Jupiter XO 1236-O trombone

[GroovesMcFly]

My son is in high school and is a pretty good player. We're looking for a .547 inch large bore trombone with an F attachment. We found a used Jupiter XO 1236-O trombone for sale for $1600. Just curious what you all thought of this trombone? He played it yesterday and it sounded really nice. Was in great condition with a really nice case, and had been recently serviced.

Good trombone?

What do you think of the price?

[Mikebmiller]

A new one is $2,900 at WWBW, so if it is in good shape, that seems like a good price. Boston Brass plays Jupiter and I'm guessing they wouldn't play bad horns, even if someone paid them to.

[braymond21]

I played on an XO bass trombone and it was very nice. If it's in good condition then it would be great for a high school student and should last them a while.

[MalecHeermans]

That seems like a good deal if the horn is in good condition.

[MahlerMusic]

Your son will love it. The horn looks very sexy and that is a big deal for most kids. The wrap is different from most and will stand out in a sea of open wraps. And good job sticking with the yellow brass bell as the sound will be more consistent which is less frustrating at a younger age until he figures out the sound he wants. The only downside I see is that the rotary valve looks small but I have never blown that horn.

[mfellows821]

I will take the opposite side- Jupiter is a discount brand made in China and for the same money you can find a Nice Bach, Conn, Yamaha or Getzen. Boston Brass may be playing Jupiter but it is a good guess that they are getting paid to do so and have factory service backup to help if they have issues. When major orchestra players start playing jupiter, then it might be time to consider them. Quality of Chinese instruments has improved dramatically in the last few years but they have not reached the level of the American manufacturers on pro level horns. I would expect to pay much less than the $1600 for that used horn

[GroovesMcFly]

Is Taiwan better than China? This one is stamped TAIWAN.

IMG_5183.jpeg

[BGuttman]

Taiwan is the remnants of China before the Communist takeover. Jupiter was providing instruments to the US long before the Chinese Invasion (Jin Bao and friends). Jupiter, and particularly the XO line, are competent instruments. The XO is considered on a par with other imported premium instruments (like Courtois).

Non XO Jupiters were on a par with makers like Weril and the various makers in Neumarkirchen.

[SwissTbone]

The XO is considered on a par with other imported premium instruments (like Courtois).

Considered by whom? I consider Courtois as a premium brand like maybe edwards and Getzen. Better than Bach and certainly on par with the best Yamahas.

Whereas I consider Jupiter of lower quality. They try to get into the premium market with the XO line, but it didn't happen yet.

I would not buy a Jupiter for one simple reason: no resale value.

[mfellows821]

I would take a Courtois every day over a Jupiter and there are major symphony players playing Courtois in Europe.
I have played pretty much every brand and while Jupiter (even XO) gets a nod over many of the least expensive Chinese horns, I did not feel it played on an even field with the major american brands. Competent is for intermediate horns. Pro horns should be excellent. For $1600 you can get an excellent used Pro level horn

[GroovesMcFly]

Thanks for all the advice! We're going to keep looking at options before we buy the XO.

So it sounds like the brands to look for are King, Conn, Getzen, and Yamaha? Bach too?

[SwissTbone]

More or less yes.

More precise:
King 4bf
Conn 88H
Getzen... dont know
Yamaha if it begins with a 6 or an 8 its probably good
Bach 42b

[DougHulme]

I dont own a Jupiter, I have no connection to Jupiter I have however at several shows, over several years, played several of their instruments for long periods of time. Their construction and craftmanship is second to none. They blow beautifully. Taiwan is a world removed from China, they entered the rest of the world 50 years before China did. They have been trading horns in the States at least since 1995 to my knowledge. It is true their very first offerings (whenever that was) to the market were of a medium standard but they learned fast and their XO range is second to no one. Play an instrument and choose it but not by its make, but how it plays. I feel Jupiter are suffering because of the Taiwanese/Chinese/Early reputation; they deserve to be and are a comparable instrument to all the makes mentioned previously as alternatives. If they had Conn or King or Bach stamped on them they would get a better reception. They play really well and are built well. They have a good dealership and great distribution in the States, I think Boston Brass have standard instruments. Jon Fedchok isnt exactly a slouch in the jass world either, there are quality players playing these instruments. I would recommend them highly.

[PaulT]

There are less expensive Yamaha trombones but there are no cheap Yamaha trombones. Pick a series... 3, 4, 5, 6, or 8... the price will vary, the quality of workmanship won't. The 354 is a dandy horn, one no pro would ever disdain. The 400 series lacks some nickle trim, but the horn is a solid horn (the 446 F model has a string trigger rather than mechanical, but I don't know if that is much of an issue. Mechanical is generally preferred, but string certainly works and works well.)

[ssking2b]

XO horns are some of the finest I have ever played. And who am I and why would my opinion be valuable? Go check out my website at www.pjonestrombone.com and YOU decide if I might have a clue!

[ssking2b]

[quote=mfellows821 post_id=85213 time=1557943595 user_id=3628]
I will take the opposite side- Jupiter is a discount brand made in China and for the same money you can find a Nice Bach, Conn, Yamaha or Getzen. "

The XO line is comparable to ANY Bach, Conn, or Getzen. I'd think if you did your research and tested these horns you would have a different opinion. Try the XO models. They are the pro versions in Jupiter's lines. And BTW they are made in Taiwan not China. In Taiwan, craftsmanship is highly valued, unlike China, who mostly grinds out poor knock offs (there are exceptions).

If you think about it, there was a time not too long ago when. Greenhoe, Shires (now owned by a Chinese company) and Rath were considered 2nd rate upstarts, too.

[Specialk3700]

I would take a Courtois every day over a Jupiter and there are major symphony players playing Courtois in Europe.
I have played pretty much every brand and while Jupiter (even XO) gets a nod over many of the least expensive Chinese horns, I did not feel it played on an even field with the major american brands. Competent is for intermediate horns. Pro horns should be excellent. For $1600 you can get an excellent used Pro level horn

When was the last time you've played a XO horn? I played a few at the midwest clinic and wow, I was very impressed.

[Matt K]

Shires started out by selling custom bell sections for existing slides and had a wait list of over a year, so I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that they were ever considered a 2nd rate startup. Greenhoe had a similar initial business model modifying horns and likewise I don't think it's quite accurate to claim anyone thought of them as 2nd rate ever. I can't speak to Rath as much because they didn't penetrate the US market in quite the same way so it wasn't as much that Rath was considered bad but that they hadn't been heard of by many players.

It would be much more reasonable to compare them to early Yamaha where they sold cheap horns and eventually decided to focus on quality. And while they do seem to play well, they have some interesting design choices and their longevity is not necessarily on par with Yamaha. I've known several people with Jupiters who had their valve sections totally corrode within the last few years. Part of that may well have been lack of maintenance on their part but I've never heard about that happening to a 2-3 year old Yamaha. The design choices I'm referring to are the sharing of parts between basses and tenors as Bach did... except it's the valves. In particular, most (all?) of their basses and tenors, or at least the thayers, are .571". Or at least that was the case as of a few years ago, per Benn Hanson's observation with working with them. That isn't bad, indeed, that works really well for some people on both sides but it is different enough that it would be easy enough for me to understand why one might not buy one blind or why it might not be one's particular cup of tea.

[mfellows821]

I did not mean to offend anyone who chooses to play a Jupiter trombone. If a horn works for you and you like it, that is the horn you should play and thankfully we have lots of tromobnes to choose from. At this time, Jupiter is not a common choice by top players although they are obviously making an effort to get to that point. I last played an XO about two years ago and it was did not grab my attention. At this time, Jupiter has not convinced very many trombone players that it is the best choice. In my circle in the Northwest, I cannot think of one player that has chosen Jupiter as a main horn. We have Bachs, Conns, Yamahas, Kings, Getzens, Holtons, Greenhoes, Raths, Edwards, and Shires.

[Tooloud]

XO vs Jupiter is like Lexus vs Toyota, VW vs Bentley and so on. You can't judge one from the other.

This narrow-minded view that american made instruments are the only ones acceptable is very much from yesteryear. These days are gone - to judge from american made instruments (most of them Bach) I tried over the years. Poor craftsmanship in too many cases, very inconsistent at best. I personally know two B 454 sitting here in a showroom for years for good reasons...

But as you say: In some "circles" the opinion is based on a narrow, self defined horizon about what you "have to play" if you want to be taken seriously.
It's like with french horns in Europe, mostly Germany: You don't get an invitation to an audition if you just don't play an Alexander Mod. 103. No reasons. Just fact.

Modern industrial manufacturing can produce a high quality level wherever the factory may be built. Yamahas come from China today and no one complains Yamaha's quality. It's just a matter of quality control. And that is a matter of cost. So you get what you pay for - wherever the item in question may come from.

Back to topic: XO is not cheap, roughly double of what a 'Jupiter' costs. Taiwan is not a third-world country. Those people know what they are doing. I don't know the XO 1236, but to shy away because of the brand is ... well, guess..

[ExZacLee]

XO horns are high quality. When they first came out, the issue was their weight, not the quality of build. They had a lovely core to the sound, and if you like heavier horns, the first gen models were amazing. I like lighter horns.

The second gen XOs addressed the weight issue but still have a great sound. I've played a few XOs and I perceived a nice even sound through the registers, a good balance and much lighter than the first generation XOs. The small bores are outstanding. Large bores as well.

There were no Jupiter horns I'd put in the top tier. The XO horns are an altogether different thing - they are outstanding horns. They compare favorably (in most cases better) to anything Bach, Conn or King produce. I would compare them to Yamaha's finest offerings.

[timbone]

Not much to say here- folks are gonna defend their purchases. To me one thing is for sure- brass in the pacific rim is not the same as American brass and not even close to European brass. We're talking raw materials here.

[Matt K]

Not much to say here- folks are gonna defend their purchases. To me one thing is for sure- brass in the pacific rim is not the same as American brass and not even close to European brass. We're talking raw materials here.

[Citation Needed]

[BrassedOn]

High school student
Budget under $2k is a very good range.
The price you say sounds good for that model and condition. I’d recheck the slide by wiping ALL oil or lube off it and seeing the performance of the dry slide. Yamaha slide goo for example can hide a so so slide for a while. And check by touch any dings on the outside. Check for straight alignment of the slide by feel and by looking around the point where the inner slide is visible within outer slide as you move it up and down.

Anyone suggesting pro level orchestral horns like Shires should include a link to someone selling such horn for $1600.

After finding it has a good sound and condition, be very conscious of how the horn fits the body. Ergonomics weight etc. play seated and standing.

If possible take a pro player or trombone instructor to double check it out.

Make sure price include case or gig bag.

An XO could very well be a horn for someone auditioning and entering college as a music student. And if that is the case later on for your kid, the college environment would be a better context for learning about other pro level horns.

Search you tube for the XO trombone quartet. Fun.

Around Central Texas. Used.
Bach 42 going $900 to $1500 used. But crapshoot for good condition good player.
Conn 88 does not come up for sale very often.
Edwards trigger horn maybe $2400 but usually higher
Shores Q series $2400.

[Posaunus]

To me one thing is for sure- brass in the pacific rim is not the same as American brass and not even close to European brass. We're talking raw materials here.

So Yamaha brass is inherently inferior because they source it within the "Pacific Rim?"

Is all brass used in "America" sourced only from the United States? Where is the raw material supply source for European brass instruments?

Is the issue primarily quality of "raw materials" or is it processing / alloying / metalworking?

Will my apparently fine (or so I thought) Japanese-made Yamaha trombone be disintegrating soon?

[BGuttman]

There are quite a few different brass alloys. Some are more appropriate to musical instrument manufacture and others are not. You would generally not use the same brass for a lighting fixture that you would for a brass instrument (although I am convinced that some of the lower quality makers do). I am not skilled enough to figure out what alloy is best to make a trombone; I have to depend on the people with experience.

I should also point out that brass is generally made in large batches at foundries, and no maker of only musical instruments buys enough to get a "custom" alloy; they have to use what is normal mill runs.

[Tooloud]

I KNOW from a chinese maker of french horn, that they import the brass from Germany. Their machines are also imported from Germany - Finke Horns sold it to China. Ok, they'r not really cheap - only in relation to those high-end instruments made by experienced bearded craftsmen in workshop unchanged since the times of their forefathers...

I READ on a chinese manufactureres site, that they import the brass either form Taiwan or from Japan.

So even the Chinese do not seem to trust the 'homegrown' brass available and - say that - they do not use it for higher priced musical instruments.

I cannot confirm this, since I am neither engineer nor maker of musical instruments, just a user.

[PaulT]

Will my apparently fine (or so I thought) Japanese-made Yamaha trombone be disintegrating soon?

Sadly, yes. You can trust Timbone on this one. He has inside sources.

If we have learned anything over the last forty years or so it is that Japan uses crappy materials.

Toyotas? They use recycled pop bottles for crankshaft bearings. That's why their engines don't hold up.

Honda? Don't even ask what materials they use. You ever see anyone that has to depend on their equipment using anything made by Honda? (you are better off using a goat than one of their lawn mowers).

Of course Yamaha uses sub-standard brass for their trumpets and trombones. For the same reason they use recycled cardboard for their pianos, tin cans for their racing bikes and styrofoam for their guitars and outboard motors. Clearly Yamaha is a company that doesn't care what it makes its stuff out of and that's why no one that knows anything trusts anything they build. How they have managed to pull the wool over people's eyes and stayed in business as a successful independent company for over 75 years (rather than as a commodity traded back and forth by various groups of in and out for the buck investors) I'll never know.

[Matt K]

Will my apparently fine (or so I thought) Japanese-made Yamaha trombone be disintegrating soon?

Sadly, yes. You can trust Timbone on this one. He has inside sources.

If we have learned anything over the last forty years or so it is that Japan uses crappy materials.

Toyotas? They use recycled pop bottles for crankshaft bearings. That's why their engines don't hold up.

Honda? Don't even ask what materials they use. You ever see anyone that has to depend on their equipment using anything made by Honda? (you are better off using a goat than one of their lawn mowers).

Of course Yamaha uses sub-standard brass for their trumpets and trombones. For the same reason they use recycled cardboard for their pianos, tin cans for their racing bikes and styrofoam for their guitars and outboard motors. Clearly Yamaha is a company that doesn't care what it makes its stuff out of and that's why no one that knows anything trusts anything they build. How they have managed to pull the wool over people's eyes and stayed in business as a successful independent company for over 75 years (rather than as a commodity traded back and forth by various groups of in and out for the buck investors) I'll never know.

From US News:

Toyota, with an average predicted reliability score of four out of five for its model lineup easily exceeds Honda’s average score of 3.25 out of five. Only one Toyota, the Sienna, earns a reliability score that is below average, with J.D. Power assigning it a rating of 2.5. Thirteen Toyotas manage to earn reliability scores of four or higher, which is well above average. Of the latest Hondas rated so far, the Accord did best, with a reliability score of four out of five. Every other Honda earned a rating of three or 3.5 out of five.

From Wards Auto (2015):

Toyota and Honda buyers hold on to their vehicles the longest.

So says a study that determined the percentage of original owners who kept their new-vehicle purchases 10 years.

The top five vehicles and percentage of original owners maintaining a long-term relationship with them:

The Honda CR-V CUV (28.6%), Toyota Prius hybrid (28.5%), Toyota RAV4 CUV (28.2%), Toyota Highlander SUV (26.5%) and Honda Odyssey minivan (25.6%).

Of the top 15, Hondas and Toyotas held every spot except for No.11. The Subaru Forester CUV occupied that position with 22.9% of buyers in the 10-year ownership club.

[Specialk3700]

Will my apparently fine (or so I thought) Japanese-made Yamaha trombone be disintegrating soon?

Sadly, yes. You can trust Timbone on this one. He has inside sources.

If we have learned anything over the last forty years or so it is that Japan uses crappy materials.

Toyotas? They use recycled pop bottles for crankshaft bearings. That's why their engines don't hold up.

Honda? Don't even ask what materials they use. You ever see anyone that has to depend on their equipment using anything made by Honda? (you are better off using a goat than one of their lawn mowers).

Of course Yamaha uses sub-standard brass for their trumpets and trombones. For the same reason they use recycled cardboard for their pianos, tin cans for their racing bikes and styrofoam for their guitars and outboard motors. Clearly Yamaha is a company that doesn't care what it makes its stuff out of and that's why no one that knows anything trusts anything they build. How they have managed to pull the wool over people's eyes and stayed in business as a successful independent company for over 75 years (rather than as a commodity traded back and forth by various groups of in and out for the buck investors) I'll never know.

What Toyotas, Hondas, and yamahas have you used?

[ExZacLee]

Not much to say here- folks are gonna defend their purchases. To me one thing is for sure- brass in the pacific rim is not the same as American brass and not even close to European brass. We're talking raw materials here.

Tim, I haven't purchased anything by XO. I have, however, played their instruments and they're the real deal. I don't have a dog in this fight... I'm not trying to inflate the value of something I'm trying to sell - all the horns I own (with the exception of my student model Yamaha which is still in the shape I bought it in over 30 years ago) are American made. I understand people's reluctance to trust a Chinese built horn - but make no mistake. This is not a Selman. The XO is as good (or better) as any mass-prod. horn put out by Conn, Bach or King on the market - and given my druthers, I'd rather have an XO small bore than any of the small bores being made by Conn, Bach or King right now. It's simply that well made, and the materials they use are excellent. I worked in a music store for a few years and spent a fair amount of time in the shop helping with repairs. I've seen the crappy build and materials being used by First Act, Selman and other Chinese made instruments that weren't anywhere near up to snuff. I've also seen crappy build quality using good materials from the major American manufacturers, but that's another subject for another post.

The XO does not suffer from any of those issues - your statement is overly general and misinformed. China is not somehow incapable of good manufacturing - they don't lack the technology, materials or access to workers. A lot of American companies set up shop in china so they can get away with paying workers less and buy the cheapest materials possible to do so... of course when you cut every corner you end up with crap. XO doesn't do this. Some companies manufacture in china because they have the skilled workforce and infrastructure and access to quality materials necessary to produce certain items - and if you haven't noticed, we've let our manufacturing infrastructure slip in all but the most high end high margin businesses (arms production for example.)

I'm a professional musician and an educator - I wouldn't come on here and undermine a reputation I've spent the better part of 2 decades developing by voicing my approval for a product that sucks. If their product was inferior I'd be the first to call them on it. In the XOs I've played, the raw materials are beyond reproach and the build quality is excellent. Play one.

... and I'm pretty sure PaulT was being Facetious... Honda and Toyota produce the most reliable vehicles on the road, and Yamaha's horns and craftsmanship are outstanding.

[PaulT]

Thanks, ExZacLee. My intent was satire (relying on over-the-top exaggeration). Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. And I suppose I should have used one of those emoji things, but there are so many of them, I can never decide, so I just skip the little farts.

[PaulT]

(and I am the very happy owner of four Yamaha trombones, proudly put over 230K on a Corolla before giving it to one of my kids, have a Yamaha bike, learned guitar on a Yamaha, have two Honda lawnmowers (and no goats), a Honda engine on my snow blower, a Yamaha keyboard, and drove a Yamaha skid steer for Menards one summer during college. And I own a Chevy truck and a Martin D-18 that lives for bluegrass.)

[Matt K]

Hah, well, kudos, it was a very good parody given that it is identical to people who hold that opinion. That's one of the reasons we have certain clauses in the TOS; people on the old TTF posted very similar things and then doubled or tripled down on it, occasionally resulting in rather blatant xenophobic remarks which we have hitherto been able to keep out of TBC.

[JLivi]

A new one is $2,900 at WWBW, so if it is in good shape, that seems like a good price. Boston Brass plays Jupiter and I'm guessing they wouldn't play bad horns, even if someone paid them to.

As confirmed by Boston Brass' tuba player, they are no longer with Jupiter. They all play Yamaha's. I just wanted to clear that up.