Best mid-size?

jtbandmusic · Post by **jtbandmusic** » Fri May 31, 2019 3:50 pm

The slide of my YSL 646 is losing plating. I mention this and my wife says "you need a new horn." I like the size of the 646... big enough for concert band, small enough for jazz stuff in quintet. So now I wonder what's the best horn this size? Just three conditions....
1 With a trigger
2 Currently in production
3 Not an exotic boutique custom brand

Thanks
John Thompson

Post by **BGuttman** » Fri May 31, 2019 4:03 pm

Bach 36B
Yamaha 640 (it's the latest version of your 646)

There is a Wessex Tubas horn with those specs but I don't know the number.

Post by **Matt K** » Fri May 31, 2019 4:06 pm

646 is one of my favorite horns of all time. If you really want new, you can consider the newer Yamah, the YSL640 like Bruce mentioned

hyperbolica · Post by **hyperbolica** » Fri May 31, 2019 5:25 pm

My fav 525 is the M&W, after that, a 79h. The Wessex does not have a valve. If you have to go with current production, that leaves the 36b, which can be good. The Yams have a big bell, 8" bell fits that bore size better in my opinion. 88h w/525 is a good option if you like the bigger bell.

PaulT · Post by **PaulT** » Fri May 31, 2019 7:20 pm

The Yamaha 640 has a mechanical valve linkage (as opposed to the 646's string linkage). Not necessarily better, but generally preferred. The 640 is a superb horn.

Trav1s · Post by **Trav1s** » Fri May 31, 2019 7:31 pm

I will throw the Rath R3F into the mix. The M&W .525" was nice but found the Rath as it was set up to be more my thing.

I also recently played a lightly used 2017 Bach 36BO that really impressed me.

I personally play a Conn 79H which replaced a Bach 36B.

Post by **mrpillow** » Fri May 31, 2019 8:04 pm

For a bargain, I've found the King 608F to be a wonderful .525. They pop up pretty cheap on the used market quite regularly.

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Fri May 31, 2019 9:48 pm

Another vote for 36B or 36BO.

SwissTbone · Post by **SwissTbone** » Fri May 31, 2019 11:51 pm

The best will probably be a custom horn like M&W or Rath.
But if you don't want to go that route, I think the .525 Yamahas are great.

Why does it have to be a current production horn? You could easily find another 646.

PaulT · Post by **PaulT** » Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:23 am

Hey, the wife gave the blessing for getting a new horn. That is a rare and special event! Don't blow it. Get a nice new horn.

Oh, and also, drop a few hints about the lawnmower getting up in age and speak wistfully of the new golf clubs one of your buddies just got. Maybe this lucky moment has legs!

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:11 am

A king 3BF can play bigger than the 36B with the right mouthpiece. Just food for thought. They work for jazz and concert band.

jtbandmusic · Post by **jtbandmusic** » Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:57 am

I had a 3BF for a year or so, and hated it. Everything was SPLAT city. Play with no dynamics, no accents, everything was HOLD BACK, DON'T BLAT! No fun at all. Tried larger mouthpieces to try to tame it, up to a 5GS, then a Schilke 51. Went back to an 88H, then the YSL 646. Some people just are not meant to play smaller horns.

John Thompson

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:20 am

You are definitely right. I used to think the same thing. My solution was a mouthpiece with a very shallow cup, large throat and venturi, and a wide cup diameter. I'm thinking more and more that shallow cups (relative to the horn size) with very open throats are the way to go on anything that isn't a bass trombone.

For reference, you are talking about a 5GS, but I suspect that the cup is too deep and the diameter too small for you on a small horn. AKA, blat city.

greenbean · Post by **greenbean** » Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:37 pm

I like the 3B+/F. I think you can still special order them from King.

Jimkinkella · Post by **Jimkinkella** » Sat Jun 01, 2019 1:10 pm

A 3b+/F is super cool, as is a good-playing 36b or bo. It's really tough to find a good 79h, but worth a look as they do sound great. The Rath R3 series is awesome if a bit expensive. An 88h with a .525 slide is really still an orchestral horn, and I've always found the mid-size Shires to play kind of funky, not quote big, not quite medium, just kind of odd.
YMMV

walldaja · Post by **walldaja** » Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:26 pm

How different is the Yamaha 446G from the 640 save the gold brass bell?

Bach5G · Post by **Bach5G** » Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:45 pm

With the Shires .525 you can use small and large- shank leadpipes and mouthpieces.

Post by **BGuttman** » Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:33 pm

You can get a 640G (gold brass). There are a couple of mechanical differences between the 646 and 640 (and 684). One of the big differences is the change from string linkage to mechanical linkage of the valve.

Bach5G, the OP doesn't want a boutique horn. The ground rule was general production (and current).

Bach5G · Post by **Bach5G** » Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:35 pm

Sorry.

Is Shires an exotic boutique though? It’s a subsidiary of Eastman winds, one of more significant music instrument companies in the world. Eastman makes two or three lines of Shires trombones, don’t they?

It isn’t 2005 anymore.

PaulT · Post by **PaulT** » Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:51 pm

walldaja wrote: ↑Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:26 pm How different is the Yamaha 446G from the 640 save the gold brass bell?

There isn't a lot of difference between them. Not a lot of difference in price either, a couple hundred bucks or so.

- The 640 has nicer trim, primarily chrome plating on the wear points and slide crook.

- The 640 has a mechanical valve linkage. The 446 valve has a string pull. String pulls work just fine, but a mechanical linkage (metal rod instead of string) is generally preferred (or so I assume as nearly all top horns have a mechanical linkage).

- The 640 has a yellow brass bell and gold brass lead pipe. The 446 has a gold brass bell and a yellow brass lead pipe.

- The 640 has a nicer case. Not better, just a nicer look, feel and finish to the material.

Both horns are made well and true and play beautifully. If my reading of ebay is rigth, more players than not judge the 640's mechanical valve linkage and nicer trim and case to be worth the extra couple hundred bucks. But, if the right deal presents itself, the 446 is a fine horn.

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:03 pm

Bach5G wrote: ↑Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:35 pm Sorry.

Is Shires an exotic boutique though? It’s a subsidiary of Eastman winds, one of more significant music instrument companies in the world. Eastman makes two or three lines of Shires trombones, don’t they?

It isn’t 2005 anymore.

Yes. Shires custom instruments are still exactly that, all made in the US by Shires craftsmen.

Post by **BGuttman** » Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:06 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:03 pm
Bach5G wrote: ↑Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:35 pm Sorry.

Is Shires an exotic boutique though? It’s a subsidiary of Eastman winds, one of more significant music instrument companies in the world. Eastman makes two or three lines of Shires trombones, don’t they?

It isn’t 2005 anymore.
Yes. Shires custom instruments are still exactly that, all made in the US by Shires craftsmen.

Shires is a custom line owned by Eastman.
Edwards is a custom line owned by Getzen.

Bach5G · Post by **Bach5G** » Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:37 pm

From Shires’ website:

“Using the resources of S.E. Shires' parent company, the Eastman Music Company, we have been able to develop a more affordable class of professional brass instrument: the Q Series. These instruments represent the philosophy of Eastman Music Company, to produce the finest musical instruments at every price point. Q Series are entry level professional instruments that have many of the same features as their custom counterparts. When you purchase a Q Series instrument you join the S. E. Shires family, a family which includes some of the finest professional musicians in the world”

It’s not 2005 anymore. I suspect Edwards and Getzen share the same ownership and management (they’re mostly members of the Getzen family aren’t they?) The Eastman/Shires ownership/management?

Especially now that Steve is making French horns?

From NG/BA:

“The Brass Ark is excited to be the West Coast dealer for the exciting new French Horns made by Stephen Shires in Vermont, The Stephens Horn. This is number 6 and is a "Geyer" style instrument. These horns are made entirely by hand by Steve in his small shop. Steve is of course famous for his trumpets and trombones, but this new venture is exciting as he expands his repertoire and legacy into high performance French Horns.“ Isn’t it a couple of hundred mile from Vermont to Shires’ current shop?

My point is simple: SEShires is a mainstream, albeit high end, brand, not “exotic, boutique”, whatever that means.

And, I have a Shires, which I like very much.

Post by **Matt K** » Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:50 pm

Yes there's another thread that talked about them just a few days ago. The Q series are not 100% analagous to Getzen in the sense that the people who make the parts for Getzen and Edwards horns are located in the same location as they are assembled. With the Q series, the parts for the horns are made by the Shires workers and then assembled by the Eastman workers before being shipped back.

As far as being exotic, I think what the OP means is a mid 5 figure price point is undesirable. The Q series doesn't have a 525 option and if you were to make one, you'd be around the same price as a custom horn. Incidentally, the Getzen 1036F would be worth investigating. It's a similar price point to the Yamaha and ticks most of the boxes though it is an 8" bell.

Bach5G · Post by **Bach5G** » Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:09 pm

Then there’s this:

Eastman Winds
Trombone .525'' Bore, Open-wrap F Attachment
Departments > Band & Orchestral > Trombones > Trombones - Int./pro > Eastman Winds > Trombone .525'' Bore, Open-wrap F Attachment

https://www.long-mcquade.com/100046/Ban ... chment.htm

And from Eastman:

“Incorporating Shires' Design
Highly skilled artisans handcraft each instrument to create the professional feel and sound.”

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:52 pm

5 figure price point? Dang, Thein, maybe shaegerl.

EOlson9 · Post by **EOlson9** » Sat Jun 01, 2019 11:14 pm

greenbean wrote: ↑Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:37 pm I like the 3B+/F. I think you can still special order them from King.

You can't get them special ordered. I tried to do that a few months back. Thats why i bought yours Tom!

Geordie · Post by **Geordie** » Sat Jun 01, 2019 11:37 pm

Another vote for 3B+ with trigger. I bought mine from Greenbean and love it. Very flexible horn.

MrHCinDE · Post by **MrHCinDE** » Sun Jun 02, 2019 1:03 am

How about the Courtois AC260? It’s a .525” instrument with F attachment. I know these aren’t marketed as top of the range but the AC280 I tried (same range as AC260, .547” instead of .525”) played very well indeed. They can be had for around 1200€ brand new in Europe.

greenbean · Post by **greenbean** » Sun Jun 02, 2019 1:32 am

walldaja wrote: ↑Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:26 pm How different is the Yamaha 446G from the 640 save the gold brass bell?

The 446 is a very nice horn that can be picked up cheap. Costs have been kept down by using more brass in place of nickel silver, eliminating the second F-att tuning slide, string linkage, and the cheaper case. I think the only other differences are the bell and leadpipe. The 640 plays better, I think. But both very good horns.

Post by **Matt K** » Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:06 am

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:52 pm 5 figure price point? Dang, Thein, maybe shaegerl.

Haha that's what's I get for posting in the evening. Meant 4.

Yeah there are Eastman horns that may fit the bill but they - as far as I can tell - are not analogous to Getzen horns. For what that is worth!

afugate · Post by **afugate** » Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:02 am

Call me cheap, but why not just replace the inners? (I love my 645!

)

--Andy in OKC.

greenbean · Post by **greenbean** » Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:34 pm

afugate wrote: ↑Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:02 am Call me cheap, but why not just replace the inners? (I love my 645! )

--Andy in OKC.

This is why, Andy!...

jtbandmusic wrote: ↑Fri May 31, 2019 3:50 pm ... I mention this and my wife says "you need a new horn."
...

afugate · Post by **afugate** » Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:50 pm

greenbean wrote: ↑Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:34 pm
afugate wrote: ↑Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:02 am Call me cheap, but why not just replace the inners? (I love my 645! )

--Andy in OKC.
This is why, Andy!...

jtbandmusic wrote: ↑Fri May 31, 2019 3:50 pm ... I mention this and my wife says "you need a new horn."
...

--Andy in OKC

greenbean · Post by **greenbean** » Sun Jun 02, 2019 3:09 pm

Ha-ha-ha!

Finetales · Post by **Finetales** » Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:08 pm

Bach5G wrote: ↑Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:37 pm My point is simple: SEShires is a mainstream, albeit high end, brand, not “exotic, boutique”, whatever that means.

Eastman by Shires and Shires Q-series instruments are not boutique, but Shires Custom horns are the same level as they were in 2005, and are the same level of boutique (and as expensive) as Rath, M&W, etc. "Boutique" as applied to trombones, especially in the context we are discussing here, means custom built modular (or just extremely expensive handbuilt horns, like Schagerl and Thein), which is what the horns custom made by Steve Shires are.

Suggesting an Eastman or Shires Q-series .525 (if they made one) would be appropriate for the OP's request of production and not boutique. Suggesting a Shires custom .525, as great as they play, is not.

Bach5G · Post by **Bach5G** » Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:40 pm

Sure. Let's go with that.

Davidus1 · Post by **Davidus1** » Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:45 pm

Another vote for the Yamaha YSL640. I own a 630 (Straight horn) and absolutely love it!

jtbandmusic · Post by **jtbandmusic** » Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:46 pm

OP here... About boutique horns: as a mediocre player, I would feel like a fool playing a $5000 trombone.
(Who does he think he's fooling?)

Anyone played a Conn 52H?
Is it good? Is it 'mid size'? Is it really a Benge?

John Thompson

PaulT · Post by **PaulT** » Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:37 pm

It's probably a fine horn. It is a "dual bore" horn with one inner slide tube measuring .525 and the other measuring .547. There are many things said one way or another about dual bores (plays small sounds big, plays big sounds small), but at the end of the day, it is what it is, a horn with a slide slightly bigger than a .525 and slightly smaller than a .547 (a .533?) Call it a mid-plus or a large-minus. A tweener that can be built with existing parts.

jawbone62 · Post by **jawbone62** » Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:48 am

jtbandmusic wrote: ↑Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:46 pm OP here... About boutique horns: as a mediocre player, I would feel like a fool playing a $5000 trombone.
(Who does he think he's fooling?)

Anyone played a Conn 52H?
Is it good? Is it 'mid size'? Is it really a Benge?

John Thompson

I started playing trombone again after a 30 + year lay-off and picked up a Conn 52H from the early 2000s. I find it to be a great horn. I also have access to the Ralph Sauer dual bore Shires and a Bach 36 BO. The Conn may not have the finesse and subtlety of sound of these two horns but for sheer ease of playability and all-round competence it is a very good pick and it can fit into almost any environment. I would strongly recommend not least on price grounds - it is great value for money (supposedly many of parts and construction are based on 88H but i don’t know the detail).

rllantin · Post by **rllantin** » Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:28 pm

Having had several .525 horns over the years. Yamaha YSL 640 great slide, intonation, however 8.5" bell makes it a little less flexible as an all around horn tends sound more 547 ish. It also doesn't allow its' self to be colored as much sound wise. Works with a range of mouthpieces as well. Bach 36 excellent all around can sound bigger than what it is but pretty flexible. Have had several and they all play a bit different.
3B+ most flexible all around for my taste however required replacing the lead pipe with a B36 lead pipe to get the right air flow ... for me. This change also opens up the lower register a bit Net Net my vote a 3BF with B36 leadpipe

EOlson9 · Post by **EOlson9** » Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:45 pm

King 607f/608f would be a good "currently in production" horn. Hornguys has one 607f cheap.
https://www.hornguys.com/collections/me ... ne-b-stock

castrubone · Post by **castrubone** » Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:45 am

Finetales wrote: ↑Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:08 pm
Bach5G wrote: ↑Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:37 pm My point is simple: SEShires is a mainstream, albeit high end, brand, not “exotic, boutique”, whatever that means.
Eastman by Shires and Shires Q-series instruments are not boutique, but Shires Custom horns are the same level as they were in 2005, and are the same level of boutique (and as expensive) as Rath, M&W, etc. "Boutique" as applied to trombones, especially in the context we are discussing here, means custom built modular (or just extremely expensive handbuilt horns, like Schagerl and Thein), which is what the horns custom made by Steve Shires are.

Suggesting an Eastman or Shires Q-series .525 (if they made one) would be appropriate for the OP's request of production and not boutique. Suggesting a Shires custom .525, as great as they play, is not.

To me "boutique" implies a very small outfit hand-building very high quality horns. Not many makers fall into that category. M&W is an example and the new Stephen's horns by Steve Shires, or historically Minick and the old Greenhoe. Most high end horns are built in a large factory or fabricated in multiple locations. Not to say that they aren't well made, but rather to say that Griego and Steve Shires aren't personally hand-building every horn. Also price is not necessarily an indicator of build quality...a Bach artisan sells for about the same as an Edwards and not much less than an M&W.

Bach5G · Post by **Bach5G** » Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:54 pm

Exactly. Shires was boutique in 2005 when I went to Hopedale, tried a bunch of stuff, and ordered a horn.

Now that it’s a division of Eastman, it’s, well, a division of Eastman.

sterb225 · Post by **sterb225** » Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:14 pm

Best mid sized chassis I had was a .525" edwards with a 8", 23ga red, unsoldered bell and dual radius tuning slide. Incredibly easy to play with high range to burn and when really needed you could go bigger on the mouthpiece/leadpipe and get as big as any Elkhart 8H out there. Still miss that particular horn and wish finances hadn't forced me to sell it off.

CalgaryTbone · Post by **CalgaryTbone** » Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:00 pm

sterb225 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:14 pm Best mid sized chassis I had was a .525" edwards with a 8", 23ga red, unsoldered bell and dual radius tuning slide. Incredibly easy to play with high range to burn and when really needed you could go bigger on the mouthpiece/leadpipe and get as big as any Elkhart 8H out there. Still miss that particular horn and wish finances hadn't forced me to sell it off.

I have a similar Edwards (except the bell is yellow). Great, versatile instrument - the bell is nice on a .547 slide for some things too. I like it for Pops concerts that have a mix of commercial and light classical rep. It's a lot more convenient than bringing 2 horns to a gig.

Jim Scott