice of the Lord echoes like thunder
Is awesome in glory
Hear; hear the voice of the Lord
Yeah, yeah
Let those who have an end
Hear his mighty voice
His voice is deep inside my soul
The voice of the Lord I calling his children
The voice of the Lord is shaking the earth
The voice of the Lord echoes like thunder
Is awesome in glory
Hear
The voice of the Lord is calling His children
The voice of the Lord is shaking the earth
The voice of the Lord echoes like thunder
Is awesome in glory
Hear; hear the voice of the Lord
Hear; hear the voice of the Lord
Yeah, yeah
This is a song of praise!
In fact, I'll bet a donut that this might have been the inspiration for a Phillips, Craig and Dean song:
"The Voice of the Lord"
by Phillips, Craig and Dean | from the album Let My Words Be Few
Lyrics:
Whose voice is this, that is over the water?
That thunders and shakes the mountains and plains
Whose voice is this, which skips cross the desert?
The wiled that sings at the sound of your name
Who voice if full of wonder
And majesty untold
Who voice is this that is calling the nation
To rise up and praise you with great shouts of joy
And whose voice that has called me from darkness
And chose me before the foundation was laid
Whose voice in this, that calls me beloved
And tells me I'm free, and my debt has been paid
Who voice if full of wonder
And majesty untold
And whose voice is this that is calling his children
To rise up and praise him with great shouts of joy
The voice of the Lord I calling his children
The voice of the Lord is shaking the earth
The voice of the Lord echoes like thunder
Is awesome in glory
Hear; hear the voice of the Lord
Yeah, yeah
Let those who have an end
Hear his mighty voice
His voice is deep inside my soul
The voice of the Lord I calling his children
The voice of the Lord is shaking the earth
The voice of the Lord echoes like thunder
Is awesome in glory
Hear
The voice of the Lord is calling His children
The voice of the Lord is shaking the earth
The voice of the Lord echoes like thunder
Is awesome in glory
Hear; hear the voice of the Lord
Hear; hear the voice of the Lord
Yeah, yeah
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ttf_drizabone
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a whole donut!
nice song.
nice song.
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ttf_timothy42b
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Quote from: drizabone on Nov 21, 2016, 02:41PMI agree that the OT Hebrews thought of a messiah as someone who could free them from their earthly enemies and win their national wars for them.
I'm currently reading Sapiens, by Harari.
https://www.amazon.com/Sapiens-Humankind-Yuval-Noah-Harari/dp/0062316095
He has a different take, and my version is at least overly simplistic and maybe even wrong, if he's on the right track.
I just came to this part last night so I'm still thinking about it.
But he says polytheist gods didn't develop so much because of war, but of agriculture. Prior to that, hunter gatherers did not see the clean distinction between humans and animals/plants, they related to them as equals. After agriculture, humans became superior and needed to control plants and animals - but it isn't completely possible. Diseases, weather, etc., mean control isn't perfect. The purpose of gods is to intercede with nature which is now a separate concept from man, unlike before.
He also says that pretty much all polytheist religions include an all powerful superior being but That One is aloof and distant, uninterested in mundane human affairs; that's why people have their local deities to pray to.
I'm currently reading Sapiens, by Harari.
https://www.amazon.com/Sapiens-Humankind-Yuval-Noah-Harari/dp/0062316095
He has a different take, and my version is at least overly simplistic and maybe even wrong, if he's on the right track.
I just came to this part last night so I'm still thinking about it.
But he says polytheist gods didn't develop so much because of war, but of agriculture. Prior to that, hunter gatherers did not see the clean distinction between humans and animals/plants, they related to them as equals. After agriculture, humans became superior and needed to control plants and animals - but it isn't completely possible. Diseases, weather, etc., mean control isn't perfect. The purpose of gods is to intercede with nature which is now a separate concept from man, unlike before.
He also says that pretty much all polytheist religions include an all powerful superior being but That One is aloof and distant, uninterested in mundane human affairs; that's why people have their local deities to pray to.
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ttf_drizabone
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Quote from: timothy42b on Nov 22, 2016, 05:08AMI'm currently reading Sapiens, by Harari.
https://www.amazon.com/Sapiens-Humankind-Yuval-Noah-Harari/dp/0062316095
Looks interesting
https://www.amazon.com/Sapiens-Humankind-Yuval-Noah-Harari/dp/0062316095
Looks interesting
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ttf_drizabone
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Psalm 30 text
Highlights
- Gratefulness for answered prayer
Summary
- The Psalmist praises the Lord for saving his life and that his favour last longer than his anger
- He promises to remain the Lord's forever
- He asks that he remain alive so that he can continue praising the Lord
- He thanks the Lord for turning his mourning into glad dancing.
Questions and Observations
1) An interesting claim that the Lord has restored the Psalmist to life. How does that fit in with our discussion of afterlife?
2) I think its probably a figure of speech: that David was saved from a dire position where it looked like he would die.
Highlights
- Gratefulness for answered prayer
Summary
- The Psalmist praises the Lord for saving his life and that his favour last longer than his anger
- He promises to remain the Lord's forever
- He asks that he remain alive so that he can continue praising the Lord
- He thanks the Lord for turning his mourning into glad dancing.
Questions and Observations
1) An interesting claim that the Lord has restored the Psalmist to life. How does that fit in with our discussion of afterlife?
2) I think its probably a figure of speech: that David was saved from a dire position where it looked like he would die.
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ttf_drizabone
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Psalm 31 text
Highlights
- Praying under stress
Summary
- The Psalmist says that he relies on God to rescue and protect him and prays that God will rescue and protect him.
- He describes how the Lord has done this in the past
- He contrasts worthless idols with the the reliability of the Lords love
- He asks for grace in his distress as people plot against him
- He says how he relies on the Lord and asks the Lord not to make this reliance worthless
- He says how good the Lord is to him
- He urges others to love and trust the Lord because he is worthy
Questions and Observations
1) I'm much more likely to pray when life is tough than when life is cruisy.
Highlights
- Praying under stress
Summary
- The Psalmist says that he relies on God to rescue and protect him and prays that God will rescue and protect him.
- He describes how the Lord has done this in the past
- He contrasts worthless idols with the the reliability of the Lords love
- He asks for grace in his distress as people plot against him
- He says how he relies on the Lord and asks the Lord not to make this reliance worthless
- He says how good the Lord is to him
- He urges others to love and trust the Lord because he is worthy
Questions and Observations
1) I'm much more likely to pray when life is tough than when life is cruisy.
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ttf_drizabone
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Psalm 32 text
Highlights
- the blessing of forgiveness
Summary
- Those whose sin is forgiven are blessed.
- I was miserable until I acknowledged my sin: and when I did you forgave me
- So everyone should do this.
- You protect me.
- You guide me
- The wicked are miserable but I rejoice in your love.
Questions and Observations
1) This psalm gets pretty close to talking about our sinful nature, forgiveness and trust. It might not lay the thesis out as clear legal principles like Paul in Romans, but its there in different language. Those whose sin is forgiven are blessed. Implies those whose sin isn't forgiven are not.
2) Does this Psalm describe David's experience after he killed Joab and committed adultery with Bathsheba?
3) Interesting to compare the last couple of verses with Job. Discuss.
Highlights
- the blessing of forgiveness
Summary
- Those whose sin is forgiven are blessed.
- I was miserable until I acknowledged my sin: and when I did you forgave me
- So everyone should do this.
- You protect me.
- You guide me
- The wicked are miserable but I rejoice in your love.
Questions and Observations
1) This psalm gets pretty close to talking about our sinful nature, forgiveness and trust. It might not lay the thesis out as clear legal principles like Paul in Romans, but its there in different language. Those whose sin is forgiven are blessed. Implies those whose sin isn't forgiven are not.
2) Does this Psalm describe David's experience after he killed Joab and committed adultery with Bathsheba?
3) Interesting to compare the last couple of verses with Job. Discuss.
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ttf_ddickerson
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Reminds me of "Forgive me Lord as I forgive others who may trespass against me." (Paraphrased)
Great advice for a peaceful life.
Great advice for a peaceful life.
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ttf_drizabone
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Psalm 33 text
Highlights
- the love and power of the Lord
Summary
- The good guys should praise the Lord because he is good, faithful, loves justice and righteousness and created the world
- Everyone should fear him because he created the world, thwarts nations, sees everything and is able to overcome all weapons
- The Lord looks out for those who fear and love him
- we wait for the Lord who is our help and shield, because we trust him.
Questions and Observations
1) Its interesting that we are to both love and fear God. I never really got this until I read Narnia and saw how he used the wild lion Aslan to depict God, and not a domesticated animal.
Highlights
- the love and power of the Lord
Summary
- The good guys should praise the Lord because he is good, faithful, loves justice and righteousness and created the world
- Everyone should fear him because he created the world, thwarts nations, sees everything and is able to overcome all weapons
- The Lord looks out for those who fear and love him
- we wait for the Lord who is our help and shield, because we trust him.
Questions and Observations
1) Its interesting that we are to both love and fear God. I never really got this until I read Narnia and saw how he used the wild lion Aslan to depict God, and not a domesticated animal.
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ttf_ddickerson
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Quote from: drizabone on Nov 23, 2016, 04:34PMPsalm 33 text
Highlights
- the love and power of the Lord
Summary
- The good guys should praise the Lord because he is good, faithful, loves justice and righteousness and created the world
- Everyone should fear him because he created the world, thwarts nations, sees everything and is able to overcome all weapons
- The Lord looks out for those who fear and love him
- we wait for the Lord who is our help and shield, because we trust him.
Questions and Observations
1) Its interesting that we are to both love and fear God. I never really got this until I read Narnia and saw how he used the wild lion Aslan to depict God, and not a domesticated animal.
I think this fear is different than the fear you would have if a criminal was pointing a gun at your head threatening to shoot you, or, if you were zip lining over a large canyon, and you didn't trust the lines. Panicked might be a good description of that kind of fear.
However, what if circumstances, without your prior knowledge, put you in front of your all time favorite famous professional trombone player, and you had to play a solo for him? That fear would exist because of the respect you would have for the guy/girl that you revere so much. If it was just your friend, no problem.
Multiply that by 700 times 700 if you had to stand before God, assuming of course that you believe in God. If you believe that there is no God, then you would believe that it's no problem. Just a solo in front of some dude or whatever.
So, this fear would exist IF you actually believe in God, and that God is real. A sign that you're a believer.
"18 Behold, the eye of the Lord is on those who fear him,
on those who hope in his steadfast love,
19 that he may deliver their soul from death
and keep them alive in famine."
Premise/Promise:
The Premise: For those who fear Him, to those who hope in His steadfast love
The Promise: The eye of the Lord is on you, that you're soul will be saved from death
Highlights
- the love and power of the Lord
Summary
- The good guys should praise the Lord because he is good, faithful, loves justice and righteousness and created the world
- Everyone should fear him because he created the world, thwarts nations, sees everything and is able to overcome all weapons
- The Lord looks out for those who fear and love him
- we wait for the Lord who is our help and shield, because we trust him.
Questions and Observations
1) Its interesting that we are to both love and fear God. I never really got this until I read Narnia and saw how he used the wild lion Aslan to depict God, and not a domesticated animal.
I think this fear is different than the fear you would have if a criminal was pointing a gun at your head threatening to shoot you, or, if you were zip lining over a large canyon, and you didn't trust the lines. Panicked might be a good description of that kind of fear.
However, what if circumstances, without your prior knowledge, put you in front of your all time favorite famous professional trombone player, and you had to play a solo for him? That fear would exist because of the respect you would have for the guy/girl that you revere so much. If it was just your friend, no problem.
Multiply that by 700 times 700 if you had to stand before God, assuming of course that you believe in God. If you believe that there is no God, then you would believe that it's no problem. Just a solo in front of some dude or whatever.
So, this fear would exist IF you actually believe in God, and that God is real. A sign that you're a believer.
"18 Behold, the eye of the Lord is on those who fear him,
on those who hope in his steadfast love,
19 that he may deliver their soul from death
and keep them alive in famine."
Premise/Promise:
The Premise: For those who fear Him, to those who hope in His steadfast love
The Promise: The eye of the Lord is on you, that you're soul will be saved from death
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ttf_drizabone
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Psalm 34 text
Highlights
- An ABC for crisis.
Summary
- David commits to ceaseless praise of the Lord
- shared testimony to the glory of God
- reasons for testimony
- fear of God is the way to a good life
- when you're suffering cry to God for help
- the Lord will deliver the righteous
Questions and Observations
1) This is an acrostic poem in Hebrew, mostly. Apparently one letter is missing and 1 is repeated. Maybe indicating that lifes troubles cannot be completely catalogued. Or maybe something else.
Highlights
- An ABC for crisis.
Summary
- David commits to ceaseless praise of the Lord
- shared testimony to the glory of God
- reasons for testimony
- fear of God is the way to a good life
- when you're suffering cry to God for help
- the Lord will deliver the righteous
Questions and Observations
1) This is an acrostic poem in Hebrew, mostly. Apparently one letter is missing and 1 is repeated. Maybe indicating that lifes troubles cannot be completely catalogued. Or maybe something else.
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ttf_drizabone
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Psalm 35 text
Highlights
- Prayer for undeserved suffering
Summary
- The Psalmist asks God to intervene for him :
- against those who attack him without cause
- against undeserved attack: and asks how long before his prayer will be answered
- against malicious attack: and vindicate him
- and then his friends will rejoice with him
Questions and Observations
1) Do you see more echoes of Job?
2) This seems an emotional outpouring rather than a reasoned discourse.
3) David doesn't seem to have heard of love your enemies
Highlights
- Prayer for undeserved suffering
Summary
- The Psalmist asks God to intervene for him :
- against those who attack him without cause
- against undeserved attack: and asks how long before his prayer will be answered
- against malicious attack: and vindicate him
- and then his friends will rejoice with him
Questions and Observations
1) Do you see more echoes of Job?
2) This seems an emotional outpouring rather than a reasoned discourse.
3) David doesn't seem to have heard of love your enemies
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ttf_drizabone
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Psalm 36 text
Highlights
- contrast between evil doers and the Lord
Summary
- the wicked don't fear God and don't think that they will be caught
- God's love and judgements are vast: he protects and provides in abundance
- keep loving those who know you, do not let me become arrogant or leave you
- the evildoers are fallen
Questions and Observations
1)
Highlights
- contrast between evil doers and the Lord
Summary
- the wicked don't fear God and don't think that they will be caught
- God's love and judgements are vast: he protects and provides in abundance
- keep loving those who know you, do not let me become arrogant or leave you
- the evildoers are fallen
Questions and Observations
1)
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ttf_drizabone
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Psalm 37 text
Highlights
- Don't be envious of the wicked
Summary
- don't be envious of wrongdoers because they will fade
- trust in the Lord because he will give you your hearts desires
- the wicked plots against the righteous but the Lord laughs at him for their day is coming
- The Lord will look after the righteous
- the wicked don't repay their debts, but the righteous are generous
- turn away from evil and do good
Questions and Observations
1) I think the assumption in v3 is that the desires of the good heart are good.
2) I'm still comparing the Psalms with Job. In Psalms
- the wicked may prosper for a while but they will eventually be judged
- mostly the righteous are looked after but they are not completely protected from suffering (v24) and they woudn't need the warning about being envious of the wicked would they?
3) this another partial acrostic too.
Highlights
- Don't be envious of the wicked
Summary
- don't be envious of wrongdoers because they will fade
- trust in the Lord because he will give you your hearts desires
- the wicked plots against the righteous but the Lord laughs at him for their day is coming
- The Lord will look after the righteous
- the wicked don't repay their debts, but the righteous are generous
- turn away from evil and do good
Questions and Observations
1) I think the assumption in v3 is that the desires of the good heart are good.
2) I'm still comparing the Psalms with Job. In Psalms
- the wicked may prosper for a while but they will eventually be judged
- mostly the righteous are looked after but they are not completely protected from suffering (v24) and they woudn't need the warning about being envious of the wicked would they?
3) this another partial acrostic too.
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ttf_drizabone
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Psalm 38 text
Highlights
- Divine anger: Divine salvation
Summary
- O Lord don't rebuke me anymore
- my sin is making me feel like I am wasting away with disease
- O Lord you know everything about me: how my body is failing, friends shun me and enemies seek to kill me
- I have no words except for you: and I pray that you won't allow my enemies to rejoice over my suffering
- I know I have done wrong and am ready to fall: but my foes render me evil for good
- O Lord help me, do not forsake me.
Questions and Observations
1) Did you notice the contrast between vv1,2 and vv 21,22. It is the same God who gets angry and who saves. It is only the favour of the Lord that delivers us from his anger.
Highlights
- Divine anger: Divine salvation
Summary
- O Lord don't rebuke me anymore
- my sin is making me feel like I am wasting away with disease
- O Lord you know everything about me: how my body is failing, friends shun me and enemies seek to kill me
- I have no words except for you: and I pray that you won't allow my enemies to rejoice over my suffering
- I know I have done wrong and am ready to fall: but my foes render me evil for good
- O Lord help me, do not forsake me.
Questions and Observations
1) Did you notice the contrast between vv1,2 and vv 21,22. It is the same God who gets angry and who saves. It is only the favour of the Lord that delivers us from his anger.
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ttf_drizabone
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Psalm 39 text
Highlights
- When will I die
Summary
- I won't say anything because I don't want to say the wrong thing
- But U coulde stay silent no longer
- O Lord: When will I die?
- You are my hope.
- Don't make my foes scorn me bevause of my punishements
- when you punish we are as fragile as a breathe.
- O Lord, don't keep your peace from me, I am your guest, look after me.
Questions and Observations
1) I think that the last couple of verses refer to the idea of Deut 10:19 where the commandment is to love the stranger in the land like God loved them.
2) I don't think that the Psalmist is as worried about dieing but is more concerned that if he dies from his punishment people will ridicule him for his trust in God.
Highlights
- When will I die
Summary
- I won't say anything because I don't want to say the wrong thing
- But U coulde stay silent no longer
- O Lord: When will I die?
- You are my hope.
- Don't make my foes scorn me bevause of my punishements
- when you punish we are as fragile as a breathe.
- O Lord, don't keep your peace from me, I am your guest, look after me.
Questions and Observations
1) I think that the last couple of verses refer to the idea of Deut 10:19 where the commandment is to love the stranger in the land like God loved them.
2) I don't think that the Psalmist is as worried about dieing but is more concerned that if he dies from his punishment people will ridicule him for his trust in God.