Joe Alessi

[Tbarh]

New Rotary Valve? ... Interesting!

[tbonesullivan]

New Rotary Valve? ... Interesting!

I wonder how it is different from the two rotary valves they already offer? Maybe something similar to the Rotax?

I wonder if Edwards will/can keep selling the T-396A. I don't know what their agreement was with Alessi was.

This really reminds me of when a very famous rock guitar player switched brands in the mid 90s, and pretty much had the new company copy the old instrument, including a lot of features specific to that maker. The maker still makes that same guitar, with a few changes, and a different name.

The mouthpiece question though, that's a tough one. I can't see how there wouldn't be some issues.

[timbone]

So my friends, what have we learned from this discussion?

[Bassbonechandler]

This is crazy! I would have never thought he'd switch from Edwards.

[GabrielRice]

New Rotary Valve? ... Interesting!

Unless I misunderstood what I was told, it's the standard rotary valve, but with the open loop wrap (which blows a bit more freely than the cross-over wrap that has been standard), different bracing, and a bronze valve cap.

This is not a Shires version of the Edwards Alessi, though it certainly shares some characteristics.

[JohnL]

So my friends, what have we learned from this discussion?

That having a trombonist of Joe Alessi's stature change brands of instrument will definitely create some buzz.

I would expect the T-396A to remain in the catalog for now, sans any reference to Mr. Alessi. It'll be interesting to see if they sell enough units without JA's endorsement to justify retaining it in the catalog over the long term.

[chromebone]

Eastman recently acquired Laskey mouthpieces. Maybe there’ll be an Alessi model mouthpiece appearing at some point.

[Bassbonechandler]

Eastman recently acquired Laskey mouthpieces. Maybe there’ll be an Alessi model mouthpiece appearing at some point.

That would be interesting for sure.

[timbone]

One thing you can be sure about- Branding. All over it. Eastman has given him reign that no other manufacturer wanted to allow. You're right,next comes a series of branded mouthpieces following the Alessi rotor.

[norbie2018]

His name is on a trombone through Edwards and a series of mouth pieces through Griego. What are you talking about?

[chromebone]

Looking at the Edwards Website https://www.edwards-instruments.com/trombones/t396-ar/, Alessi is gone from the artist roster. The T-396 is now called the T-396 AR and appears to be a bit different from the original. No more rotax valve, for instance, looks like an in house valve instead.

[ZacharyThornton]

https://www.edwards-instruments.com/trombones/t396-ar/

[Bassbonechandler]

Does this mean at Midwest they won't have the T396-A?

[ZacharyThornton]

Does this mean at Midwest they won't have the T396-A?

They will have the new model they have been shipping since they found out about Joe leaving I assume.

[Bach5G]

Eastman recently acquired Laskey mouthpieces. Maybe there’ll be an Alessi model mouthpiece appearing at some point.

That would be inevitable for sure.

Fixed that.

30 years on Edwards, apparently.

[FEWeathers]

Ben Griffin, circa 2016...

[Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?

Post by ttf_griffinben » Fri Sep 16, 2016 7:49 am
Quote from: tombone21 on Sep 15, 2016, 10:03AMWhat Shires components are most similar to the Edwards Alessi horn?

In the interest of "what-ifs", because they are fun, the following components would be most similar to the Alessi horn (in my opinion):

Bell: 2YLW T7
Tuning slide: TG
Valve: Standard rotor, LW
Slides: TB47GLYC
Leadpipe: 2.5SS or 3SS

Of course this will not play exactly like the Alessi horn, because it is an Edwards and we make Shires. There are differences that go beyond the available specs (from either manufacturer) that we offer that make a large difference between the brands. Both the bell and slide would be special orders from us, and the slide wouldn't be returnable if you didn't like it. The Alessi horn features gold brass for the valve tubing, which we do not currently offer.

If you (or anyone else) would truly like to build an "orchestral powerhouse" trombone from Shires, I suggest you visit us at the factory or at a major show and we can find the right components that balance with you.

- Ben]

https://www.trombonechat.com/viewtopic. ... +T7#p12677

[BurckhardtS]

https://www.seshires.com/alessi-announcement

[Burgerbob]

https://www.edwards-instruments.com/tro ... ASY1LJ9Nz8

[Bach5G]

From Edwards, re the T396-AR:

“Designed, tested, and proven with orchestral players from St. Louis, Washington DC, and, of course, New York.”

Of course.

[Bassbonechandler]

Did anyone else noticed they changed the information about the b502 as well?

[ZacharyThornton]

Did anyone else noticed they changed the information about the b502 as well?

Yep I have play tested the new B502 and it is killer. It has been in the works for around a year now. That is the horn I am going too.

[Bassbonechandler]

Did anyone else noticed they changed the information about the b502 as well?

Yep I have play tested the new B502 and it is killer. It has been in the works for around a year now. That is the horn I am going too.

What's different about it? No more rotax valves?

[norbie2018]

Eastman recently acquired Laskey mouthpieces. Maybe there’ll be an Alessi model mouthpiece appearing at some point.

I hope they bring back the "standard" mps, (59md, etc.) as well.

[jacobgarchik]

old enough to remember him (and most of the rest of the classical world) playing a Bach 42. and sounding...much the same.

[ZacharyThornton]

Yep I have play tested the new B502 and it is killer. It has been in the works for around a year now. That is the horn I am going too.

What's different about it? No more rotax valves?

I will let Christan and the boys comment on that. No more rotax though. A lot of other changes too.

[castrubone]

I played the new T-396AR a couple weeks ago. I’d say the new valve is just a smidge tighter blow compared to the Rotax. Otherwise, I honestly couldn’t tell much difference between it and the original T-396A that I played for many years.

[ZacharyThornton]

I played the new T-396AR a couple weeks ago. I’d say the new valve is just a smidge tighter blow compared to the Rotax. Otherwise, I honestly couldn’t tell much difference between it and the original T-396A that I played for many years.

And everyone I know says it is more open...

[castrubone]

Individual mileage may vary you could say...

Interestingly, I tried it without anybody telling me it wasn’t a Rotax! I played it for a while and thought it felt different. At that point the sales rep told me it was indeed the new “AR” valve. I was quite surprised as I didn’t know they were switching at that point. Not an improvement in my book, but others might disagree.

I will say I found it more open than the Edwards CR rotor.

[Omeednymanbasstrombone]

Where’s the love for Jinbao

[tbonesullivan]

Eastman recently acquired Laskey mouthpieces. Maybe there’ll be an Alessi model mouthpiece appearing at some point.

I hope they bring back the "standard" mps, (59md, etc.) as well.

Honeslty, I seriously doubt there will be an Alessi model from Laskey. Why?

Because all they bought were the designs, machinery, etc. They didn't buy the late Scott Laskey. Unless they have some hidden mouthpiece guru, I think their first steps are going to be putting all of the laskey models into production.

It will however be up to Eastman how they handle their acquisitions. They may work with shires to further develop the Laskey line. Who knows. The Griego Mouthpieces website still lists all of the Griego-Alessi mouthpieces, so maybe that will not change.

[Bach5G]

Joe likely has a separate deal with Christan. But, when it’s up ...

[GBP]

This seems like it could cause a pretty big change in the landscape, as it seems Shires is taking over what used to be an Edwards dominant market.

I love the sound these guys make together.

[GBP]

I used to wonder how many trombones Bill Watrous sold for Bach.

Other professionals aren't going to buy a horn because Bill Watrous played it. Lots of aspiring students will however.

Students tend to play what their teacher’s recommend. There will not be a mass exodus from any manufacturer to another. I think the value of Alessi is not his name but his input into the horn. I have a 502 and it is an amazing playing horn, neck in neck with the Greenhoe I own. I also have a CRE and it is very good, but not in the same league as the other two. Input from a great player, I believe, creates great equipment. Some of the best balanced mouthpieces I have are signature models. A person who understands design and a person knows how to make good sound generally combine to make good playing equipment.

[tbonesullivan]

Looks like there is also a Q-series Alessi horn as well.

https://www.seshires.com/tbqalessi

That definitely means more sales, and more $$$. With Eastman behind them, more money can be paid to artists as part of endorsement deals, as well as possible endorsement deals directly with the orchestras that they play with. Mind you I have no idea if any of that has happened, but they definitely have a much more secure financial situation than formerly.

[JohnL]

Looks like there is also a Q-series Alessi horn as well.

https://www.seshires.com/tbqalessi

That definitely means more sales, and more $$$.

By offering Alessi models in both the Artist line and the Q-Series, Shires (Eastman) should be able to get significantly more mileage out of JA's name than Edwards was able to do with just the T-396A. The question now is whether they will try to extend the "halo effect" to the Eastman-branded trombones and, if they do, how successful will they be?

[Bach5G]

Eastman is an interesting story. Qian Ni, the founder, was born in Beijing, but attended music school in Boston, studying the flute.

He founded Eastman Strings in 1992. Eastman is a now a pretty heavy hitter in the global music business, owning Shires, Backun clarinets, Laskey mpcs, Haynes flutes, Bourgeois guitars, along with Eastman Strings and Eastman winds.

Not bad.

[Mv2541]

Something I noticed today: for the Shires Alessi wrap the air flows backwards from their normal rotors- not that it's a big deal, but I have to wonder why (or what was wrong with their normal wrap)?

[paulyg]

Something I noticed today: for the Shires Alessi wrap the air flows backwards from their normal rotors- not that it's a big deal, but I have to wonder why (or what was wrong with their normal wrap)?

Changing the positions of the wide-radius and narrow-radius bends in the attachment near the valve moved the tip of the tuning bow closer to the bell- the wrap is more compact this way.

[Mv2541]

Something I noticed today: for the Shires Alessi wrap the air flows backwards from their normal rotors- not that it's a big deal, but I have to wonder why (or what was wrong with their normal wrap)?

Changing the positions of the wide-radius and narrow-radius bends in the attachment near the valve moved the tip of the tuning bow closer to the bell- the wrap is more compact this way.

I was thinking that, but I doubt that small savings would be why they created a whole new wrap.

[Burgerbob]

It's what Joe wanted, so they did it.

[tbonesullivan]

It's what Joe wanted, so they did it.

YEP! Being bored and on the internet, it's interesting to see which direction different companies have taken with their rotary valve wraps. They have definitely gone to the style used by Edwards/Getzen, Greenhoe, Schilke, Rath, and others. I think that Shires was really the only company who liked the "crossover" design for traditional rotors. And of course Bach, Conn, Courtois, Yamaha, etc use the 90 / 180 orientation for their open wrap horns.

I wonder if the reason that Shires liked the crossover was that it mean that the air and sound were moving the same direction around the bell section, like with an axial flow valve. Or maybe they just wanted their F-attachment wrap to be more identifiable from a distance.

[timbone]

Are you talking about what is referred to as the star valve?

[GabrielRice]

Something I noticed today: for the Shires Alessi wrap the air flows backwards from their normal rotors- not that it's a big deal, but I have to wonder why (or what was wrong with their normal wrap)?

This open loop design blows a little bigger and more free, and I think the only reason for it is the drop of solder where the tubes cross over in the other design.

Not everybody wants that - for some who like a rotary valve, the slightly more compact feel of the other wrap is preferred.

[Kevbach33]

Tangential question(s) about Shires in general:

Does the crossover wrap for the rotary valve allow for an E-pull? And if so, why hasn't the single bass section adopted it? Or has it? Last time I had checked or seen one on the web, the single rotary section for bass was wrapped like the Alessi horn, and I don't recall this style allowing a pull to E.

Call me old school, even at 26, but I feel that all single valve basses (using a rotary valve) should have an E-pull as standard equipment.

[GabrielRice]

Tangential question(s) about Shires in general:

Does the crossover wrap for the rotary valve allow for an E-pull?

No.

I don't find the E pull works on traditional wraps anyway.

[Kevbach33]

I see. Thanks Gabe.

Seems like only 90/180° port open wraps (Conn and formerly Kanstul from what I've seen, and also Thein) and traditional wraps (Conn again with 7xH and 60H basses) have the ability to tune to E.

Now back to your regular programming...

[tbonesullivan]

I have wondered why the tuning slides on the F-attachment are so long, even when an E-pull isn't possible or intended. Is it for stability reasons, or is it just cheaper to make them that way? Even Bass trombones have very long attachment tuning slides.

[paulyg]

I have wondered why the tuning slides on the F-attachment are so long, even when an E-pull isn't possible or intended. Is it for stability reasons, or is it just cheaper to make them that way? Even Bass trombones have very long attachment tuning slides.

1) Might have to do with not wanting any nodes at the step between the inner and outer slide legs

2) F-tuning varies a lot player to player, and mouthpiece to mouthpiece, and leadpipe to leadpipe.

3) Longer slides help with engagement/alignment, making for a more rigid assembly and smoother operation

4) Outer legs are thicker and often nickel-silver, and more damage-resistant, handy when slides can get stuck.

[mfellows821]

Can anyone tell me the difference between the Alessi Artist model and the Alessi Q model?

[chromebone]

Can anyone tell me the difference between the Alessi Artist model and the Alessi Q model?

About $3000