Advice wanted on trigger horn

[Gfactor]

Hi folks - I’m a newbie, I guess you could call me a geriatric beginner because I took up the trombone when I retired having playing the trumpet badly in my distant youth. Anyway, I’m loving it and after 18 months on a Yamaha student model .500 am ready to move up to a B flat/F horn. I’m thinking a middle bore .525 horn would suit me. Where I’m from (New Zealand) trombone shops aren’t exactly thick on the ground, but I managed to get my local shop to bring in a Bach TB200B. When I had a blow on it I found the trigger middle C sounded fine but the low F was horribly stuffy and anything below even worse. I tried a Getzen 547 Capri they had in the shop and that was pretty good all the way down to low C but I think it would be too large a bore for me. The Bach is a closed wrap and the Getzen open - would that make much of a difference? I have my eye on a Yamaha YSL 640 but I won’t be able to try before I buy.
My question is - is it possible to find a .525 horn that has a nice open low F and below or are they all a bit stuffy down there? Does the open wrap style make much difference? And finally, what do people think about the Yamaha 640?
Grateful for any advice! Greg

[BGuttman]

Hi and welcome!

The problem with many F-attachment horns is not the wrap but the valve. Bach is notorious for small valve ports and you need more opening to get the lower notes to speak.

The 3047 may have been tested with too open a mouthpiece and if you downsized it a bit you might have found it to be much better. Still, it is a pretty big horn, especially for a trumpet player.

I played a Yamaha 682 for years and thought it was a great horn and I have no doubt that a 640 would be great as well.

One caveat: many attachments have a rather flat low F when low C is in tune. Your "stuffiness" could have been caused by feeling like you needed to lip up the note. If you really want to use F in 1st, either have slide springs mounted in the cork barrels (lets you pull low F in tune by compressing the springs) or by tuning the attachment so F is in tune and C needs to be played just a little off the bumpers.

[hyperbolica]

The stuffy Bach could also be caused by a mouthpiece that is too small (use something about 6 1/2 sized) or a poorly adjusted valve or a leak in the horn somewhere. I've never played that model specifically but I do play 525 bore regularly, and horns in that size should have usable low ranges. It's not what they are built for, but they should play clearly below the staff.

For budget 525 instruments, you might also look at King 607 or 608, or a Conn 52h. A Bach 36b will be a much more expensive pro horn, but are generally well regarded.

The Yamaha you mentioned is also a worthy instrument.

[imsevimse]

My experience is it is not the horn that causes the problem that people describe as "stuffy".

I've come to this conclusion because I also felt that, but it was way back before I had my chops in order and now when they are in order there are no stuffy horns.

If it is not due to physical errors in the horn like a leak or the instrument is dirty, especially the leadpipe or mouthpiece, and you've got a mouthpiece that is suitable for you, and the register you play in is within what the instrument is built for then it is probably caused by insufficient technique (bad chops).

The new horns built by reputable factories today are good. Horns built more than 100 years ago may be different. I have a bunch of those too that are good but I can not guarantee quality control was good back then, but my over 100 year old horns are not stuffy.

It is very important to find the sweet spot for every sound on the horn on every blow. An economic blow that results in maximum sound for every input. If the mouthpiece also supports that there will not be many stuffy horns or bad horns. There can be horns that are better or worse for the kind of playing and sound you want but that is something else. If you adopt to the horn you will find the horn is not stuffy but the sweet spot sound may be a different sound than you expect. The key is you can not blow every horn the same.

/Tom

[tbonesullivan]

The response will be "different" but I'm not sure "stuffy" is the right word. Also it's possible that the valve ports were not aligned correctly.

That said, I feel that the Yamaha 640 would be an excellent choice. Very well made horn, very consistent, and Yamaha parts are easy to source, should you need them. Bach trombones tend to be over priced, across the board.

[greenbean]

I agree with Tom above. The stuffiness could result from the adjustment issues noted but is more likely to your not having played an F-att before. The blow is a bit different. After you spend some time on the horn, your brain/chops apparatus will adapt and you will wonder what all the fuss about stuffiness is.

--I haven't played that Bach so I can't comment.
--Getzens tend to be very good so that Capri is probably a decent horn. Haven't tried it.
--All the Yamaha medium- or large-bore horns would be a good choice. Their consistency is second to non and they are solid horns. I have owned the 640 and earlier medium-bore models 646 and 684 and they were all very, very good.

Have fun playing and learning!

[LeTromboniste]

Yup, as the others have said, the F attachment will make it feel quite different than you're used to. But it's also true that stuffiness is a fairly typical complaint for Bach valves. There's a reason why although there are many high level professionals who play on Bach 42s, very few have a traditional valve. Many have Thayers or Hagmanns. It really improves the horn as the original valve is tiny.

You ask about Yamaha 640, is that because you saw a second-hand one up for sale? It's not exactly in the same price range as the Bach you mentioned (it's a professional rather than student model).

There's a number of options. For a new instrument, Yamaha intermediate .525 are good. YSL-356 (which I think is now dual bore .500-.525?), YSL-446. If you go for the second-hand professional instrument route, I'd keep an eye for the Yam 640, Conn 79H. Also for Benge 175F - they are underrated and typically sell for much lower than other pro horns. You can get one for less than 1200$ sometimes.

[hyperbolica]

Stuffy is the word that people use when they feel resistance that they aren't accustomed to. I don't think it's necessarily a skill issue, more of an expectations issue. Some people think that resistance is a bad thing, and so assign some pejorative to it. Stuffiness often magically disappears when you stop trying to blow too much air through the horn, but it can also indicate some major sound/air inefficiency like I mentioned above, a leak, or a dead mouse, or a poorly adjusted valve.

[Gfactor]

Thanks guys for all the advice. The stuffiness on the Bach referred to the sound I was getting with the supplied mouthpiece (7c) at low F. Not a problem on the Getzen with a 6 1/2 AL. You may be surprised to know that here ‘downunder’ I can get the Yamaha cheaper new than the Bach, and that’s the route I think I’ll go.

[tbonesullivan]

The Yamahas are cheaper here too. They also have a much better global distribution network honestly.

[LeTromboniste]

Yamaha 640 cheaper than a Bach student/intermediate model? Then there's absolutely no question, go for it!

[tbonesullivan]

Yamaha 640 cheaper than a Bach student/intermediate model? Then there's absolutely no question, go for it!

The same is true in the US as well. The TB200F is around $2500 new, while the 640 is $2200.

[Jimkinkella]

A couple of opinions -
Stuffy only applies to the system, you are part of the system, the mouthpiece is part of the system, the horn is part of the system.
The entire system must be in balance.
You need to figure out how the system works itself out.
Next, buy used.
Wait, wait, and then wait some more.
It's infuriating, but finding the right horn makes all the difference.
Play as many horns as you can, play as many mouthpieces as you can.

Jim