Tuning in slide opinions?

[aasavickas]

I know this is an old idea that is starting to come back. I've never played one but theoretically it makes a little sense. With the difference between conical and cylindrical brass. I wonder if going for a more conical build if the horn doesn't get to sounding less like a trombone and more like a bad approximation of a euphonium. It seems like there was this stupid trend in the 90's where bells got heavier, dual bores, larger bores, etc. The effect was an overly dark air hog horn that was all fundamental no brilliance and no projection. I'm exaggerating a bit to make a point but I think you know what I'm saying.

Now, it seems like everyone wants lightweight slides(carbon fiber or removing sleeves, etc).

I like the idea of getting a horn, especially a bass that sounds like a trombone rather than a bad approximation of a tuba. But I wonder if the move to try to make the horn more conical will move the horn's sound in that direction. Obviously, the folks who like the feel fo a lightweight slide will dislike the added weight. Personally, so long as it is in perfect operating shape, I don't mind a heavier feel.

I know on altos TIS seems to really help get the horn to play in tune and helps with lining up partials, does it make a positive difference on tenors and basses too?

Of course, everything affects everything. Just curious what folks who have tried them think and why folks that switched over to them think they get in the deal as far as trade offs. What is better what is worse.

[hyperbolica]

I've got 2 TIS basses, a Kanstul 1662i and an Olds S-20 with dual valves. These horns couldn't be more different from one another. The Kanstul has a very dark, velvety sound some of my section mates love, but I'm kind of with you on that it's maybe a bit woofy or slide-euphonium. It's light for a bass, and has a very light TIS mechanism. It's really hard to make it Bark like a trombone.

The Olds has a smaller 9" bell, smaller 554/565 dual bore slide, and the slide is the heaviest I've ever used. I had to have double valves grafted on because that combo of features only comes with a single valve. But the horn plays (sounds) like a trombone. It has Bark.

I'm not trying to draw a relationship between the weight and the sound or the TIS and the sound. I suppose there are other factors that are driving the sound on each horn.

[harrisonreed]

I don't have TIS, but I have cut my 36H about .5 inches, and never pull the slide at all. I also play with all my tenors pushed all the way in and wish some of them had been ordered cut before they were built. I think playing long on the slide (which is half of what TIS actually is) makes any horn work better.

The TIS mechanism, however, will do sort of the opposite of a carbon slide or light slide. It's gonna be the heaviest slide of all time, as you know from your alto. That alone makes it not worth it, at least to me.

I remember someone on the old forum had a TIS rath bell section, but mated to a normal slide. So he had pure TIS. I actually like that idea.

[elmsandr]

I have a M&W TIS Bass slide that they made for a Conn Fuchs I am working on bringing back to life that you can try on any Bach or Shires taper receiver that you have if you want to come over and play. It is an amazing slide and I do not know how much of that is directly attributed to the TIS, but I like this slide so much I have actually been pretty lazy on working on the bell section of the Fuchs and just play this on my Bachs. The rest of the horn isn't optimized for this, but man, it just works.

Cheers,
Andy

[Jimkinkella]

I have a few TIS HORNS, from .500 bore through .562, from 1927 through modern.
Personally I love them, nothing sounding like a slide tuba in the bunch.
I tend to prefer heavier slides, so the weight doesnt bother me, and if set up correctly no real decrease in speed.
I don't find them to be darker, but more responsive since there's less mass, less bracing, and fewer connections on the bell.

[timothy42b]

I remember someone on the old forum had a TIS rath bell section, but mated to a normal slide. So he had pure TIS. I actually like that idea.

I do too. As long as your bell is short enough for the highest pitch you'll encounter, you can do all your tuning with the slide hand.

This requires a long slide arm, which gives you another advantage: you can pull the slide off the end to dump condensation, thereby eliminating the water key and the disruption of air flow past that point.

[Jgittleson]

I do that on 2 of my horns and is honestly fine. In my case its because i didnt make the TIS yet, but i havent had an issue as is.

[aasavickas]

What do you folks think about the tuning issues associated with playing with a traditional horn but with the tuning slide either all the way like Harrison was talking about or those guys who play with the tuning slide almost all the way out?

It seems to me that each horn will have a sweet spot in which the horn really resonates and if say the pitch of the group goes either way high or way low, that having that tuning slide way out or way in makes the horn a little dull. Now that I'm typing this, I don't think this makes theoretical sense. I'm sure one of the tech guys on here with a good ear or an engineer will correct chime in to set me straight.

Funny some mentioned the idea of just using a regular slide with a bell section with no tuning slide. Most of my playing life I would just put the tuning slide out about half an inch or so, so that the Bb is about half inch or so down from the bumper so that I have some room to raise a 1st position note that needs to go that way. Then make leave the tuning slide in the same spot.I really prefer to do the fine tuning with the rather large tuning slide in my right hand.

That said, I'm a little skeptical of the idea that avoiding the slight distortion that a tuning slide on the bell section makes that big of a difference. Granted, everything affects everything and there can be some magic when all the variables come together and just works right. But it just seems like such a small thing...but who knows. I suppose having a bell section that is just one continuous piece of joined brass might be a bit more resonant than having a tuning slide but it seems to me the further you get away from the mouthpiece the less difference in equipment changes the sound and the bell is pretty far from the buzz.

[timothy42b]

That said, I'm a little skeptical of the idea that avoiding the slight distortion that a tuning slide on the bell section makes that big of a difference. Granted, everything affects everything and there can be some magic when all the variables come together and just works right. But it just seems like such a small thing...but who knows.

Yeah, I don't know either. It seems to me that if you had the perfect tuning slide spot while in first position, there's no reason to expect it would also be perfect in sixth, if the ration of conicity has anything to do with it.

I think it's a deduction from the fact that some TIS horns play very well, but that may have nothing to do with the cause. Or, everything. who knows? not me.

[mrdeacon]

I wish I could play with my tuning slide all the way in but my arm is literally too shoot to do that! If I push my tuning slide all the way in and my 7th position and flat 7th are not usable.

Don't forget guys there is a 2nd type of TIS!!! You can have a Williams style J bend tuning slide.

You get the benefits of having the constant bell taper of TIS but without having to have a heavy or long slide with the TIS mechanism. The only drawbacks are some of the biggest positives. You can only have this option for Single or Dependent bass trombones and you don't have the heavy slide! For some horns that heavy slide makes all the difference.

Works amazing with my Minick bass. I wish more makers would explore this option, especially for bass trombone. When I get around to buying a custom MW or Rath bass it's going to be an option I'd like to explore.

[BGuttman]

Older TIS trombones get to be very nose-heavy without a good counterweight. The Conn 38/40/42H had a brace with a counterweight on it. I have a King from 1930 that is almost unplayable because the slide is so much heavier than the bell. I also have a very heavy counterweight on my Olds TIS that improves its playing dramatically.

Does TIS make a huge difference? No more than Reversed Tuning Slide (at least for me).

[hyperbolica]

You can get another opinion on TIS at the Horn Guys site, in their descriptions of a couple Kanstul trombones - the 1662 and the 1688.

The reason we have tunung slides at all is to put positions in a familiar muscle memory location, to allow us to play fast and in tune. Tuning every note with your ears is reactive, so you have to play, evaluate, and adjust, which takes additional time and attention. Placing positions in predictable places allows players with experience on a particular horn to primarily trust their experience/muscle memory. It frees up some brain power to read music, direct expression, listen to other players, articulate, subdivide, etc. Eliminating a tuning slide is just throwing away an advantage we have.

The Kanstul TIS is light, and mechanically works well. They only seem to put it on larger horns. I like it on the 1662. To me the biggest disadvantage is that the back bow - probably the most frequently damaged part of the instrument - becomes even more difficult to repair when it is soldered into the bell.

[timothy42b]

Older TIS trombones get to be very nose-heavy without a good counterweight.

Maybe that explains why they play well for some people - the weight pulls the chop setting down to where they need to be. It might have nothing to do with physics or acoustics at all.

[elmsandr]

I have often thought that it may have more to do with this than perhaps anything acoustic in the horn. That said, I do not feel good on any lightweight slide I've ever played. Brass or nickel, I just seem to lose control and center of pitches. I am, as always, convinced that this is an issue with me as a player, but I've also given up any pretense of solving that problem, so I just stick with my slides that are a little heavier, little more solid and I like the response better. Again, I'm not even using the TIS slide that I have as a TIS slide (although I do have it out a bit to match the length of a Bach slide). It just sounds great and works great, so I don't think too hard about it. Trying to figure it out didn't work for me, so i just blow in the little end.

Cheers,
Andy

[hyperbolica]

... so i just blow in the little end.

Damn, I knew I was doing something wrong!

[JohnL]

If you wanted the lightest possible TIS slide, you could eliminate the adjustment screw and extra brace(s) entirely and go with just a clamping device on one of the sleeves. I've got an Olds bass that is set up that way, and Earl Williams built a few tenors like that. Of course, you've still got the weight of the sleeves, plus whatever minimal mass the clamping system adds. You've also got a slide that can easily be thrown out of line, and you have to be careful to get the clamping device tight but not too tight. There was probably a reason Earl abandoned the concept early on...

Don't forget guys there is a 2nd type of TIS!!! You can have a Williams style J bend tuning slide.

That doesn't change the proportion of tapered vs. untapered tubing. It does move the small leg of the tuning slide down next to the tenon, which will give you a j-bend with a continuous taper, but there's still the large leg of the tuning slide breaking up the taper.

Now here's something to chew on:
What's the impact of the distribution of mass? Putting a tuning slide in a bell section adds mass. You've got two layers of metal, plus some ferrules and solder. Probably a brace of two, as well - and adding braces also changes the response of a bell.

[doctortrombone]

If you wanted the lightest possible TIS slide, you could eliminate the adjustment screw and extra brace(s) entirely and go with just a clamping device on one of the sleeves. I've got an Olds bass that is set up that way, and Earl Williams built a few tenors like that. Of course, you've still got the weight of the sleeves, plus whatever minimal mass the clamping system adds. You've also got a slide that can easily be thrown out of line, and you have to be careful to get the clamping device tight but not too tight. There was probably a reason Earl abandoned the concept early on...

BTDT. I built a soprano slide with no extra brace, figuring the adjustment screw wasn't needed since there wasn't enough mass in the slide to affect any change in the tuning even under hard slams into first. What I found was that any attempt to use the tuning mechanism pushed the slide tubes out of parallel.

There's a lot of discussion of the added mass, but really, all you're adding is one thin brace, two flanges or small oversleeves, and a thin threaded rod with two nuts. That probably doesn't add more than an ounce, if even that.

[TheBoneRanger]

Now here's something to chew on:
What's the impact of the distribution of mass?

Proponents of tuning-in-slide will tell you that this is where much of the magic lies.

Heavy slide + light bell = magic.

The TIS Kanstul basses that I have tried have very light slide mechanisms in comparison to, say, a Greenhoe. As a result, I think it loses much of the magic of great TIS horns...

Andrew

[hyperbolica]

Heavy slide + light bell = magic.

The TIS Kanstul basses that I have tried have very light slide mechanisms in comparison to, say, a Greenhoe. As a result, I think it loses much of the magic of great TIS horns...

This is entirely possible. I wouldn't call my Kanstul "magical". It works well in chamber music, but not for a big Symphonic setting or a loud band.

The TIS horns I've played are all so different its hard for me to make any general statements.

[mrdeacon]

Heavy slide + light bell = magic.

The TIS Kanstul basses that I have tried have very light slide mechanisms in comparison to, say, a Greenhoe. As a result, I think it loses much of the magic of great TIS horns...

This is entirely possible. I wouldn't call my Kanstul "magical". It works well in chamber music, but not for a big Symphonic setting or a loud band.

The TIS horns I've played are all so different its hard for me to make any general statements.

The best Kanstul 1662s I've played are the Heavy bell and Light slide ones (standard weighted slide). For whatever reason those ones seemed to always play better than the light bell light slide ones.

I think the reverse to the light bell heavy slide works pretty well!