Advantages of axial flow valves

[whitbey]

I had a Thayer many years ago. It was an oil and maintenance hog. I have Bach bass made in the 60's that needs care so seldom you do it because your bored. I use the new CR from Edwards now for my tenor. I think the bracing has more benefit then the valve.

Something that works is a big advantage.

[norbie2018]

I had a Thayer many years ago. It was an oil and maintenance hog. I have Bach bass made in the 60's that needs care so seldom you do it because your bored. I use the new CR from Edwards now for my tenor. I think the bracing has more benefit then the valve.

Something that works is a big advantage.

You don't like the valve?

[LeTromboniste]

Straight tenors are the reason most of Europe was using valve trombones from the mid to late 19th century. Just saying.

The idea that rejecting valves and sticking to straight tenor is the one true way and historically informed is ... not historically informed. A great portion of mid to late 19th century assumed 3 tenor-bass trombones (ie, with F attachment), and increasingly as the century went on the composer assumed that valve bones would be used.

So little was the slide used that the Mozart solo was assumed to be unplayable even as late as the 1910s and was often given to the bassoon or horn. Think about that for a second!

What you say about F attachment is probably true. We know they were used more and more and not just for bass. What you say about valve trombone is a bit of an overgeneralization. Italy did have valve trombones very early on and where the last to change back to slides, that we have known for a very long time. There is strong evidence now that valve trombones were predominant in Austria and Bohemia roughly between 1840 and 1880, more predominant than had previously been assumed. But that's a relatively short period in the big scheme of things. Yes, it means Bruckner and Dvorak wrote for valve trombones (and pieces premiered there premiered on valves but any piece written for Vienna was also performed on slides when played elsewhere...) There's also still much to be learned about that, and we only have a clear picture for Vienna and nearby centres. Valve trombones saw little use in France (probably mostly military), I'm not sure about Britain but I haven't seen claims of widespread use of valves there and certainly they were still making slide trombones without interruption through the 19th century into the 20th. Germany certainly not. Slides (and F attachments) were predominant in most of Germany - there may have been valve trombones in used but there is no evidence that it was the standard. There was a lot of use of valves in the Low Countries, but it is unclear to what extent that was widespread in concert music - it may very have been more a military band thing. Also let's face it we don't play much 19th century Dutch or Belgian music! Russia I really don't know.

Though I cannot prove it, my guess is that slides of the time period were not very good, necessitating the use if valved instruments.

Well there are instruments that are older than that and still have functional slides, and as Harrison mentionned there is lots of virtuosic music written for trombones long before the advent of valves, and certainly if slides were that bad you wouldn't find pieces in the 17th century that are more virtuosic than anything written until well into the 20th century.

My slide trumpet's slide was made entirely by hand, without drawing even on a mechanical draw bench. It was formed using techniques that would have been available 500 years ago. It has no stockings but the tolerance is similar to that Around the stockings on modern instruments, and I assure you it has little to envy to most modern slides. And I would go so far as to say unplated tubes probably stay better longer than modern slides. A brass slide probably can't quite be as smooth and fast as the best chrome plated slides, but if it is well built, well aligned and kept well maintained, it can be a solid 8.5, maybe 9 on 10. The beauty is if it tarnishes or has surface wear, it can be polished. A 10/10 modern slide will only stay 10/10 until the plating starts showing wear. Then it's only downhill from there, and replating is cost-prohibitive.

[norbie2018]

Well there are instruments that are older than that and still have functional slides, and as Harrison mentionned there is lots of virtuosic music written for trombones long before the advent of valves, and certainly if slides were that bad you wouldn't find pieces in the 17th century that are more virtuosic than anything written until well into the 20th century.

What are some examples of the virtuosic music you allude to? I know of pieces from the 19th century out of Germany, but not earlier pieces I'd consider virtuosic. It may sound silly, but I always assumed poor slide quality in horns from this era due to the way trombone pieces from this area/era emphasised the harmonic series so much (less slide movement).

[harrisonreed]

Listen to any albums by the group Caecilia-Concert, or the album "The Baroque Trombone", or Alain Trudel playing the Wagenseil/Haydn/Mozart/Albrechtsberger pieces.

[norbie2018]

Thanks!

[LeTromboniste]

What are some examples of the virtuosic music you allude to? I know of pieces from the 19th century out of Germany, but not earlier pieces I'd consider virtuosic. It may sound silly, but I always assumed poor slide quality in horns from this era due to the way trombone pieces from this area/era emphasised the harmonic series so much (less slide movement).

There is a great number of chamber music pieces in the seventeenth century with specified trombone parts, many of which are somewhat to very virtuosic. Add to that the Viennese baroque obbligato trombone solos in arie da capo which are already somewhat florid in the written music but where more ornaments would have been improvised in the da capo. And of course add to that music of both the 15th and 16th centuries when instrumentation was almost never specified (and quite a bit of 17th century literature where that is also the case) but where trombone could be used. There's a whole entirely different trombone world out there.

This for example is a page from the earliest (1620) known solo piece that specifies trombone. That is, bass trombone, given the range - and it would have to be a very large instrument in D (or even crooked down to C) to have the lowest written notes (low Bb, which doesn't exist on a G or F bass), so think that you're wielding a slide roughly 50% longer (and heavier) with a one-foot long handle. They just must have had at least decent slides to play all those notes.

Now sorry for the big digression. Of course with a Thayer valve (or any valve) this piece works on a modern tenor. There back on topic

[BGuttman]

Maximilien, your image doesn't show, but I was able to look at it by quoting your post and "harvesting" the URL. I wish I could figure out the tabulature used for that music. It sure looks busy.

Hah! I see you fixed it. Noting that it seems to be in tenor and alto clef, I don't see the low notes you mention. Or am I missing something?

[LeTromboniste]

Maximilien, your image doesn't show, but I was able to look at it by quoting your post and "harvesting" the URL. I wish I could figure out the tabulature used for that music. It sure looks busy.

Hah! I see you fixed it. Noting that it seems to be in tenor and alto clef, I don't see the low notes you mention. Or am I missing something?

The notation is the same as modern notation, it's just that the notes are not beamed together and each have an individual flag. The scan is not great so it's a bit hard to read but mostly it's 16th and 8th note runs. And those are F clefs, i.e. baritone and bass. Range is Bb1 to F4. When played on tenor it is traditionally played up a fifth (in alto and tenor clef) with rage F2 to C5.

[BGuttman]

OK. So that thing that looks like a figure 8 on a stick is actually an F clef. And it's doubly clefed (cleffed?) because the things at the end of the line are real alto and tenor clefs.

Not being an aficionado of this kind of music, I bow to your knowledge. It does look like it would be a challenge; especially on a slide with a handle.

[LeTromboniste]

OK. So that thing that looks like a figure 8 on a stick is actually an F clef. And it's doubly clefed (cleffed?) because the things at the end of the line are real alto and tenor clefs.

Not being an aficionado of this kind of music, I bow to your knowledge. It does look like it would be a challenge; especially on a slide with a handle.

No double clef here, it's just regular F clefs, alternating between bass and baritone to avoid ledger lines. That shape was common for F clefs in early prints. Some common F clef and C clef were designed using noteheads and stems.



Not sure what you mean by things at the end of the line, but maybe you mean the little squiggles at the end of each system - those are a super practical notation feature that should never have been abandoned : it tells you the pitch of the first note of the next system.

[brtnats]

He’s not talking about the custos; he’s talking about the part of the F clef that looks like really big natural sign.

[BGuttman]

He’s not talking about the custos; he’s talking about the part of the F clef that looks like really big natural sign.

That's what I was referring to. Glad you posted the pictures of all the clef signs so I could see my error.

[whitbey]

I had a Thayer many years ago. It was an oil and maintenance hog. I have Bach bass made in the 60's that needs care so seldom you do it because your bored. I use the new CR from Edwards now for my tenor. I think the bracing has more benefit then the valve.

Something that works is a big advantage.

You don't like the valve?

Overall no. Yes it blows nice when it worked. I have become a fan of less mass on the horn and the leaner valve.

[norbie2018]

You don't like the valve?

Overall no. Yes it blows nice when it worked. I have become a fan of less mass on the horn and the leaner valve.

Sorry, I meant the CR valve.

[norbie2018]

One last (related) question: for those of you who have tried them, is there an advantage to the Edwards axial flow with harmonic bridge?

[whitbey]

Overall no. Yes it blows nice when it worked. I have become a fan of less mass on the horn and the leaner valve.

Sorry, I meant the CR valve.

I love the CR valve! The bracing and the sound pillar help too.

[Mhoutris]

I have one! And I love a good 8H. Doesn't change that the use case is very limited.

Your point of view is very narrow. The only place you couldn't play a straight 547 is essentially 3rd parts, and even most of those would be playable. I've got a pro buddy that all he plays is a straight 547 Yamaha, in orchestra, quartet, quintet, church jobs, even big band. You're discounting generations of music and musicians.

Sorry to disagree - his point of view is realistic.

There are plenty of second parts which require a valve to play certain notes. Hell, I'm playing 2nd on Mahler 5 right now and there's a low D# right out the gate in the 3rd line of the first page.

With regards to convenience, you're kidding yourself if you think you can win an audition by playing all natural positions against someone with the agility provided by a valve. Why bring a knife to a gunfight?

[norbie2018]

Not everyone plays auditions/orchestral music; there are other genres of music for large bore trombones, with and without triggers.

[harrisonreed]

One last (related) question: for those of you who have tried them, is there an advantage to the Edwards axial flow with harmonic bridge?

I tried the Oft Model. Holy crap is that a sweet horn.

[ssking2b]

Advantage is all in the mind of they player. I just got a new XO bass bone, and I had a choice of axial or traditional rotors. I took traditional. Reason: less maintenance, shorter throw, and I don't care for the way axial valves feel up next to my neck, and the blow wasn't any beter, just a bit less focus - all of this for me. If you like axial, more power to you. Use what works best for you, and not what others think should work best.

[norbie2018]

One last (related) question: for those of you who have tried them, is there an advantage to the Edwards axial flow with harmonic bridge?

I tried the Oft Model. Holy crap is that a sweet horn.

Can you elaborate?

[harrisonreed]

Not in a useful way. I think that I should have gone the axial route. You can throw a ton of air to get it to do what you want and it still has the flexibility of the harmonic bridge. I didn't think it was all that special at first, and then I put a 1 copper pillar on top. Was easily feeling better than my edwards and that's saying a lot.

[ParLawGod]

I've never had problems with maintenance on the axial-flow. Easy to take apart and clean, actually. Keep it lubricated and you'll probably never experience any issues...though I always take it apart once a year to give it a "once over." Always Hetman oils through mine as well...perhaps that plays a factor.

[Wilco]

Some side question: did the shires basses axials always come with nickel plated cores? Was there a periode when they did not?

[BGuttman]

Yes there was. At various times they experimented with anodized aluminum, Teflon, and other treatments to try to control corrosion. I can't give you dates; I was talking with my friend who worked there to try to help him solve the problem. I have no idea how many of these experiments actually made it to sale.

[Wilco]

Yes there was. At various times they experimented with anodized aluminum, Teflon, and other treatments to try to control corrosion. I can't give you dates; I was talking with my friend who worked there to try to help him solve the problem. I have no idea how many of these experiments actually made it to sale.

Thanks for the insight! I have the opportunity to buy one which is 10 years old at a good price

[Wilco]

I bought the instrument! 11YM bell, dual bore slide, C tuning slide and B2.5 leadpipe. This is my first time on thayers, I like it! What I noticed right away is that the instrument was lighter than I thought. Nice clear sound!

[Wilco]

I bought the instrument! 11YM bell, dual bore slide, C tuning slide and B2.5 leadpipe. This is my first time on thayers, I like it! What I noticed right away is that the instrument was lighter than I thought. Nice clear sound!

Btw, this slide seems to have a fixed leadpipe. Is that possible? I cant see any threading...

[Burgerbob]

I bought the instrument! 11YM bell, dual bore slide, C tuning slide and B2.5 leadpipe. This is my first time on thayers, I like it! What I noticed right away is that the instrument was lighter than I thought. Nice clear sound!

Btw, this slide seems to have a fixed leadpipe. Is that possible? I cant see any threading...

Pictures?

[Wilco]

Btw, this slide seems to have a fixed leadpipe. Is that possible? I cant see any threading...

Pictures?

I checked with Shires and shared some pictures. It is possible to custom order a fixed leadpipe, so that is what most likely happend!

[brassmedic]

How can a horn with any kind of valve be more open; more of an airhog than a straight horn?

When the valve and neckpipe are a larger bore than the straight neckpipe. That was definitely the case with the Bach 42. They used to use the neckpipe provided by O.E. Thayer, which is a much larger diameter than a straight Bach 42 neckpipe. I haven't taken measurements on new Bachs or other brands, but I imagine that might be the case with a lot of trombones.