Re: Brand "New Start"

simonm2903 · Post by **simonm2903** » Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:00 am

Dear musicians

Finally, after 8 years, I would like to return to the music, to my big desire - the trombone

For over 18 years I played trumpet in a brass orchestra and a big band, I have always wanted to play either trumpet or trombone.

A couple of years ago I got seriously ill and I was forced to leave the music ,I recovered after a hard fight and 2 years of hospital, everthing went smooth thanks God. And now of course, I really want to go back to the music.

I decided to switch trumpet with trombone,a wish from my childhood, preferably a bass trombone or a tenor with a quarter valve (for lower section)
Please advice, where to start, which trombone would you advise me up to a budget of 2000 EUR (around 2400 USD) ??
What literature would you recommend to me? Conductor of my orchestra. he will be happy to help me. at least that's what he says.

I would prefer a bass trombone but reading the forums on this website, I see that it is not recommended to start with a bass trombone. what do you think ?

Many thanks to everyone

P.S. sorry for my english

Post by **BGuttman** » Wed Aug 26, 2020 7:24 am

A trombone with a Quart Valve (F-Attachment) is probably a better start. If you are used to trumpet, a straight trombone (no valve) is probably closer. The 7 positions correspond with the usual combinations of 3 valves. The F-attachment and the second valve of a bass trombone will complicate things. Best to learn a straight trombone first, then move to the F-attachment, and go to bass if you really are into it.

For 2000 Euros you should be able to find a pretty nice trombone with F-attachment. Especially if you are willing to consider used.

As to what method books, there are more than you can possibly play. For a start I'd consider the venerable Rubank series. Then consider using Arban's (which is available in bass clef, but your trumpet version can work as well). Many of your favorite trumpet methods have been transcribed to bass clef to enable you to work on things like sonority. One thing you will need as a classical player (especially in a full orchestra) is clefs. Trombones read bass clef, transposed treble clef (like a trumpet), tenor clef, and alto clef. The Blazhevich School for Trombone (available for free on IMSLP) has exercises that jump between bass, tenor, and alto clef -- probably more than you will ever encounter in an orchestral part, but if you can handle them you can handle any part you may encounter in the real world.

Hope this helps.

ArbanRubank · Post by **ArbanRubank** » Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:13 am

Rubank series, followed by Arbans.

Vegasbound · Post by **Vegasbound** » Wed Aug 26, 2020 10:57 am

Find. The her no have some lessons, your progress will be quicker and correct

simonm2903 · Post by **simonm2903** » Thu Aug 27, 2020 12:16 am

Vegasbound wrote: ↑Wed Aug 26, 2020 10:57 am Find. The her no have some lessons, your progress will be quicker and correct

hi , i dont understand you, what do you mean ?

i would like to thank you all for your advices, ill try to download those lesons. I have Arban methods for trumpet but will tak a look for trombone too.

What about to start straight bass trombone without using valve at the beginning ....?

Since im very happy with my Bach Stradivarius 37 trumpet , I am looking for some Bach trombone, but as I see there are people who suggest Conn,Getzen,Edwards,Courtois,Yamaha,Shires, Holton, King ...

Im totaly lost , too many brands and i dont know what to look for , there are too many types , models...

Its best to look for some used trombone or a new one and if yes what do you think which one for tenor with f attachment or bass trombone ?

What would You choose if you want to invest 2000 EUR in one of those type of trombones?

Ill appreciate some suggestion about that too please, thank You all for your advices.

Kind regards

Post by **BGuttman** » Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:15 am

I'm sorry you are confused.

Sure. You can get an F-attachment trombone and begin not using the F-attachment. Seems to be the way a lot of the kids start these days. The nice thing about the F-attachment is if your arms are a bit too short to reach 6th or 7th positions, the F-attachment puts them near the mouthpiece. But you should avoid getting in a habit of using the F-attachment all the time.

Is there a reason you specified a bass trombone? From a practical standpoint there is no difference between a single valve tenor trombone or a single valve bass trombone; one is bigger than the other and uses a larger mouthpiece. The larger mouthpiece will make high notes harder to play but you won't see much difference in your lower register in the beginning.

There are other trumpets that are good quality. Not everybody plays Bach trumpets. As to trombone brands, at one time we tended to standardize on Bach, King (mostly smaller bores), and Conn. Some others liked Holton, Olds, and Reynolds (all of which are no longer made). Yamaha makes trombones of remarkable consistency -- you don't have to work through a pile of them to find the one that works best for you like Bach.

There are some custom instruments (much like Monette, but less expensive): Edwards, Rath, Shires. I don't recommend these as first instruments. In fact, you probably couldn't buy one of these for only 2000 EUR.

You will get more trombone for your money with a used trombone. You should be able to find a good tenor or bass trombone with one valve (F-attachment) at your price point. Look for some of these models:

Symphonic Tenor (13.2 mm bore, almost Bass sized):
Bach 42B
Conn 88H
Getzen 1047
Holton TR-150, 158
King 4B, 5B
Yamaha 648, 682, 620

Bass Trombone (14 mm bore):
Bach 50B
Conn 70H, 72H, 110H
Holton TR-185
Yamaha YBL-321, 421
(I don't know of any single valve Getzen or King bass trombones)

Hope this helps.

Vegasbound · Post by **Vegasbound** » Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:54 am

simonm2903 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 27, 2020 12:16 am
Vegasbound wrote: ↑Wed Aug 26, 2020 10:57 am Find. The her no have some lessons, your progress will be quicker and correct
hi , i dont understand you, what do you mean ?

i would like to thank you all for your advices, ill try to download those lesons. I have Arban methods for trumpet but will tak a look for trombone too.

What about to start straight bass trombone without using valve at the beginning ....?

Since im very happy with my Bach Stradivarius 37 trumpet , I am looking for some Bach trombone, but as I see there are people who suggest Conn,Getzen,Edwards,Courtois,Yamaha,Shires, Holton
Im totaly lost , too many brands and i dont know what to look for , there are too many types , models...

Its best to look for some used trombone or a new one and if yes what do you think which one for tenor with f attachment or bass trombone ?

What would You choose if you want to invest 2000 EUR in one of those type of trombones?

Ill appreciate some suggestion about that too please, thank You all for your advices.

Kind regards

That should have said, find a teacher, have some lessons and your progress will be quicker and correct

simonm2903 · Post by **simonm2903** » Fri Aug 28, 2020 6:22 am

Thank You for your advices, particularly to Mr BGuttman , ill try to find the prices first for an instrument You adviced me
Thanks

Vegasbound · Post by **Vegasbound** » Fri Aug 28, 2020 6:34 am

Contact DJ Kennedy he has a wide selection of horns

simonm2903 · Post by **simonm2903** » Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:17 am

Vegasbound wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2020 6:34 am Contact DJ Kennedy he has a wide selection of horns

nice, ill do it

Thanks

simonm2903 · Post by **simonm2903** » Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:32 am

Elow · Post by **Elow** » Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:34 am

Good price ish, but 36 is kind of a less used model You can probably find a 42 is the same condition for the same or even lower price. Also look for yamaha 548s, they are great horns and about half the price of a 42 used.

MagnumH · Post by **MagnumH** » Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:35 am

A good (emphasis on good!) Bach 36B is an excellent horn, and it’s often touted as the best all-rounder you can buy. It’s comfortable in all settings from jazz to commercial to light classical, especially if you have a couple different mouthpiece options. The only thing I might not recommend it for is full orchestral - it’s a smaller bore (.525 rather than .547) than the majority of classical horns, so it might not blend well. And it won’t function as a bass in the same way either.

I believe NeoBri on this forum had one for sale recently for a similar price, and if he says his is good, it’s good - might be worth getting in touch with him!

simonm2903 · Post by **simonm2903** » Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:52 am

I want to close this post here

Moving to :

(Classifieds) Instruments & Parts

Thanks my lovely musicians

whitbey · Post by **whitbey** » Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:39 am

The tendency for a new to the horn player is to buy a smaller cheaper horn. then get a 547 nicer horn.

My suggestion for an adult player with reasonable financial means and with the difficulty of trying horns these days is different. I have had two friends do this and were glad they did.

First buy a pbone. They play good enough to get over the hump of figuring out the horn. As you learn to play, probably quickly because of your previous skills you will want a nice horn and have opinions about what you want. Probably a 547 horn. I have had 3 friends I recommended this. Two bought nice 547 horns with in a month or two and were happy with the horns they got. The 3rd decided against the trombone and got a euphonium.

All kept the pbone just because.

simonm2903 · Post by **simonm2903** » Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:28 am

I am negotiating with an orchestra to borrow a trombone with valves fr a month or two, since the trumpet has the same positions, it might be good to try it for that period ..... I don't know

Post by **BGuttman** » Sat Aug 29, 2020 9:19 am

Valve trombone (no slide, just 3 valves like a trumpet) is often a good way for trumpet players to learn to play trombone, although you still need to learn slide at some point.

Using a valve section (like a valve trombone) with an F-attachment doesn't work well because the valves are "hard wired" for a Bb instrument and the 4th valve makes the instrument in F so all the valves are too short. Similar problem for non-compensating 4 valve Euphonium.

simonm2903 · Post by **simonm2903** » Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:16 am

I thought about that yes, just to make a sense / feeling of the sound of trombone, how it works with breathing etc etc,
Aftr that, i will consider only slide trombones, willing to learn it.
Hope its not too late, im 40 y/o.
Maybe as you advice me, it will be better to take a tenor without f attach maybe,
ive found a Yamaha Tenor Trombone Yamaha Xeno, 881G for 1700 EUR..... shippment included.
Im totaly confused now !! but willing to start and learn at my 40 y/o

Elow · Post by **Elow** » Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:28 am

Why do you want a professional grade instrument? I would get a conn 50h for like a third of that price and learn to play on that and learn how to take care of that so that you don’t completely wreck your nice horn. A yamaha 448 or even 548 will serve you well and they’re a lot cheaper once you want to upgrade

simonm2903 · Post by **simonm2903** » Sat Aug 29, 2020 11:47 am

Consider me as a instrument "freak", I know that and understand Your point ...

Post by **BGuttman** » Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:57 pm

Elow, he played trumpet before his medical problems and is no kid. He won't trash a pro grade horn.

On the other hand, finding a pro grade horn at his price point is less easy; especially new.

Simonm, it's never too late to start (except maybe when you have terminal COPD and can't blow into the horn any more).

You should be able to find a really nice straight trombone for a lot less than 1700 Euros, though. Some to look for:

Yamaha 641, 647, 681, 610
King 4B
Bach 42
Conn 8H

(all large bore - 13.8 mm)

If you are willing to go to medium bore (13.2 mm):

Bach 36
Benge 175
Conn 78H
King 3B Plus (2125)
Yamaha 645, 683, 630

I know it's confusing, but sorting through the various Bach trumpet models can be confusing as well. How many variations of the 37 are there, anyway?

Posaunus · Post by **Posaunus** » Sat Aug 29, 2020 1:29 pm

A Bach 36B would be quite a nice trombone for Simonm. Fully professional instrument, versatile, pretty robust, easily serviced, should hold its value. Don't believe Elow's "advice" about preferring a Bach 42. In fact, I prefer the Bach 36B to most Bach 42 models.

Elow · Post by **Elow** » Sat Aug 29, 2020 2:59 pm

If he’s was wanting to maybe play bass, then i would think a 42 would do him more good than a 36. Also, the price of that 36 was a bit higher than most i thought. There’s a 36 in the classifieds for less i think.

olivegreenink · Post by **olivegreenink** » Sat Aug 29, 2020 6:58 pm

ArbanRubank wrote: ↑Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:13 am Rubank series, followed by Arbans.

Total aside. But can we appreciate my surprise of ArbanRubank saying it should essentially be RubankArban? lol

Also FWIW, would echo the 36B. Occasionally in life there are items that are middle-of-the-road enough (in a good way) to do many things really well. The 36 is not a lead jazz horn or bass trombone, but it sure does a pretty solid job pretending at both. I’d be curious if others here would include other .525 trigger trombones in the mix. But Bach is a sound choice for trombones as it is with trumpets.

As someone who also just returned to music after a 10-15 year, welcome back.

Cheers