Bach slide alternatives

[ThePousane]

I saw a post on facebook about people replacing their stock Bach slides with Edwards, Shires, etc. slides. I have found my Bach to be uncentered and have a rather slow response. Also, my articulations are not as direct and pointed as would like (maybe because of yellow crook?). In contrast, my Shires (which has the TB47 slide with a nickel crook) responds quickly, is centered, and has the direct and pointed articulations.

So my question is if I put a TB47 slide (with a Bach receiver of course) or an Edwards slide w/ a nickel crook on my Bach bell, is it possible to get a similar level of flexibility and articulation I get out of my Shires?

Edit: I also just took a look at my Bach and Shires slide next to each other. It seems the Bach slide is a slight amount longer than the Shires slide. Does slide length make a substantial difference?

[FullPedalTrombonist]

You’ll hear possibly more informative replies, but it comes down to a couple key things.

Your Bach just may be entirely sluggishly playing. It could be more than just the slide let alone the crook by itself. If you had two Shires exactly the same except the slide crooks maybe we could do an experiment but even then no two pieces of anything are that identical. My bet is that, not saying you have a bad Bach, but that you simply like your Shires better however it is setup or designed entirely.

If one of the many factors that make your Shires slide different than your Bach’s fixes what you want fixed then go ahead and order one with a Bach/Edwards tenon.

The length is more noticeable if you are used to going really far out for 7th pos. stuff. The proportions of slide length and bell section length ( cylindrical and conical lengths ) really are key to an instrument’s design. Having a slide that must give us 7 positions locks us in with not too much room to change that so there shouldn’t be a huge issue. I’ve swapped Shires and Bach bass slides as an experiment and ended up liking how they originally were. YMMV.

[Matt K]

You've pretty much nailed the generalization. Check out this response from Ben Griffin from the Q&A thread from when he was at Shires:

I've got a 1972 36B that I like a lot, but it's losing plating on the inner slide stockings and the slide is generally showing its age despite an overhaul a few years back. I'm thinking pretty seriously about replacing/adding a Shires slide to it, probably a 2547. My playing with this horn is mostly 1st part in brass band and (large) concert bands. I'm currently using an Elliott XT103.D.D4 setup.

1. Will I have to replace the slide receiver? Ideally, I'd like to be able to continue to use the Bach's original slide when I want to use it.
2. Is this likely to work out well, or should I stick with a straight .525 slide?

Thanks in advance.

We've had a lot of people use our large bore and bass slides with different brands but few with medium bore. I'd like to know a little more about what particular characteristics you are looking for out of a new slide and what you both like and dislike about your current set-up before making a recommendation in this particular instance.

I will provide some general information here for the greater good regarding this type of thing.

My first piece advice is always: beware. When starting to swap pieces and parts between different manufacturers there is always potential for some adverse side effects or results, simply because the parts were not designed to be used together int he first place. It's like dropping a Honda Accord V6 into a Toyota Camry but wanting to use the Toyota transmission.

The bell receiver/threaded tenon (slide side) is a separate part that can easily be swapped out to a 50/42/36 part. There is no "Bach compatible" part that we manufacture at the factory, it can only be done aftermarket. The lower inner tube extends into this piece and our slide tube length and Bach slide tube length is different, though I am not sure whether ours is longer or shorter off the top of my head right now.

Bach slide length is longer than Shires by 3/8", on bass, large bore, and medium bore models. If you would like similar tuning, we usually recommend opting for an "L" (long) slide, which is a factory option for wide slides only. Long slides tend to feel a little more "locked in" to the harmonic series. Standard length slides move a little more easier through the harmonic series.

Similarly, our standard width slides are narrower than both 42 and 36 bore instruments. These are already "L"/long slide to compensate for the overall lengths lost from the narrow width. They are not available with a further "L"/Long option.

Our "W"/Wide slides largely compare Bach large and medium bore instruments. If you are looking for a replacement as close to a 36 I would recommend this, though our slide does play differently than a 36. This slide works extremely well with the large shank MT receiver leadpipes, making it more open and more like a little big horn.

Our 1.5 venturi leadpipes are most similar to standard leadpipes on a 50/42/36.

I hope this information is helpful.

I played a similar Bach 42 with a Shires slide (both a 525 and a 547 slide) for about a year, maybe 2 years, before switching totally to Shires. I find that it worked very well but I swapped out the slide receiver and Valve on the Bach so it fit Shires slides naturally. Edwards slides and Bach slides "should be" fully compatible but sometimes the threads are off by a small amount.

Additionally, I really, really like nickel crooks with yellow outers. Preferably w/o oversleeves too, fwiw. I find that that combination works well for me on almost any horn. I don't know why but you start adding too much weight with oversleeves or making it too much yellow or too much nickel it goes too far in any direction for me to like but a little bit of both is a goldilocks slide for me, usually.

That said, will you get as much flexibility as your Shires? Maybe. Depends on the Shires configuration and everything else about your setup. Bach bells are most similar to the type 5 bells. They're one piece and have a much different profile than their 2 and 7 bells (which are, incidentally, the most popular of the varieties. They only made a handful of type 3; 1 and 8 are not particularly popular). If you have a Shires with a Type 5 bell, your Bach will likely respond similar to the Shires. If you don't... really hard to say.

As Ben indicated from the quote, the 1.5 leadpipe is most similar. If you have a different pipe you can expect it to respond differently than the Bach slide which may or may not be good. Another option is to take your Bach bell and buy mounting hardware for the Shires setup. I played on such a setup for a few years before switching to a type 2 bell and now I play on something that much more closely resembles a Conn 88. So before you go changing lots of stuff around it might behoove you to see if you can get your hands on some configurations and see if you're assembling something that is your ideal or just incrementally better than what you have!

[ThePousane]

You've pretty much nailed the generalization. Check out this response from Ben Griffin from the Q&A thread from when he was at Shires:

We've had a lot of people use our large bore and bass slides with different brands but few with medium bore. I'd like to know a little more about what particular characteristics you are looking for out of a new slide and what you both like and dislike about your current set-up before making a recommendation in this particular instance.

I will provide some general information here for the greater good regarding this type of thing.

My first piece advice is always: beware. When starting to swap pieces and parts between different manufacturers there is always potential for some adverse side effects or results, simply because the parts were not designed to be used together int he first place. It's like dropping a Honda Accord V6 into a Toyota Camry but wanting to use the Toyota transmission.

The bell receiver/threaded tenon (slide side) is a separate part that can easily be swapped out to a 50/42/36 part. There is no "Bach compatible" part that we manufacture at the factory, it can only be done aftermarket. The lower inner tube extends into this piece and our slide tube length and Bach slide tube length is different, though I am not sure whether ours is longer or shorter off the top of my head right now.

Bach slide length is longer than Shires by 3/8", on bass, large bore, and medium bore models. If you would like similar tuning, we usually recommend opting for an "L" (long) slide, which is a factory option for wide slides only. Long slides tend to feel a little more "locked in" to the harmonic series. Standard length slides move a little more easier through the harmonic series.

Similarly, our standard width slides are narrower than both 42 and 36 bore instruments. These are already "L"/long slide to compensate for the overall lengths lost from the narrow width. They are not available with a further "L"/Long option.

Our "W"/Wide slides largely compare Bach large and medium bore instruments. If you are looking for a replacement as close to a 36 I would recommend this, though our slide does play differently than a 36. This slide works extremely well with the large shank MT receiver leadpipes, making it more open and more like a little big horn.

Our 1.5 venturi leadpipes are most similar to standard leadpipes on a 50/42/36.

I hope this information is helpful.

I played a similar Bach 42 with a Shires slide (both a 525 and a 547 slide) for about a year, maybe 2 years, before switching totally to Shires. I find that it worked very well but I swapped out the slide receiver and Valve on the Bach so it fit Shires slides naturally. Edwards slides and Bach slides "should be" fully compatible but sometimes the threads are off by a small amount.

Additionally, I really, really like nickel crooks with yellow outers. Preferably w/o oversleeves too, fwiw. I find that that combination works well for me on almost any horn. I don't know why but you start adding too much weight with oversleeves or making it too much yellow or too much nickel it goes too far in any direction for me to like but a little bit of both is a goldilocks slide for me, usually.

That said, will you get as much flexibility as your Shires? Maybe. Depends on the Shires configuration and everything else about your setup. Bach bells are most similar to the type 5 bells. They're one piece and have a much different profile than their 2 and 7 bells (which are, incidentally, the most popular of the varieties. They only made a handful of type 3; 1 and 8 are not particularly popular). If you have a Shires with a Type 5 bell, your Bach will likely respond similar to the Shires. If you don't... really hard to say.

As Ben indicated from the quote, the 1.5 leadpipe is most similar. If you have a different pipe you can expect it to respond differently than the Bach slide which may or may not be good. Another option is to take your Bach bell and buy mounting hardware for the Shires setup. I played on such a setup for a few years before switching to a type 2 bell and now I play on something that much more closely resembles a Conn 88. So before you go changing lots of stuff around it might behoove you to see if you can get your hands on some configurations and see if you're assembling something that is your ideal or just incrementally better than what you have!

Thanks, this really helps! I do indeed play a type 5 bell, the Vintage New York Bell in yellow brass with a TYS tuning slide and Trubore valve. I believe the lead pipe in my horn is #2, which I like, but have yet to compare it to the other 2 lead pipes that came with the horn. On my Bach slide, I don’t think my lead pipes are removable if I remember correctly. I am considering at replacing the slide receiver on my Bach bell with a Shires one, but I don’t know if that is more costly than just replacing the part on the slide that connects to the bell.

[Burgerbob]

Have you tried the slide yet? It'll still fit, it just won't screw down all the way. Give it a shot!

[Ndwood]

I've done the opposite and played Bach slides (42, 50) on a Shires tenor bell section for a few years, and on bass I play a Bach 50 with a Shires dual bore slide. I had much better luck fitting a Bach slide on a Shires bell section than the other way around. I'm able to have the Bach slides very stable friction-fit on the Shires bell section, but for my Bach 50 I had the slide receiver swapped out with a Shires one. Bach slide receivers are longer than Shires ones and changing it to a shorter one changed the playing characteristics of my Bach 50 for the better, but I would caution against that as a first plan of action. It's also kind of difficult to get parts from Shires and you might have to wait for a while.

My advice if you want to keep the Bach slide would be to get the leadpipe pulled and replace it with one you know is good, ideally a pipe you can use to test both slides. It very well could just be a pretty not great leadpipe.

Unlike Matt I usually prefer all yellow brass slides with over-sleeves. I think it really helps to know how much resistance you like in a horn and where you prefer that to be. I usually prefer gear on the more open end of the spectrum so a tenor slide with an open-ish leadpipe and bass crook was a good fit, but that extra 3/8" helped maintain some focus without adding the feeling of any resistance. But the shorter Shires slides are standard for a reason, and if your tuning slide isn't very far out you might not be able to get up to pitch with a Bach slide.

[Matt K]

Thanks, this really helps! I do indeed play a type 5 bell, the Vintage New York Bell in yellow brass with a TYS tuning slide and Trubore valve. I believe the lead pipe in my horn is #2, which I like, but have yet to compare it to the other 2 lead pipes that came with the horn. On my Bach slide, I don’t think my lead pipes are removable if I remember correctly. I am considering at replacing the slide receiver on my Bach bell with a Shires one, but I don’t know if that is more costly than just replacing the part on the slide that connects to the bell.

I'd personally change the slide receiver on the bell side. Bach slides fit okay in Shires but as you mentioned, the other way around is a little loose though good for testing. It is more expensive though, or at least it was as of a few years ago. You have to unsolder the lower bell brace and put in a new part. They usually have the lower bell brace brazed to the receiver with the ring already attached. You can order it w/o that but honestly, the brazing is super solid so I'd probably go that route. That's at least two solders... probably more if you have a brace there so I'd expect about ~$100 in labor give or take + the part. I got my part used when I did this so I don't have any frame or ference for cost comparison.

Swapping the tenon isn't that bad either - again as of a couple years ago - I payed about $100 in labor to have a Bach 42 slide swapped to a Shires receiver + the cost of the part which was... $60ish? Market has probably changed but not too drastically.

With all that said you might want to consider trying a TYX tuning slide. That has a taper similar to the Bach 42 and would involve zero surgery!

[Burgerbob]

I should mention that I use entirely not-Bach slides on my bass. I've gone through probably a dozen 50 slides, never found one that has a great sound, playability, and action like my Shires dual bore (yellow/nickel crook) or Edwards V single bore (bronze/yellow crook). I did have the slide tenon changed out on the shires for an Edwards tenon to make using it on a Bach easier.

On tenor, I have found my Bach A47 slide to do almost all the things the boutique slides do (great action, easy to play) but still sounds like a Bach. There's also no removable leadpipe so I'm not tempted to change it!

[ThePousane]

Thanks, this really helps! I do indeed play a type 5 bell, the Vintage New York Bell in yellow brass with a TYS tuning slide and Trubore valve. I believe the lead pipe in my horn is #2, which I like, but have yet to compare it to the other 2 lead pipes that came with the horn. On my Bach slide, I don’t think my lead pipes are removable if I remember correctly. I am considering at replacing the slide receiver on my Bach bell with a Shires one, but I don’t know if that is more costly than just replacing the part on the slide that connects to the bell.

I'd personally change the slide receiver on the bell side. Bach slides fit okay in Shires but as you mentioned, the other way around is a little loose though good for testing. It is more expensive though, or at least it was as of a few years ago. You have to unsolder the lower bell brace and put in a new part. They usually have the lower bell brace brazed to the receiver with the ring already attached. You can order it w/o that but honestly, the brazing is super solid so I'd probably go that route. That's at least two solders... probably more if you have a brace there so I'd expect about ~$100 in labor give or take + the part. I got my part used when I did this so I don't have any frame or ference for cost comparison.

Swapping the tenon isn't that bad either - again as of a couple years ago - I payed about $100 in labor to have a Bach 42 slide swapped to a Shires receiver + the cost of the part which was... $60ish? Market has probably changed but not too drastically.

With all that said you might want to consider trying a TYX tuning slide. That has a taper similar to the Bach 42 and would involve zero surgery!

Thanks for the advice. I’ll look into both options but for right now, I will just friction fit the shires slide on the Bach to test. Also, I don’t know about going down another potential rabbit hole, but regarding tuning slides, you said trying the TX tuning slide. Are Shires tuning slides compatible with Bach bells?

[Burgerbob]

No, Shires tuning slides are not compatible.

[Matt K]

As Aidan indicated, they are not by default; however, if you wanted to make the Bach a donor horn you could put that bell on the Shires to replace the VNY5. I've also seen conversions where the Bach tuning slide was put on a Shires bell but memory serving, they also kept the Bach thayer attached to it more-or-less intact so that you had to have both that specific tuning slide and valve section to use it with the Shires bell. Jim Nova has one such horn that was converted by Steve himself in I want to say the late 90s.

But a TYX tuning slide on the VNY bell might circumvent the need to take a torch out and you could possible sell the Bach and still come out way ahead.