Bass Trombone Trigger set up?

[DakoJack]

What is your bass bone set up 1 or 2 triggers, independent vs dependent, tuning configurment and why?

A lot of controversial opinions from Ben on this one where do you stand?
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1169810/4677467

[WGWTR180]

You will get 5 million answers to this question. There is no one way.

[BGuttman]

Bill is right Get 10 trombonists in a room and you will get 12 answers.

I decided I liked an indy with split triggers. Never looked back. It's a King 7B from the early 1980s.

[tbonesullivan]

If you search this forum and the trombone forum archives, you will find MANY MANY discussions of this.

Here is a good article at Doug Yeo's website: http://www.yeodoug.com/resources/faq/fa ... alves.html

[Bengebasstrombone]

I have had four different bass trombones since I started taking bass seriously. Those basses have been as such:

1970s Olds Superstar. Single valve tuned to F, with pull to E.
Schiller 7B clone. Independent valves, tuned to F and Gb.
1986 Benge 290. Independent valves, tuned to F and Gb with 2nd valve extension in (2nd can be tuned to G without extension).
1976 King 6B Duo Gravis. Dependent valves, tuned to F and D with extension (2nd can be tuned to E without extension).

I currently own the Benge and the King.

I've personally decided I like the independent Bb/F/Gb/D setup most. I like the versatility, and the way things line up below the staff between the valves. Dependent Bb/F/D comes in close second, as the relationships below the staff are familiar, but I lose all those wonderful alternate positions on the 2nd valve (C in t2, Gb/F# in t1, etc).

[DakoJack]

Bill is right Get 10 trombonists in a room and you will get 12 answers.

I decided I liked an indy with split triggers. Never looked back. It's a King 7B from the early 1980s.

Yeah we talked about these a little. Could you tell me if the duo gravis is the 6b or are there somee 7bs that are considered a duo gravis?

[BGuttman]

Duo Gravis was generally applied to a dependent dual. At one time it was called 7B, but more often called 6B (2106). In the late 1970s King intoduced two additional bass models, 7B and 8B. The main difference was the bell diameter. Both were independents in Bb/F/Gb/D. The dual independent was never called 6B or Duo Gravis.

[LeoInFL]

I play on an Olds P-24G (modern 2-trigger layout, independent rotaries). It's a late-70's horn that, from the factory, had the 1st valve tuned to F and the 2nd to G. Having played other independent basses in the past, I prefer Bb/F/Gb/D tuning and fortunately the tuning slides on my Olds can be swapped to achieve exactly that.

For me, the real payoff with that tuning is having the low D in 2nd-valve-only 6th position. It takes no effort from me to get it to sing every single time. It's perfectly in slotted in tune, crystal clear. I've even incorporated that fact into my practice/playing routine: staying right in the 3rd-6th position part of the slide as I run through Cello Suites, etc.

[tbonesullivan]

I will add this, though others may disagree. The most comfortable dual valve bass trombones to play are Yamaha. Their trigger design works perfectly with the "Yeo Grip", and I have never had issues with tension or dexterity. I do not utilize any grip aids or supports.

http://www.yeodoug.com/resources/faq/fa ... nsion.html

[elmsandr]

There are increasingly micro versions of tuning we can discuss... Exactly where is your handslide and exactly where do you like to tune an F, for example. I am not going to go there... plenty of other posts from better players than me there. I'll just talk about some basic things...

Independents are becoming standard. That is, mathematically at least, probably a good thing. That said, I've played a lot of horns as a single, dependent, and independent. Sometimes with physically the same valves. I've preferred the dependent over the independent every time. That said, the difference isn't much with decent valves. I used to care more about that, but the amount of difference isn't enough for anybody that has heard me play to care about.

Speaking of tunings. G > Gb or F. More useful in more situations. That D in the staff is great to have! It really optimizes the length of the slide for things in the staff. BUT, and it is a big BUT, D >>>>> Eb for stuff below the staff. The main reason you have the second valve at all is C and B and the D tuning makes that better and more solid. Sure, you may have a B with a bE tuning, but is it in a place where you can have decent slide technique and ability to move it up and down to fit the chord? Put it in a few inches by tuning to D (or D-ish if you go Bollinger).

I really want to try Bb/bE/G/D some day, but I need another valve section to make that happen. One of these days I'll put one together and make a bunch of different tuning slides so both valves can be all of the above.

So, at the end of all of this, I play mostly on a single or a Bb/F/D dependent. I do have an inline Bb/F/Gb/D , this is a thayer section, so not a great candidate for my monstrosity above, but I have been tempted to make it a dependent.

Cheers,
Andy

[Kevbach33]

I've played on the following basses in my career, including when:

Jupiter 740, independent tuning in Bb/F/Gb/D. 9th grade.
Conn 71H, single valve in F with E pull. HS.
Holton 181, independent tuning in Bb/F/Gb/D with extension in, or Bb/F/G/Eb with extension out. I played this most of the time in HS.
Yamaha YBL321, single valve in F with E pull. College.
Besson 943GS, independent tuning in Bb/F/Gb/D OR Bb/F/G/Eb. This bass has two 2nd valve slides and is the only bass I've actually owned. College to present.

All horns had/have standard rotary valves.

I have not had an opportunity to play a dependent bass.

When I discovered the Holton could be tuned to G, I found it helped for an arrangement of "On the Sunny Side of the Street" by John Clayton. And then I was hooked. G tuning really opens up the 2nd valve on these horns; in fact, so open that I thought the open horn was more resistant. Total placebo. YMWV. That said, I typically play Gb tuning, though the G slide has/had its moments to shine.

And a single bass without E pull needs to be otherwise spectacular before I consider the con of not having E pull.

[modelerdc]

It used to be that manufacturers offered all kinds of tuning for the second valve. E, Flat E, E flat, D, D flat, C, B and in both dependent and independent configurations. Looking at what's offered now there are more models that are independent, and whether independent or dependent the second valve combined with the 1st gives D. Some companies that used to offer horns with both an E flat slide and a D slide now just make them in D only. I think it's safe to say that today the independent B flat, F, and D horn is the standard setup, though some players prefer E flat and/or dependent horns. A few players may still use horns where both valves together give low C or B but these are not very common, and like thumb rollers and glantz bars are leftovers from the early days of double triggers when players did a lot of experimentation.

[Thrawn22]

What is your bass bone set up 1 or 2 triggers, independent vs dependent, tuning configurment and why?

A lot of controversial opinions from Ben on this one where do you stand?
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1169810/4677467

Is there a cliffnotes version where i don't have to waste an hour of my life listening to these two? What can be said that's so controversial about bass bone options and configurations?

[bassbone721]

I use indy setup because I learned to use the second valve by itself very early on and now I use plenty of second valves independently. My bass came with Gb tuning, but I would like to try out F/G tuning but I don't have a valve sectio with that tuning.

[DakoJack]

What is your bass bone set up 1 or 2 triggers, independent vs dependent, tuning configurment and why?

A lot of controversial opinions from Ben on this one where do you stand?
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1169810/4677467

Is there a cliffnotes version where i don't have to waste an hour of my life listening to these two? What can be said that's so controversial about bass bone options and configurations?

Basically Ben's not a big fan of the Duo Gravis and really big on independent over Dependent no reason to waste an hour of your life listening to me. Although in the future if you want to waste an hour of your life we have a whole range of topics weekly just tune in. I get it time is money.

[Hobart]

I for one prefer independent triggers, my trombone teacher's teacher says that if we need two valves we should get as much use out of them as possible. I started with a Gb second trigger on my schools Jupiter 740, and stuck with it on the Holton 181 that replaced it so I wouldn't have to relearn anything. There might be a better setup, but I find that this one works well enough for me.
However, I wouldn't mind trying a non-split dependent horn, or even a single valve horn, as these are often cheap compared to their indy counterparts, especially if the second valve is flat E. It would be an adjustment, but I'd adjust to save at least $1,000.

[Basbasun]

I have used singel, depndent F-Eb, F-Flatt E, F - D, F-Db. Independent F-G,Gb,F. For normal use I personally like singel, dependent F-D. I did like independent F - Gb. The reson I don't use it anymore is that the goseneck is to short witch have some inpakt on the respons. It is however so little that for most player it does not matter. About the King bass, Duo Gravis, I really like that horn, but I cant stan'd the ergonomics. I did not listen to the long link. Life is to short.

[imsevimse]

What is your bass bone set up 1 or 2 triggers, independent vs dependent, tuning configurment and why?

A lot of controversial opinions from Ben on this one where do you stand?
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1169810/4677467

Hi Dakota Jackson!

I think your podcast covered most of the basic aspects of the setups and choices a player needs to do when it comes to decide what horn to get to be most efficient as a player. I agree on most Ben said there.

There was a lot of talk on the "Duo Gravis" and the only thing I did not hear emphasised enough and what is very special with that horn is that the dimension of the valve section is the same as the dimension of the slide. The valve section is not larger as is the case with other basses. It is one thing that makes the sound of that horn so special. You might have mentioned this but it needs to be emphasized. There are also other vintage horns that are choosen for sound. They sound different for other build reasons like the Conn 73H and 62H for example.

When it comes to operate the two triggers by the thumb there are many dependant horns with that concept. More or less easy. The King Duo Gravis, the Conn 73H, 62H, Yamaha 612R and the Holton TR-180 are a couple of examples in my collection with slight different solutions. Also the TR-185 and Holton 169 if you use the optional second valve. Some of these side by side triggers are in front of each other like the Duo Gravis where the second valve is maneuvered by the tip of the thumb. Others like the Conn 73H and Yamaha 612R have rollers. On those you move the thumb to the side and slide over the roller. It was mentioned in the pod. In some cases it works well back and fourth like the Conn 73H and 62H in other cases it is easy in one direction and difficult in the other like on the Yamaha 612R. On the Holton TR-185 you have two "arms" side by side and you have to lift the thumb and release the first valve if you want to go from one to two valves, or you have to be very "elastic" with your thumb and sneak it on that second arm with acrobatics. I can tell you that can work but it is VERY hard and makes all legato between different triggers incredibly difficult. Others have systems with two side by side buttons too far apart to be played smoothly. You also have the Glanz-bar on the TR-180. That one you have to see because my english is not good enough to explain that concept. To me the Glanz-bar is the next best concept to use on a double. Those are all yesterdays horns and belong to the history of double valve setups.

I agree you need a double trigger if this horn will be your only bass trombone and you want to be able to cover all the modern stuff where they had a double in mind. I also think you're first choice should be the split trigger system F-D where the second valve is maneuvered with the middle finger because it has a lot of advances. You get that if you buy a new horn because the other setups are obsolete.

I have never felt the need of an independent setup myself. There have been a couple of patterns where I saw an indi could help better but in the big band where I play I have never played anything that could not be played on a dependant.

I have not enough experience with Thayers and indi basses. I guess the more open valve is there to compensate and give idi basses a more free blow. I need to investigate that more.

When it comes to the single. I have several and use them most of the time. Simply because it is rare I can not play the part on my single and use factitious notes or retune the valve. The only thing I know will give me trouble is the low B if it is sustained and very loud. I know I then need the double.

If I sub with a band and do not know what to expect, then I bring a double or if I know it is that modern bass rep where it is needed, otherwise I use a single.

From what I've found on YouTube there are some incredible bass trombone players who are doing all sorts of marvelous acrobatics solo work. I think for some of that solo rep the independent bass actually is a must.

In case there are some beginners who read this post. There are pedagogical reasons your first trombone with or without a trigger should be a tenor trombone. This is especially the case if you are a small beginner who has a lot to learn. The heavy double trigger is very unnecessary to play the first years. The beginner needs time to learn how to play all the other notes first and at that stage in development the second valve is never needed.

I'm a doubler.

/Tom

[DakoJack]

I've really enjoyed reading everyone's setup and thanks for all the extra info I'm sure we'll do more bass bone stuff in the future ,but I am going to mention some of this at the top of the next one. Thanks for filling in holes for me on the Duo Gravis and other tunings and vintage horn set ups.

[tbonesullivan]

I will say this: I'm still on the Hunt for a good condition Yamaha YBL-613H, as I LOVE the Yamaha ergonomics. It also comes with both a Gb and G crook for the second valve, which I honestly think more should. The G tuning does honestly have some bonuses over the Gb tuning.

1st position D? First position G? Sign me up. I hope that most companies offer the option of having a G or Gb crook again.

[Dennis]

The earliest double valve bass trombones that I am aware of were made by Earl Williams and F.E. Olds in 1930s. Both had stacked valves tuned Bb/F/E. The Olds used a pair of stacked levers not too dissimilar from the King Duo Gravis configuration. The Olds used a mechanical linkage and the level of the triggers was not adjustable. The Williams' second valve was not accessible while playing: it was a small step forward from an E pull.

Neither instrument proved very popular. John Noxon or (maybe) Noah Gladstone might be aware of approximately how many were made, I am not. I would be surprised to learn it was more than single digits for either. It appears that they were built for use in the Hollywood studios when sound came to the movies. The tenor-bass trombone has always been misunderstood by non-trombonists composers and arrangers. They have an annoying tendency to treat the instrument as chromatic from the pedal E (or today, lower). As we are all aware, the B ( 8vb) is absent and the C ( 8vb) is nearly missing on a Bb/F trombone. (NB: It's okay to use those notes, but please give us the courtesy of time to pull to as flat an E as we can.)

That's where things sat until the mid-1960s. Kahilo (working with Reynolds) in Boston and Kleinhammer (working with Holton) in Chicago got tired of having to do stupid trombone tricks to be able to do what composers wanted. The result was stacked double valve basses tuned Bb/F/E. Conn and Bach followed suit not long after. All extant original instruments had side-by-side trigger arrangements. King was relatively late to the game with the Duo Gravis (designed with input from Alan Raph). If you hate the arrangement of the Duo Gravis triggers, you can hold Alan Raph responsible. Optional Eb and D slides followed shortly from all manufacturers.

In line arrangements were developed in the late 1960s by Burt Herrick and Larry Minick in Los Angeles. Olds followed suit with the first production in line instruments (the S24G and later the P24G). Bach and Conn and Holton followed with their own in line instruments in the mid to late 1970s. Tuning of the second valve varied from D to Db.

The period from about 1965 to 1980 was a time of experimentation and change in double valve bass trombone tuning, valve layouts, and lever layouts. If production instruments can tell us the consensus of the working pros (and I think they can), the consensus that emerged was that Bb/F/D tuning with split triggers was best. The in line vs stacked valve debate continues. Note that all major manufacturers build both in line and stacked valve bass trombones. No one builds the old side-by-side trigger systems any more. (If I owned a Duo Gravis or a 62/72H or a Holton 180 with a Glantz bar or a pre-split trigger Bach 50B2 that I liked I would not hesitate for a moment to have a good tech split the triggers. There is no shame in bringing a tool from an experimental period up to date.)

Stacked valves have a couple of distinct advantages: with split triggers, the player can engage the finger valve without the F valve. This allows very smooth slurs from the Bb horn to the D horn: no great coordination is needed. The stacked valve horn also has a short gooseneck that allows the designer some options for tapers to help with adjusting partials.

In line horns have the (big) advantage of having access to the second valve without engaging the F valve.

For beginners I believe that the first trombone should be a Bb tenor. Students interested in the bass should start with a Bb/F single valve bass. There is nothing in the high school accessible literature for wind bands and orchestras that requires a double valve bass. (Jazz ensemble is a different thing entirely. Anything written after about 1965 having a bass trombone part will likely require a double.)

[Dennis]

Oh yeah. You asked about my bass setup:

I started out on an Olds single with in-slide tuning. From there, I went to a 72H single. Both were school horns. In college I picked up a 50B2 Bb/F/Eb with side-by-side triggers, which I got rid of in grad school.

About 20 years later I bought a used 50 with in line OE Thayer valves serial numbers 15 and 16. It was trashed in a burglary while I was gone on vacation. With the homeowners' insurance payout I bought my current bass, a 50T3G Bb/F/bG.

When I don't need a howitzer to frighten the reeds and the wire choir, I plug a 1½G into my Shires large bore tenor. I'd like to pick up a single valve bass, but I'm in no hurry.

[BrianAn]

May I ask where you guys found that Bart Varselona's bass trombone was actually a tenor? The story is familiar to me, besides just that part (fun fact: Stan loved the bass trombone so much he even offered Varselona to help pay it off.)

I will say this: I'm still on the Hunt for a good condition Yamaha YBL-613H, as I LOVE the Yamaha ergonomics. It also comes with both a Gb and G crook for the second valve, which I honestly think more should. The G tuning does honestly have some bonuses over the Gb tuning.

1st position D? First position G? Sign me up. I hope that most companies offer the option of having a G or Gb crook again.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/it ... 556605287/

This listing has been around for a while for pretty cheap. Looks like it only has the G attachment though? The 613 isn't being sold anymore so you might be pressed to find a Gb attachment if you want one.

[JohnL]

May I ask where you guys found that Bart Varselona's bass trombone was actually a tenor? The story is familiar to me, besides just that part (fun fact: Stan loved the bass trombone so much he even offered Varselona to help pay it off.)

Bart Varsalona played King Symphony model. At least that's what he's playing in these pictures:
https://allthingskenton.com/table_of_co ... personnel/
(the f-attachment wrap is distinctive).

It's a big tenor or a small bass, depending on your point of view, and was the biggest trombone in the King catalog until the Duo-Gravis was introduced.

[Posaunus]

https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?t=8737

[Basbasun]

misunderstood by non-trombonists composers and arrangers. They have an annoying tendency to treat the instrument as chromatic from the pedal E (or today, lower). As we are all aware, the B ( 8vb) is absent and the C ( 8vb) is nearly missing on a Bb/F trombone. (NB: It's okay to use those notes, but please give us the courtesy of time to pull to as flat an E as we can.)


In line arrangements were developed in the late 1960s by Burt Herrick and Larry Minick in Los Angeles. Olds followed suit with the first production in line instruments (the S24G and later the P24G). Bach and Conn and Holton followed with their own in line instruments in the mid to late 1970s. Tuning of the second valve varied from D to Db.

Well, there three ways to meet the low B "problem". Often you have time to read through the music and if you see a low B you pull the attachment. If you did not see it, you can either lip it down from the low C position or use a false tone tone on the low Eb position. If you are good at it, witch many players where, you will get a good low B. I do that still, but I am old and soon not playing any more.

The inline set up was first only use on contrabass trombone (under the name cimbassotrombone) the first ibline for "tenorbass" was made by Georg Strucel, that idea was latter used on Olds.

Sorry to be pickky!

[Basbasun]

May I ask where you guys found that Bart Varselona's bass trombone was actually a tenor? The story is familiar to me, besides just that part (fun fact: Stan loved the bass trombone so much he even offered Varselona to help pay it off.)

Bart Varsalona played King Symphony model. At least that's what he's playing in these pictures:
https://allthingskenton.com/table_of_co ... personnel/
(the f-attachment wrap is distinctive).

It's a big tenor or a small bass, depending on your point of view, and was the biggest trombone in the King catalog until the Duo-Gravis was introduced.

That horn was often used as basstrombone, and worked very good at that. The same as Bach 45.

[Finetales]

Speaking of tunings. G > Gb or F. More useful in more situations. That D in the staff is great to have! It really optimizes the length of the slide for things in the staff. BUT, and it is a big BUT, D >>>>> Eb for stuff below the staff.

Which brings us back to that triple dependent bass thread that we had back on the old Forum. That was fun!

Anyway, I like indys. I went right from a straight trombone to a Bach 50B3O when picking up bass trombone, so I learned both valves at once. I leave my Gb slide all the way in, as sharp as it will go. I like the Gb/Db to be a bit out from 1st position, and the C/F to be close to 3rd. For whatever reason I prefer different slide targets for those notes instead of lining them up with an open position.

I'd like to try G tuning but I've never played a bass that has it.

I love a good single (and played one as my main bass trombone for quite a while), but I can't get along with dependents.

[Dennis]

Speaking of tunings. G > Gb or F. More useful in more situations. That D in the staff is great to have! It really optimizes the length of the slide for things in the staff. BUT, and it is a big BUT, D >>>>> Eb for stuff below the staff.

I'd like to try G tuning but I've never played a bass that has it.

I love a good single (and played one as my main bass trombone for quite a while), but I can't get along with dependents.

I think it depends on what you learned on. If you start out with an in-line, stacked valves are awkward. I think that is mostly because you hit the finger valve and expect a Gb (or a G or a flat-G) to result. If you're on a stacked horn, nothing happens.

And it cuts the other way, too. If you're used to stacked systems, you expect to be able to go straight from Bb to D by dropping the finger valve first. Of course, if you do that on an in-line horn the tubing comes in immediately. Ooops.

It took me a while to get used to in-line when I switched. Fortunately, my first model 50 had side-by-side triggers. I didn't have muscle memory to unlearn for the finger valve.

[Dennis]

The inline set up was first only use on contrabass trombone (under the name cimbassotrombone) the first ibline for "tenorbass" was made by Georg Strucel, that idea was latter used on Olds.

Sorry to be pickky!
[/quote]

I know Strucel was working in LA in the 1960s.

I also know that Herrick and Minick were producing in-line Bb/F/G basses before Olds came out with their production model. A friend of mine at CSU Northridge had one of Herrick's conversions in 1974. It was not the first one Herrick made.

What I don't know is whether Herrick and Minick got the idea from Strucel, and whether Olds got the idea from Herrick's custom jobs (usually on Conn 71H singles) or from Strucel. Unfortunately, the people who have that knowledge are gone.

[modelerdc]

One thing that never gets mentioned in this topic about bass trombone trigger set ups is doubling tenor trombone. If you play tenor trombone the valve is almost always in F. On bass there are several different tunings for the second valve, G and G flat being the most common. If you play the independent valve bass using the G or G flat valve most of the time instead of the F valve, then it's going to be harder to use the F valve when you play tenor. Same situation applies for playing a single trigger bass. Those that only play independent double trigger bass trombone, all or most of the tim, can use the independent valve as much as they like, and G or G flat both work. But everyone else might be better off with a less is more approach to the second valve.

[deanmccarty]

Over the past 40 years that I have been playing bass trombone I have had just about every different combination that has been available:
Dual Dependent standard rotors (King Duo Gravis) pretty stuffy, but what a sound
Dual Independent standard rotors (Conn 112H) nice sound, more open than the King
Dual Independent standard rotors (Olds S-24) very stuffy
Dual Independent standard rotors (Blessing B98) horrible
Dual Independent K-Valves (Bach 50K3) very open nice horn, not a good commercial sound
Single standard rotor (Olds S-22) nice commercial sound, limited use
Shires Dependent Greenhoe valves - open player, good all-around instrument, not great at legit or commercial, but adequate
Shires Dependent Axial Flow valves - hated it (maintenance was crazy and didn’t play as well as the Greenhoes)
Shires single standard rotor - fantastic orchestral instrument, very open.
Rath Dependent Rotax valves - best instrument I have ever played on. Extremely open and focused excellent in all styles.

When trying out Rath and Thein, I really wanted to like the Hahmann valves, but they just didn’t work for me on the bass... not so on the large tenor... the Rotax option worked great for me in the dependent setup.

The point of this post is to show... that not even with the same person does one way on every brand work. Everyone’s sound concept is different, physical makeup, etc. what works for me may not work for anyone else. Try out as many combinations that you can... be patient... and find the exact fit for you. Many people love Axial Flow valves, I hate them. I didn’t like the way they felt when I played, and the maintenance is a headache. After MANY years I have found the perfect setup for me. Rath makes fantastic instruments... but there are several fantastic companies out there. Try everything, and don’t make a snap decision.