Ugh... the search continues. Matching with a King 3B

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:58 am

Hey all. I play a 3B at work. It's a great horn and does it all, but I'm still trying to find something that really jives with it. I need to be able to play from low E to high C (yes, all those notes) and have it feel good throughout a whole day... Nothing crazy!

I had been using a Bach 5 up until the last few days. It's really good in some ways, but it was choking off my high register something fierce with the small throat, and the sound wasn't quite large enough on the 3rd part I'm usually on.

I've switched to a stock '90s Bach 6 1/2AL (huge surprise to me) which is a good match in a lot of ways, but also doesn't have the control in the low register like the 5 and is quite the beater example anyway. This is what I'll be using in the meantime.

I'm trying to stick with that size rim or larger, since I play bass the other half of the time and I play a 3 size on large tenor. The really small stuff doesn't really work for me.

Just for reference, I have 5 Yamaha 48s (nope), Wick 6BS (the worst choice of all), King 7MD (throat is way too small), another Bach 5 (a little better but not a lot), Bach 3 (best sound of all, but not the easiest to play), and some stuff that is just too big like a Schilke 51 and small shank 3G. I also have a Corp 6 1/2AL that is probably perfect but is in paperweight mode. It's missing half the plating!

Any suggestions? Obviously there's the DE route, but maybe there's something stock and cheaper out there that I haven't considered.

Post by **Doug Elliott** » Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:04 am

Obviously

Conn100HGuy · Post by **Conn100HGuy** » Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:33 am

Try a Wedge 5GS. You'll be secure throughout your range and you'll love its openness and full sound.

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:12 am

You're a bass player, right? Get a Doug Elliott XT106/C+ cup/D3 shank, and get on with living a great life.

That setup is able to play from F1 to F5 (minus B1) on a 3BF.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:19 am

I’d suggest a DE setup of LT100/C+/D3 shank for a .508 horn. Fat low range and solid up top. I’ve felt going bigger and you start to lose the characteristic sound of a small bore horn, and playing lead is just too much work

Post by **Matt K** » Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:49 am

I have an LB110/LB D/D3 combo that actually works really well. I've been sitting a lot of bass and 3rd bone lately so I have my bass chops on... so I've been using that piece for the 3rd parts for the last couple of weeks and I actually am starting to prefer it to my normal XT104N/XT C/C3 combination... It's definitely worth considering. I originally got it to practice my LB rim size with in my apartment because I dont' like the old silent brass but that's all that's available for bass... so I'd stick this on a small bore and get facetime in. But it turns out it's a substantially more useful tool than that. High Cs are no problem but if I had to live in treble clef for 2+ hours, I'd probably switch back to the XT104 setup.

ExZacLee · Post by **ExZacLee** » Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:20 am

A couple things (feel free to disregard)

You mentioned the small throat choking off your high range. This is an issue I had for years playing a 6.5/3B (and 6.5/2B) combination. Range stopped dead at Db above high C. I found 3 fixes for that particular problem - one was a Monette TS6 (HUGE throat compared to stock piece offerings - only issue was I had to play it the way it wanted to be played most of the time) another was a stork with a 3-sized rim and really open throat (chop eater, cup was too big, killed my endurance.) and the 3rd was a Doug, which I've been so happy with I'm not going back. The Doug has a comfy rim, a very well balanced cup and importantly, a good open throat.

Those small throats are problematic on small horns for certain players - I reckon you and I very likely have very similar chops (mayhap, mayhap not.) I've seen that in some students - with some, a larger throat really opens up the high register. With some, just the opposite. I tell them to call Doug, he fixes those things.

There aren't a whole lot of small bore mpcs with large throats - the Monette and Stork I mentioned above, I think the Ferguson pieces if I remember right. Not too many. I know people who have bored out the throats of mouthpieces - if you go that route, get a bunch that you like because it's easy to go too far, and usually takes a few goes to get it right. Maybe track down a bunch of Faxx pieces (I prefer them to the Bachs and they're cheaper).

I've been seeing you on here (well, TTF and now here) for awhile - you seem to be quite serious with your playing

. Doug's pieces are higher than stock offerings, but I think they're worth it: look at it as an investment - how much was school? How much are you going to spend on a bunch of mouthpieces that don't work? Was I a skeptic? Yes - not that I didn't trust Doug, but I just didn't think that "magic bullets" exist. It's my problem, equipment won't fix it, yada yada yada... I spent 20 years making 6.5 and 5 sized pieces work. I got with Doug and I don't even worry about that anymore. Just bought piece number 2 for my big horn, and will be buying copies of what I use when funds allow. I used to spend about $500 or so a year on pieces - got a whole box of 'em I'm selling. I haven't bought one other piece since I switched. I don't need 'em.

Do the Dougie.

JohnL · Post by **JohnL** » Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:35 am

You still coming down to Mouse Country on a regular basis? I've got a recent production Bach 5GS you're welcome to try.

Mv2541 · Post by **Mv2541** » Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:20 am

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:12 am You're a bass player, right? Get a Doug Elliott XT106/C+ cup/D3 shank, and get on with living a great life.

That setup is able to play from F1 to F5 (minus B1) on a 3BF.

Even though I play a 106 size on large tenor, the 105 works better on small horns for me in every way. Also if you are used to bass you might like the Narrow rims. Food for thought-

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:27 am

Rim aside, the C, C+, D cup paired with the proper shank is the way to go here.

Mv2541 · Post by **Mv2541** » Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:58 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:27 am Rim aside, the C, C+, D cup paired with the proper shank is the way to go here.

Can't argue this ^^^

mrdeacon · Post by **mrdeacon** » Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:40 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:12 am You're a bass player, right? Get a Doug Elliott XT106/C+ cup/D3 shank, and get on with living a great life.

That setup is able to play from F1 to F5 (minus B1) on a 3BF.

Depending on how big of a rim Burgerbob wants a 102 or 103 rim might be a better fit. 4g and 3g sized rim respectively.

Burgerbob the next time I see you, you need to try out my XT103, C+, D2 setup. I think the last time I saw you I had an XT106, D cup, D4 setup... I can't remember if you tried it or not.

My current setup will give you a good idea of how Doug's small stuff works. It's a good doubling setup. LT setup might work depending on what you want out of the piece but knowing you I think the XT C+ setup would fit the bill.

Seriously check out Doug's C+ cup. It's in between like a 7C and a no letter Bach. Not too small but not too big either. Follow whatever Doug recommends for the shank. The D2 shank is a perfect fit for the R1 I have.

Only other options I can think of... are custom ordering a Greg Black or Bob Reeves setup. Both good options but I think they would both be more expensive than Doug and you may or may not like them.

Or... have you tried a Bach 6 3/4s yet? A couple cats in LA swear by them.

PaulT · Post by **PaulT** » Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:08 am

I spent a lot of time with the Yamaha 48. A month ago, I tried the Yamaha 51C4. It was more open top and bottom. I expected the bottom to be more open, the more open and pure sounding top I didn't. But it was. For me.

I have a Bach 6.5 AL and a Bach 5G. They work fine and are industry standards, but every time I pull them out of the drawer for an A/B play, they go back in fairly quickly. To my ear, both are just a little blah.

- one point in Yamaha's favor, you are only out $40 for a mouthpiece that is made as well any.

PaulT · Post by **PaulT** » Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:34 am

(Given what I think I know of your seriousness and devotion to all things trombone, taking the Elliot plunge does seem like something you should consider and would enjoy doing. But, if you happen to see a 51C4 lying about, and they are pretty common, I imagine, it might be worth a whirl for fun.)

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:40 pm

He's already used DE setups on bass in his videos

davebb · Post by **davebb** » Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:14 pm

Disclaimer : - I'm at nowhere near the level of playing capability as Burgerbob, but thought this might be useful...

Most of my playing is large bore tenor using a Bach 3G.

I also have a King 3B+/F and I had much the same frustrations with a 6-1/2al in the lower register and with flexibility in general. I got a Bach 4 which I'm very happy with in terms of resolving the low range issues and still being comfortable across the range (which doesn't usefully go above high C for me yet.)

Also, it's easier to switch between the 3G and the 4 than it was to the 6-1/2al.

Dave

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:29 pm

Thanks for the suggestions, everyone.

I have used DE in the past... I may go down that route again, we'll see.

The modern Bach 4 is really strangely large (as is the 3), and they still have a pretty small throat. I have a friend at the same gig using one. My older 3 is smaller in every way except the rim and overall is a better mouthpiece.

bimmerman · Post by **bimmerman** » Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:10 pm

If the 5 rim works, and a 6.5al works also, and a DE setup isn't in the cards, try a 5GS? Pretty much is a 6.5 AL depth/throat on a 5 rim.

Or, Schilke 51B ?

ngrinder · Post by **ngrinder** » Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:34 pm

You could open up the throat of your 5. I used that mouthpiece for a while on my medium bore, but switched to a 6.5A, as the throat was larger and better at accepting larger amounts of air, but I still got enough compression and sizzle to sound idiomatic. The small throats are great for certain things, but finicky to those more accustomed to larger mouthpieces, in my opinion.

Posaunus · Post by **Posaunus** » Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:39 pm

Aidan,

It's presumptuous to me to suggest anything, since you play far better than I do, but I also play bass trombone as well as a King 3B. I think what may work for you is a piece with a fairly deep cup the size of a Bach 5/5GS (25.50mm diameter) but a larger throat than Bach's constricting 5.85mm bore. What works well for me is a Josef Klier "Exclusive" 7C (25.50mm cup, 6.40mm throat) - nothing at all like a Bach 7C, it's a nice, open, full-range mouthpiece, very well-made, as are all Klier mouthpieces.

I have never had success with a Schilke 51B - small-bore or large-bore. Cup is too shallow?

You might also look into
• Marcinkiewicz 9B (B. Stroup) - 26.06mm cup, 6.35mm throat
• Denis Wick 5BS - 25.73mm cup, 6.87mm throat

Good luck. Let us know if you find anything that works for you.

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:44 pm

ngrinder wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:34 pm You could open up the throat of your 5. I used that mouthpiece for a while on my medium bore, but switched to a 6.5A, as the throat was larger and better at accepting larger amounts of air, but I still got enough compression and sizzle to sound idiomatic. The small throats are great for certain things, but finicky to those more accustomed to larger mouthpieces, in my opinion.

This might be my first move. I have two, after all!

brtnats · Post by **brtnats** » Wed Mar 20, 2019 7:01 pm

I use a Yamaha Nils Landgren piece on my .508, playing ska and commercial from low E to that C (sometimes higher). It’s kind of like a Bach 6 3/4, but with a more Yamaha 48/wide feeling rim and a pretty large backbore with a standard throat. I dig it, as an off-the-shelf solution.

FWIW, I play a Yeo on my bass, and the switch isn’t very hard at all.

Posaunus · Post by **Posaunus** » Wed Mar 20, 2019 7:24 pm

brtnats wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2019 7:01 pm Yamaha Nils Landgren

Another good choice for 0.508" bore trombones - though it's got a little smaller cup (25.1mm diameter) than the Bach 5-size mouthpieces, or even than the 6½AL, so may feel a bit uncomfortable to Burgerbob. Throat 6.25mm diameter - well matched to the mouthpiece.

Post by **Matt K** » Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:28 pm

For what it's worth, I actually have a Nils Landgren threaded for Elliott rims... I think it takes an LT so you coudl give that a try if you wanted as well.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:49 am

Matt K wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:28 pm For what it's worth, I actually have a Nils Landgren threaded for Elliott rims... I think it takes an LT so you coudl give that a try if you wanted as well.

How does this work with the DE rim? I liked the Nils piece on a 3b and I think it’s very well designed, but I found the rim quite uncomfortable, it’s quite a sharp feeling on my face. DE rims are much more comfy for me

Post by **Matt K** » Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:34 am

Rusty wrote: ↑Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:49 am
Matt K wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:28 pm For what it's worth, I actually have a Nils Landgren threaded for Elliott rims... I think it takes an LT so you coudl give that a try if you wanted as well.
How does this work with the DE rim? I liked the Nils piece on a 3b and I think it’s very well designed, but I found the rim quite uncomfortable, it’s quite a sharp feeling on my face. DE rims are much more comfy for me

I used it as my main commercial piece for awhile. Worked well on the horn at the time but I can't remember which one that was! I believe at the time this was prior to Doug's C+ cup, which is ultimately what I replaced it with though it seems to play quite simlar to that. Something in between a C+/C2 and C3 if memory serves but I can dig it out and give it a toot if Iremember today!

Mv2541 · Post by **Mv2541** » Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:10 am

Matt K wrote: ↑Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:34 am
Rusty wrote: ↑Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:49 am How does this work with the DE rim? I liked the Nils piece on a 3b and I think it’s very well designed, but I found the rim quite uncomfortable, it’s quite a sharp feeling on my face. DE rims are much more comfy for me
I used it as my main commercial piece for awhile. Worked well on the horn at the time but I can't remember which one that was! I believe at the time this was prior to Doug's C+ cup, which is ultimately what I replaced it with though it seems to play quite simlar to that. Something in between a C+/C2 and C3 if memory serves but I can dig it out and give it a toot if Iremember today!

If you ever wanna sell that piece I would totally love to try it.

greenbean · Post by **greenbean** » Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:50 pm

I use a Stork T1S on my small- and medium bore horns. Awesome. Symphonic throat is larger than the standard.

I have also had luck with a Schilke 51B on a 3B. Really good! The 51 is too deep, it seems.

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:24 pm

Trying a 51B tomorrow. I have a friend using one and he sounds great.

The 6 1/2 definitely works... I'll be putting in some more time to see if it is really deficient in a major way.

Posaunus · Post by **Posaunus** » Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:07 pm

Yet another option - a Schilke 53 small-shank. 26.24mm cup I.D., 6.35mm throat. Bigger cup than a Bach 5GS, slightly smaller throat. If you're used to larger mouthpieces, this should work well for a 0.508" bore King 3B.

And John McKevitt (JohnnyMack) has one for sale now. If Burgerbob doesn't buy it, I will!

See:
https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=8630

Posaunus · Post by **Posaunus** » Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:12 pm

greenbean wrote: ↑Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:50 pm I use a Stork T1S on my small- and medium bore horns. Awesome. Symphonic throat is larger than the standard.

I have also had luck with a Schilke 51B on a 3B. Really good! The 51 is too deep, it seems.

Strange - I like the Stork T1 (a fine mouthpiece) but just can't get along with the Schilke 51B - small or large shank.

Cmillar · Post by **Cmillar** » Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:32 am

When I had a 3B, I loved using a Wick 7C classic with the option of putting on the Wick 'ToneBooster' depending on the style of music I was playing.

It worked beautifully for 1st trombone parts in a really great wind ensemble. Sounded like any 'legit' horn but had better stylistic flexibility.

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:30 am

Got some serious face time on the 6 1/2 yesterday. Worked out OK. Definitely does loud!

Fixed the shank on my beater Corp just to compare... It's garbage. Relegated to paperweight duty.

Posaunus · Post by **Posaunus** » Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:25 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:30 am Got some serious face time on the 6 1/2 yesterday. Worked out OK. Definitely does loud!

Just out of curiosity, which 6½ are you having success with - 6½A, 6½AM, or 6½AL?

(I'm presuming the 6½AL, which has the largest throat.)

They (6½AL) can indeed be played at a high volume. 40+ years ago, the large-shank versions were widely used in major symphony orchestras. For that "Teutonic" sound, I guess!

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:28 pm

AL, yes. So is my other Corp one that is awful. I have a Corp 6 1/2A in great shape... In large shank.

Post by **Doug Elliott** » Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:00 pm

Posaunus wrote: ↑Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:25 pm 40+ years ago, the large-shank versions were widely used in major symphony orchestras. For that "Teutonic" sound, I guess!

"Widely used"? Glen Dodson was the only one I'm aware of.

CalgaryTbone · Post by **CalgaryTbone** » Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:19 pm

Dee Stewart, Henry Charles Smith, Per Brevig (Conn and Wick equivalents), and Dave Langlitz come to mind as players who used a 6.5 AL mouthpiece back in the day. Jay Friedman was playing a Schilke 51B back then as well, which he recently described as Schilke's version of that mouthpiece. Not sure what the players that were on Conn 78's and Bach 36's were using before .547 bores became standard. Some players were also using 6.5 type mouthpieces for the alto rep., back before actual altos became more common.

Jim Scott

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Sat Mar 30, 2019 1:55 am

A few more days at work and some Caruso later, my beater 6 1/2AL is still going strong. Solid core to the sound, Loud!! and soft, flexible, all the articulations I want. The low register issue was me being too open (habit coming from the 5) in combination with the larger throat.

This 3B just keeps getting better...

Fairlane57 · Post by **Fairlane57** » Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:40 am

Go old school with the mouthpiece set up for the 3B. M-21 or M-31

Thanks, Bob

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Mon Apr 08, 2019 3:23 pm

Using an MV 6 1/2AL now. Wow. The magic is real.

Fruitysloth · Post by **Fruitysloth** » Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:31 am

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon Apr 08, 2019 3:23 pm Using an MV 6 1/2AL now. Wow. The magic is real.

I was about to recommend this. I played a 3B/F over the weekend with a MV 6 1/2AL, and if I didn't already have a yamaha 356 that I used for pit work, I would have done some sort of payment plan for it.

Trav1s · Post by **Trav1s** » Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:20 pm

Faxx 6.5AL maybe?

I am about the DE stuff but the Faxx is a great option for not much cash outlay.

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:57 pm

Trav1s wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:20 pm Faxx 6.5AL maybe?

I am about the DE stuff but the Faxx is a great option for not much cash outlay.

I sure hope a FAXX isn't as good as this MV!

Post by **BGuttman** » Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:21 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:57 pm
Trav1s wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:20 pm Faxx 6.5AL maybe?

I am about the DE stuff but the Faxx is a great option for not much cash outlay.
I sure hope a FAXX isn't as good as this MV!

The Faxx was supposedly copied from a Mount Vernon (although possibly not the one you are playing).

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:33 pm

Copies are copies.

norbie2018 · Post by **norbie2018** » Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:41 pm

And mouthpieces are mouthpieces.

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:04 pm

norbie2018 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:41 pm And mouthpieces are mouthpieces.

Yup... they make the biggest difference of anything you can play!

Post by **blast** » Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:43 am

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:33 pm Copies are copies.

Yup.... I am playing a copy of one of my Mt Vernons... nothing like the original, but in this case, it's worked out better !!

Chris

islander · Post by **islander** » Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:50 am

And I'm hoping to repeat that voodoo on a 2G, Chris. Getting on it now.

mrdeacon · Post by **mrdeacon** » Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:04 am

blast wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:43 am
Burgerbob wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:33 pm Copies are copies.
Yup.... I am playing a copy of one of my Mt Vernons... nothing like the original, but in this case, it's worked out better !!

Chris

Chris you still playing on the brass copy or did you swap full time over to the unpolished Zr copy?