Harmonic Bridge

[GBP]

For those of you who have fooled around with the harmonic bridge on a 502, what were your impressions on how the rods effected the feel and the sound? Placements seems critical, also. I have used all silver rods. The red, to me, make the horn play tight.

[BGuttman]

When you guys talk about harmonic bridges, i'm reminded of this one:https://youtu.be/j-zczJXSxnw

Sorry for the digression.

[harrisonreed]

The red "1" pillar is the only one I use. Try it next to the bell, up or down, as well as in tge center hole, up or down.

[bcschipper]

Does anyone know of a scientific study of the harmonic bridge or at least any blind test (both blind to the player and to the listener)? More generally, is there a scientific study of bracing and counterweights?

[SwissTbone]

I tried them on my 396a. To me they make a difference in feel. Until now I prefer the horn without any of the rods, it plays lighter to me.

The audience won't hear any difference I think...

[whitbey]

I have the single sound pillar on my Edwards.

At first I was skeptical. But I had to mess with it. I tried using a regular long bolt with a lock nut. It trashed the horn. My theory, if you can wreck it, it is making a difference.

My wife with no musical abilities past playing the radio can tell the difference between a nickle and copper post. Not blind, but had no idea why there was a change.

I decided I liked it and had one made for my jazz horn.

I found my straight Edwards played better with the counter weight closer to the neckpipe.

Once I found my choice, I have not changed it for a several years.

[harrisonreed]

I think it is one of the most innovative, if ignorantly resisted, developments in trombone design. The only bad part is that once you find what works the best ... that's kind of the end of the fun you have with it.

[bcschipper]

I think it is one of the most innovative, if ignorantly resisted, developments in trombone design. The only bad part is that once you find what works the best ... that's kind of the end of the fun you have with it.

Well, Edwards got a patent on it. So unless they license it sufficiently cheap, other builders won‘t touch it. It is also not clear whether some other bracing could achieve a similar effect. Since the Shires Alessi model doesn‘t have it but Edwards Alessi model has it, it suggests that either it is not effective or can be replicated with some custom bracing.

If Edwards really thinks it has a big effect, they should demonstrate it with a double blind test. But all I saw are videos like . Similarly, if other builders think it doesn‘t really work, they should have an incentive to demonstrate this with a double blind test. So having no test is a kind of puzzling.

Can’t be so difficult for them to get some trombone classes participating in a test designed by some music PhD student with a little statistical know how. The “treatments“ are the pillars and their positions (let‘s focus on the most extreme ones first) and the potential effects are the player‘s subjective experience and listeners‘ experience. Could be a fun project with serious marketing value (either way).

[harrisonreed]

I think it is one of the most innovative, if ignorantly resisted, developments in trombone design. The only bad part is that once you find what works the best ... that's kind of the end of the fun you have with it.

Well, Edwards got a patent on it. So unless they license it sufficiently cheap, other builders won‘t touch it. It is also not clear whether some other bracing could achieve a similar effect. Since the Shires Alessi model doesn‘t have it but Edwards Alessi model has it, it suggests that either it is not effective or can be replicated with some custom bracing.

If Edwards really thinks it has a big effect, they should demonstrate it with a double blind test. But all I saw are videos like . Similarly, if other builders think it doesn‘t really work, they should have an incentive to demonstrate this with a double blind test. So having no test is a kind of puzzling.

Can’t be so difficult for them to get some trombone classes participating in a test designed by some music PhD student with a little statistical know how. The “treatments“ are the pillars and their positions (let‘s focus on the most extreme ones first) and the potential effects are the player‘s subjective experience and listeners‘ experience. Could be a fun project with serious marketing value (either way).

First, Alessi admitted in the Edwards videos that he never used the pillars and that he was only curious about their potential. They did say that it was originally just a edge-brace / counterweight added towards the end of the design, when the horn already was close to the model that they were going for, so it was a part of the design before the pillar idea came about.

Second, and more importantly, how many blind tests or double blind tested have you seen on mouthpieces (especially mouthpieces!), bells, leadpipes (especially leadpipes!), Tuning crooks, slide crooks, etc have you seen? I haven't seen a single one, to say nothing of a convincing one. I don't think they've even done that convincingly with Stradivarius violins. We all know leadpipes and crooks affect the way a horn plays, and that's without any scientific studies. The harmonic bridge is the same way. Why single it out? Like I said ... it's a great tool, and it's ignorantly dismissed out of hand by many who have never tried it.

[tbonesullivan]

I think the brace is really more about the feedback between the player and the horn, and changing that. I'm not sure it is something that can be easily quantified. Like heavy mouthpiece blanks. It's not something that would really be able to heard: its about feel.

I did get to try out a T-396A when Dillon Music had one some years back, and yes, there is a difference when you've got the harmonic pillars installed. It's like installing or removing a counter weight, but not as extreme. It also allows a player to really fine tune it, without being "overkill", which would be little sockets for the pillars all over the horn.

[bcschipper]

Second, and more importantly, how many blind tests or double blind tested have you seen on mouthpieces (especially mouthpieces!), bells, leadpipes (especially leadpipes!), Tuning crooks, slide crooks, etc have you seen? I haven't seen a single one, to say nothing of a convincing one. I don't think they've even done that convincingly with Stradivarius violins. We all know leadpipes and crooks affect the way a horn plays, and that's without any scientific studies. The harmonic bridge is the same way. Why single it out? Like I said ... it's a great tool, and it's ignorantly dismissed out of hand by many who have never tried it.

Yes, you are right. At the first glance, singling out harmonic bridges looks a bit arbitrary. We should see much more systematic tests on all kinds of design features. I don’t think we have really a clear understanding of all these features. Yet, the case of the harmonic bridge is special as it is a relative recent and patented feature. Moreover, it is the glaring difference of the Shires Alessi and the Edwards Alessi. So the question about its effect is somehow immediate.

By the way, I am not dismissing any effect of the harmonic pillars. Quite to the contrary, I do like to see conclusive evidence. Even if it turns out to be just a placebo effect, it would interesting about psychology of playing brass instruments and how psychological states of the player affect playing.

[harrisonreed]

Why is the need to know immediate, though? Obviously the two models are different in other ways as well. They are two different horns. It's too bad that Edwards didn't release the original Alessi model with interchangeable leadpipes like Shires is doing... Maybe the new AR model will

[tbonesullivan]

Why is the need to know immediate, though? Obviously the two models are different in other ways as well. They are two different horns. It's too bad that Edwards didn't release the original Alessi model with interchangeable leadpipes like Shires is doing... Maybe the new AR model will

From the pictures I see, it looks like it still has the fixed leadpipe. I do wish that the Edwards website gave more concrete specifications on the T396 and B502 series. Like, bell size, leadpipe material, etc. The T396 doesn't give any information regarding those. I know they want to keep the "secret sauce" somewhat obscured, but things like that are what I really want to know when buying a brass instrument.

[castrubone]

Why is the need to know immediate, though? Obviously the two models are different in other ways as well. They are two different horns. It's too bad that Edwards didn't release the original Alessi model with interchangeable leadpipes like Shires is doing... Maybe the new AR model will

From the pictures I see, it looks like it still has the fixed leadpipe. I do wish that the Edwards website gave more concrete specifications on the T396 and B502 series. Like, bell size, leadpipe material, etc. The T396 doesn't give any information regarding those. I know they want to keep the "secret sauce" somewhat obscured, but things like that are what I really want to know when buying a brass instrument.

As far as I know the T-396 still has a 8.5" 2-piece unsoldered yellow brass bell and a sterling silver leadpipe, gold brass tuning slide, gold brass neckpipe/valve tubing, goldbrass handslide w/yellow crook. To the naked eye most of the changes are not readily visible (other than the rotor and no Alessi signature), they're subtle tweaks.

[BGuttman]

I'll be glad when the T-396 is no longer plastered with Alessi's name. I don't mind having a maker but I know I'll never play as well as Alessi and I don't want to besmirch his name playing a horn with his stamp.

[tbonesullivan]

I'll be glad when the T-396 is no longer plastered with Alessi's name. I don't mind having a maker but I know I'll never play as well as Alessi and I don't want to besmirch his name playing a horn with his stamp.

Never stopped me from trying to play Vincent Bach trumpets horribly...