German trombone - Odd slide lock system

[LeTromboniste]

I just picked up a German trombone I bought online. Mid-20th century I think, but traditionnal German design with wide thin-walled bell, long slide, no leadpipe, floating slide brace, wide kranz, snakes, etc. so it's hard to date for sure. Beautiful horn — slide makes it sound a bit stuffy and I'll have to figure out either if it's leaking or if it's a question of finding the right mouthpiece for it — but the bell is really, really good (tried with another slide that I know is good).

But there is something with this horn I've never seen before. The top of the outer slide tubes has a smaller bore than the outer diameter of the (very short) stockings, which means the slide cannot be dropped (useful for long 7th position I guess!) as it won't go past the stockings! The top of the tubes is detachable (they are threaded) so that you can remove the outer slide when cleaning and/or lubricating.

I'm not sure about the maker of this instrument and this seems like a pretty distinctive feature so I'm wondering if anyone has seen that before.

[brassmedic]

I have one like that. Unfortunately, mine appears to have a poorly made replacement bell, so there's no way to tell who made the slide.

[LeTromboniste]

I have one like that. Unfortunately, mine appears to have a poorly made replacement bell, so there's no way to tell who made the slide.

Shoot! Mine is engraved with "Christian Reisser Instrumentenfabrik" but I'm pretty sure it was made after WWII (seller said 1960's but they didn't seem to have any info about the history of the horn so I'm not sure how they know about the date), and from what I can gather, Christian Reisser stopped making instruments during the war and afterwards turned to only trading, originally marketing instruments made by other firms or workshop in West Germany. Which workshop would have made this horn is the question of course.

[shider]

Interesting Instrument!
Did you contact the current company in Ulm? They have a short segment on their homepage, but i guess you have to understand german.. they only offer their page in german: https://www.reisser-musik.de/unsere-geschichte/
@Maximilien: i assume you understand german, but maybe this might be interesting for other readers:
A summary of the history-part on their website: the original Christian Reisser founded the company in 1874. In 1912 the company changed Leadership to Christian Reisser jun.
Christian Reisser jun. died after being wounded in WW 1 and his widow took over the company and married Wilhem Nonnenberg... Then in WW 2 the companies buildings were destroyed and the rebuilt after the war and moved to a new shopfloor.
If they stopped making istruments is not written there..
But they still have a repair shop and i assume they might have some (of their own) historical trombones still there for reference or for display...
I should really pay them a visit some time, i live only 60km away and my Musikverein buys instruments from them on the regular..

[bcschipper]

Why don’t you ask Reisser in Ulm? The shop is still around.

https://www.reisser-musik.de/

Regarding “stuffy” sound, American trombone mouthpieces do not work very well on these trombones. Get a Schmidt Prof. Bambula TP3 3/4 or similar.

[LeTromboniste]

Why don’t you ask Reisser in Ulm? The shop is still around.

https://www.reisser-musik.de/

Regarding “stuffy” sound, American trombone mouthpieces do not work very well on these trombones. Get a Schmidt Prof. Bambula TP3 3/4 or similar.

I wrote them before I purchased the instrument and did not get a reply, but I might try again.

About the mouthpiece, yes I know. I tried it with a variety of German mouthpieces I have access to (mostly old/antique/historical, though). My problem is most of the ones I have in my possession at the moment are small or medium shank, and the receiver on this horn takes large shank mouthpieces (despite the bore being rather small — between 12 and 12.5mm, straight bore), so I couldn't try all the options. I'm leaving for two weeks today but when I'm back I'll get some floss to wrap around the shanks and try some of the other ones to see if it helps.

I did find out after posting my original post that the compression on the slide is not great, and also not consistent. If I cover one end of the slide and blow in the other, a more than ideal amount of air leaks from the top of the outer, but more importantly the resistance/amount of air that leaks varies if I move the outer slide out — some spots have suddenly much better compression and others much worse.

[brassmedic]

Beautiful trombone! Yeah, the old German instruments seemed to have the resistance in the mouthpiece, whereas we now put it in the leadpipe.

[nopos]

ITS a « Zug mit Führung « or slide stabilizer. First used by famous german trombone maker Robert Piering in the 1880’s. It was never intended as a slide lock, but to improve slide action and sound by allowing for a bit more tolerance in the slide tubes while keeping the stability and compression of the slide. Some pics of my Piering alto slide with this system. You can even see the D.R.G.M number, Deutsches Reichsgebrauchsmuster, an early 20th century copyright.

14CD5D65-94A3-4508-9C34-B6EA542362DB.jpeg

[bcschipper]

D.R.G.M. 18485 is from September 26, 1893. But Piering himself writes later that they used it since 1882. It was presented at the "Saechsisch-Thueringische Industrie- und Gewerbeausstellung" (Saxony-Thuringia Industry and Business Fair) in Leipzig 1887 and won a silver medal. In the exhibition report is written (my translation) "As a respectable representative of the vogtlandic brass instrument makers we must mention the company Rob. Piering in Adorf, who presents instruments of best workmanship in cabinet 13. The slide with retainer ("Zug mit Fuehrung") warrants special attention in the exhibit of the trombone quartet. It is a protected invention of the maker, well-established over the last four years. ..." (Source: Weller, E., "Der Blasinstrumentenbau im Vogtland von den Anfaengen bis zum Beginn des 20. Jahrhunderts", Dissertation University Chemnitz, 2002, published by the Verein der Freunde und Foerderer des Musikinstrumenten-Museums Markneukirchen e.V. in 2004, p. 234).

Regarding mouthpieces for German romantic trombones, they different from baroque or classical trombones. Small shank is no problem. Every music shop will sell you an adapter, which is not ideal but works in the short run. Schmidt is very reliable in sending stuff timely. You can have any shank you want. They have a good online catalog:
https://www.schmidt-brass.de/englisch/m ... ombone.htm

[LeTromboniste]

D.R.G.M. 18485 is from September 26, 1893. But Piering himself writes later that they used it since 1882. It was presented at the "Saechsisch-Thueringische Industrie- und Gewerbeausstellung" (Saxony-Thuringia Industry and Business Fair) in Leipzig 1887 and won a silver medal. In the exhibition report is written (my translation) "As a respectable representative of the vogtlandic brass instrument makers we must mention the company Rob. Piering in Adorf, who presents instruments of best workmanship in cabinet 13. The slide with retainer ("Zug mit Fuehrung") warrants special attention in the exhibit of the trombone quartet. It is a protected invention of the maker, well-established over the last four years. ..." (Source: Weller, E., "Der Blasinstrumentenbau im Vogtland von den Anfaengen bis zum Beginn des 20. Jahrhunderts", Dissertation University Chemnitz, 2002, published by the Verein der Freunde und Foerderer des Musikinstrumenten-Museums Markneukirchen e.V. in 2004, p. 234).

Thank you,super interesting information!!

Regarding mouthpieces for German romantic trombones, they different from baroque or classical trombones. Small shank is no problem. Every music shop will sell you an adapter, which is not ideal but works in the short run. Schmidt is very reliable in sending stuff timely. You can have any shank you want. They have a good online catalog:
https://www.schmidt-brass.de/englisch/m ... ombone.htm

Yes I know Schmidt, and I'm aware the romantic mouthpieces differ from baroque and classical. What I meant by of old/antique/historical was I tried it with old romantic German mouthpieces from the 19th and early 20th century.

That being said a Weschke or prof. Alchausky or prof. Bambula is also different from a mid-19th century mouthpiece.

[Basbasun]

Because of my old age i sold most of my German trombones (two left) my Robert Piering was a beutiful horn, did not blend with modern horns. Piering and Kruspe could still be found in the 70s in Sweden. Yes that funny slide stopper was a common idea with those horns.

[nopos]

I use Schmidt Bambula and Solist series in my old Pierings and find them to be a good match. There’s also a choice of vintage designs, the F.A.H series (after Heckel) and the recently added Kruspe series.

He also makes copies of old Piering trombones, on his webside under trombones and then scroll down to «romantic trombones» https://www.schmidt-brass.de/englisch/ ... ombone.htm

No Alto though, heres more pics of mine. It’s quite large with a 7.5 inch bell and the slide width is about the same as a modern Bach 50 bass!

8071A676-778B-4C1B-889E-4CCCC9F4C82D.jpeg

[MStarke]

What a nice alto!

Actually I have one of those Piering tenor copies that you mentioned.
Very beautiful horn, no tuning mechanism which obviously makes correct pitch a bit more difficult.
Great sound although I am not yet completely settled on a mouthpiece. Certainly also due to the fact that it only gets maybe 10% of my very limited practice time.

I will try to post a picture during the day.

[MStarke]

Some pictures of my Piering tenor.
It's a dual bore slide (13.2 and 13.7 mm) with large mouthpiece receiver.
Very front-heavy which is why I am thinking about adding a counterweight.
Also I will most likely remove the lacquer from the bell - somehow I prefer that for most of my trombones.

Hope you can see the pictures!

[nopos]

Nice tenor! Agree about great sound and poor ergonomics.. The very lightweight bell section and heavy slide may be a key factor to the sound so I’m a bit sceptical about a counterweight. I have 2 tenors both with original tuning slides, was that an option?

[johntarr]

With a slide that won’t fall off, it cOld be useful for Turmblasen from the Münster in Basel. But seriously, thanks for the op and the following posts and pictures.

[LeTromboniste]

With a slide that won’t fall off, it cOld be useful for Turmblasen from the Münster in Basel. But seriously, thanks for the op and the following posts and pictures.

My goodness, those towers. We were talking for two years about we should go play from there with an alta capella group...I thought it would be great, but then I actually went up the towers for the first time when showing the city to family and just the thought of holding my slide trumpet over the edge made me want to lose my lunch xD

Some pictures of my Piering tenor.
It's a dual bore slide (13.2 and 13.7 mm) with large mouthpiece receiver.
Very front-heavy which is why I am thinking about adding a counterweight.
Also I will most likely remove the lacquer from the bell - somehow I prefer that for most of my trombones.

Hope you can see the pictures!

Very nice!! Aso nopos' alto!

[MStarke]

Nice tenor! Agree about great sound and poor ergonomics.. The very lightweight bell section and heavy slide may be a key factor to the sound so I’m a bit sceptical about a counterweight. I have 2 tenors both with original tuning slides, was that an option?

Thanks for your reply!

I am very hesitant about adding the counterweight for exactly that reason...
My hope is that by not adding a complete brace, but only a weight attached to the trombone with just one touchpoint this would not impact vibration/response too much.
In the end it can be removed again. Let's see if I will really have it done.

A normal tuning slide would not have been an option as this would have destroyed the fully conical bell section which is said to play a major role in the sound characteristics.
Schmidt offered to build a TIS mechanism. But this would have made the balance issue even worse and they recommended not to do it...

[bcschipper]

Yes I know Schmidt, and I'm aware the romantic mouthpieces differ from baroque and classical. What I meant by of old/antique/historical was I tried it with old romantic German mouthpieces from the 19th and early 20th century.

That being said a Weschke or prof. Alchausky or prof. Bambula is also different from a mid-19th century mouthpiece.

You haven't gotten a mid 19th century trombone either.

19th century mouthpieces were not that standardized. Even the shank sizes varied a lot. I think the idea at that time was more that the mouthpiece has to fit to the trombone rather than the player. Nowadays, the conception is that the mouthpiece has to fit foremost to the player. With German trombones likes yours, the ideal conception should be somewhere in the middle. I got Weschke, Alschausky, various Bambula. They all play very differently. My guess is Bambula will fit well to the instrument but I am not sure how it fits to you. Alschausky is unplayable for me because of this huge rim (made for him after an injury). May be you want to make a trip to Markneukirchen: visit Schmidt and Helmut Voigt (there you can really play German trombones).

Schmidt makes mouthpieces since the 18th century. They can get you also a 19th century copy.

[bcschipper]

Because of my old age i sold most of my German trombones (two left) my Robert Piering was a beutiful horn, did not blend with modern horns. Piering and Kruspe could still be found in the 70s in Sweden. Yes that funny slide stopper was a common idea with those horns.

I am not sure about issues with blend. You can vary the timbre much more on German trombones. I play in a section with Kruspe Weschke on first, Bach 42 or Conn 88H on second, and Edwards Bass trombone. We sound nice. Balance is initially an issue as Amercian trombones play typically louder but when all players listen to each other, it works well.

[bcschipper]

I use Schmidt Bambula and Solist series in my old Pierings and find them to be a good match. There’s also a choice of vintage designs, the F.A.H series (after Heckel) and the recently added Kruspe series.

He also makes copies of old Piering trombones, on his webside under trombones and then scroll down to «romantic trombones» https://www.schmidt-brass.de/englisch/ ... ombone.htm

No Alto though, heres more pics of mine. It’s quite large with a 7.5 inch bell and the slide width is about the same as a modern Bach 50 bass!
- picture -

Last time I visited, they planned on an alto trombone.

All copies I tried I did not like.

A wide slide width on alto trombones mostly depends on the neck size of the player. Helmut Voigt makes also altos with very wide slide width.

[bcschipper]

What a nice alto!

Actually I have one of those Piering tenor copies that you mentioned.
Very beautiful horn, no tuning mechanism which obviously makes correct pitch a bit more difficult.
Great sound although I am not yet completely settled on a mouthpiece. Certainly also due to the fact that it only gets maybe 10% of my very limited practice time.

I will try to post a picture during the day.

Piering made also trombones with in-slide tuning mechanism.

[bcschipper]

Nice tenor! Agree about great sound and poor ergonomics.. The very lightweight bell section and heavy slide may be a key factor to the sound so I’m a bit sceptical about a counterweight. I have 2 tenors both with original tuning slides, was that an option?

Don't add counterweights. You don't need it. It takes a month of daily practice of 40 min to 1 1/2 hours to get used to play without counterweights. The hand will be painful at first. But after a month everything is fine.

Counterweights let the horn vibrate differently in your hand. Braces change the response.

[MStarke]

Nice tenor! Agree about great sound and poor ergonomics.. The very lightweight bell section and heavy slide may be a key factor to the sound so I’m a bit sceptical about a counterweight. I have 2 tenors both with original tuning slides, was that an option?

Don't add counterweights. You don't need it. It takes a month of daily practice of 40 min to 1 1/2 hours to get used to play without counterweights. The hand will be painful at first. But after a month everything is fine.

Counterweights let the horn vibrate differently in your hand. Braces change the response.

1) Maybe you are right
2) That amount of getting used to it actually confirms that ergonomics are bad/worse than on other trombones
3) I simply do not have that amount of time to practice. I am very busy in my job/own business, have two small kids, a wife and multiple other trombones to take care of